Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

An Ciarraioch

judeboy101 wrote: »

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Of course he didn't the future relationship is still to be negotiated. I'm confused as too your point?

This one https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/758556/22_November_Draft_Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_framework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_EU_and_the_UK__agreed_at_negotiators__level_and_agreed_in_principle_at_political_level__subject_to_endorsement_by_Leaders.pdf

Only the WA has legal effect.

judeboy101

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Only the WA has legal effect.

No parliament can enact laws that bind a subsequent parliament.

Zubeneschamali

judeboy101 wrote: »

No parliament can enact laws that bind a subsequent parliament.

Yes, and the WA is about what this parliament does.


Pay up, treat EU citizens in the UK a certain way and refrain from anything that imposes a hard border.


It is the Future Relationship (yet to be negotiated, but the subject of 26 pages of waffle which is causing ructions in the UK at the moment) which is in the, well, future.

irishash

May has ruled out having another referendum, saying the same as a lot of other tories - Undemocratic, will of the people, brexit means brexit........yada, yada, yada.

But when it comes to the vote on the WA by the house of commons, wont rule out a second vote - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46394431

Just another example of why they don't care a bit about democracy and only about their own agendas.

Peregrinus

judeboy101 wrote: »

No parliament can enact laws that bind a subsequent parliament.

No parliament can enact laws that bind even itself. Whatever they enact today, they can enact the complete opposite tomorrow.

And this isn't unique to Westminster; it's equally true of the Oireachtas. The Oireachtas can be bound by the people, via a provision inserted into the Constitution, but it's not bound by itself. Anything it enacts today it can un-enact tomorrow.

But so what? While as a matter of UK law parliament may have the right to smash any treaty that the UK enters into, as a matter of international law the UK will be in breach of its treaty obligations if it does that, and will be exposed to various sanctions under international law, plus loss of credibility, reputation, status and bargaining power. All of which are very good reasons why, despite the fact that UK law give Parliament the power to cause the UK to breach its treaty obligations, Parliament very rarely exercises that power.

So, if Parliament ratifies the Withdrawal Agreement and it enters into force, the fact that Parliament has the power to breach the Withdrawal Agreement doesn't in practice mean a great deal. And if, as the Political Declaration envisages, the UK and the EU negotiate a future relationship agreement and that enters into force, same goes.

RobMc59

listermint wrote: »

You have spent the last 4-5 days saying 'some on here' 'Views on here' I think there was an echo chamber or two thrown into the mix.

As has been pointed out before. This is an Irish form and will have an Irish viewpoint and perspective on how Brexit will impact Ireland specifically.

You dont speak for the british point of view, but your politicians do. They are elected to speak on your behalf. Now you either like it or loath it but the Polticians that were voted in by British people are speaking with a laissez faireF attitude to Ireland as if it didnt exist. Some i would garner wish it didnt at all.

So whilst there might be 2 sides to every story . Your own government and the ministers in it - the highest power in the land have 1 side of the story and its very much Anti Ireland.

So im tired of the spouty stuff about this thread being an echo chamber. We call it as we see it in this Country. If you live here you would know that about Irish people.

I've had differences of opinion with other posters but I've also learned a few things from this forum-some UK news channels(BBC especially)and newspapers are blatantly biased-I've also learned the UK political system has serious faults.So I think it's helped broaden my horizons and see other points of view and opinions..can you say the same in your intransigence and prejudices ?

LeinsterDub

judeboy101 wrote: »

No parliament can enact laws that bind a subsequent parliament.

Awh I understand now. Thinly veiled we are going to be stabbed in the back again.

UsedToWait

RobMc59 wrote: »

.can you say the same in your intransigence and prejudices ?

Are you accusing
- the poster
- this forum
- Irish people in general
of the above?

From your posts recently, it's hard to tell.

listermint

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've had differences of opinion with other posters but I've also learned a few things from this forum-some UK news channels(BBC especially)and newspapers are blatantly biased-I've also learned the UK political system has serious faults.So I think it's helped broaden my horizons and see other points of view and opinions..can you say the same in your intransigence and prejudices ?

Which ones are those specifically?

Can you point them out?


Ive lived abroad and travelled to over 60 Countries. So what specifically are my prejudices? detail them.


Or is this you continuing in the theme of the 'poor us' 'treat us with more respect' theme that you feel you are not getting on the thread.

Ive read your posts and ive read the responses to them. The notion that there isnt Balance on this thread is in a nutshell Rubbish!.

And its you that continues the theme that is not balanced with zero to back it up. I dont know why you do it buy you do, daily.

UsedToWait

^It is true that some posters have expressed a wish that could be summarised:
'If yiz are going to jump, bloody get on with it,' and perhaps a bit of schadenfreude which our friend seems not to realise is common amongst colonised / previously colonised people when their oppressor runs into a bit of bother.

It certainly hasn't been excessive, imo - most debate in here is backed up with rational arguments.
More than can be said of the level of debate we have seen from across the water.

Alun

robinph wrote: »

Maybe those potential British posters, who by definition of knowing about boards are probably more pro EU than the rest of the UK population, are just sitting around with their heads in the hands dispairing of what is going on around them.

Speaking as an actual Brit, living here for the last 17 years, I despair of the situation in my home country too. Mind you, I've felt that way for a long time now, almost as far back as 1980 when I left to move to the Netherlands. Every time I went back to visit I felt a little less "at home" and now I couldn't move back there for love or money. It's just sad really.

First Up

LeinsterDub wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

No parliament can enact laws that bind a subsequent parliament.

Awh I understand now. Thinly veiled we are going to be stabbed in the back again.

Stabbed in the back by who?

Frank Bullitt

I'm in the midst of listening to Question Time (I'm living in Canada).

I lose more and more sympathy for Britain with each round of applause that they lies get.

Infini

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1014374/

Tusk basically laying down the cold hard reality: Reject the agreement and the only options are Remain or Crash Out for the UK.

Capt'n Midnight

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is very close to being a rogue state the way it is going, leaderless and rudderless. It has lost it's it's way and doesn't seem to have a leader to lead.

And in the background there's a steady encroachment on privacy.

The Human Rights Watch and the Electronic Frontier Foundation have requested the US Department of Justice, to quit sharing data with a certain human rights-violating surveillance regime.

I liked this comment
..if the US(!!) has concerns about this what are the chances that we will get a data adequacy agreement with the EU post-Brexit?

Also it's failing to ensure proper oversight of its mass surveillance programmes, according to the European Court of Human Rights.

Stuff like the Snooper's Charter won't help future UK-EU data transfers.

Strazdas

Alun wrote: »

Speaking as an actual Brit, living here for the last 17 years, I despair of the situation in my home country too. Mind you, I've felt that way for a long time now, almost as far back as 1980 when I left to move to the Netherlands. Every time I went back to visit I felt a little less "at home" and now I couldn't move back there for love or money. It's just sad really.

For what it's worth, I think the whole Brexit phenomenon may be on borrowed time. British Euroscepticism has had a virtual free ride for the last 20 years, but as a result of bringing everything to a head in 2016, for the first time ever they are under intense scrutiny and having to fight off serious criticism.

The next five years will be fascinating for Britain. The free ride they and their many supporters in the press got is over and we're into whole new territory.

Water John

But the EU are also saying that if the fundamentals of what UK is looking for altered, either CU or part SM it would be different. Accept that the present discussions are concluded. This is the most EU will get from the EU with UK's present stance.

funkey_monkey

Infini wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1014374/

Tusk basically laying down the cold hard reality: Reject the agreement and the only options are Remain or Crash Out for the UK.

Should have come out and said this sooner instead of allowing it to fester for so long.

BonnieSituation

funkey_monkey wrote: »

Should have come out and said this sooner instead of allowing it to fester for so long.

Why did he have to say it at all?

Strazdas

Water John wrote: »

But the EU are also saying that if the fundamentals of what UK is looking for altered, either CU or part SM it would be different. Accept that the present discussions are concluded. This is the most EU will get from the EU with UK's present stance.

Yes indeed, people are missing the point that the EU are saying that if the Tories try to water down the WA, they are wasting their time.

But if the UK came back to them and said it wanted to rip up the customs union agreement and instead be a full member of the Single Market, that would be an entirely different matter.

funkey_monkey

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why did he have to say it at all?

Because those opposed to the WA are looking to back and alter the terms - whether that be change tact for a Norway style deal or to remove the backstop or other concessions.
They have been allowed to rabbit on in the press about this for days and it gets ingrained in peoples minds that they can do this when a simple statement like this would have nipped it in the bud.

Although, to be fair I'm not sure those opposed to the WA have any intent to listening to what the EU has to say whether it be good, bad or indifferent.

Seth Brundle

irishash wrote: »

May has ruled out having another referendum, saying the same as a lot of other tories - Undemocratic, will of the people, brexit means brexit........yada, yada, yada.

But when it comes to the vote on the WA by the house of commons, wont rule out a second vote - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46394431

Just another example of why they don't care a bit about democracy and only about their own agendas.

In fairness to her, she is yet to have her agreement accepted or rejected by parliament so why would she suddenly look for another referendum?

RobMc59

listermint wrote: »

Which ones are those specifically?

Can you point them out?


Ive lived abroad and travelled to over 60 Countries. So what specifically are my prejudices? detail them.


Or is this you continuing in the theme of the 'poor us' 'treat us with more respect' theme that you feel you are not getting on the thread.

Ive read your posts and ive read the responses to them. The notion that there isnt Balance on this thread is in a nutshell Rubbish!.

And its you that continues the theme that is not balanced with zero to back it up. I dont know why you do it buy you do, daily.

Posters have said they can`t get past the 800 years of abuse and occupation at the hands of the British,fair enough, that is understandable.
Your outraged themed reply of-"how dare you!" to my earlier post leads me to believe you can`t get over what has happened in the past but just won`t admit it.
As far as me having a`poor us` or `treat us with more respect`attitude -utter waffle.In the many happy times I`ve spent in Ireland with friends and family I have unfortunately encountered people who have a problem with me purely because I`m British-even been pulled up by an "unofficial checkpoint" on the back roads of Dundalk because I`m British-It has`nt stopped me going to visit friends and family. .If the moderators say I should`nt post on here because I`m abusive or offensive,fair enough-but you won`t stop me just because you think only Irish people should post.

funkey_monkey

irishash wrote: »

May has ruled out having another referendum, saying the same as a lot of other tories - Undemocratic, will of the people, brexit means brexit........yada, yada, yada.

No she hasn't depending on your source and their interpretation:

Asked in a BBC interview if she would seek a second vote,she declined to answer directly, repeating her comment that she was only focusing on the 11 December vote.

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1014374/

Zubeneschamali

Infini wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/amp/1014374/

Tusk basically laying down the cold hard reality: Reject the agreement and the only options are Remain or Crash Out for the UK.

He would say that.


I think that the WA is set, but the Political Declaration is just waffle, and the future relationship could be nearly anything from North Korea to Norway++.

Tell me how

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

He would say that.


I think that the WA is set, but the Political Declaration is just waffle, and the future relationship could be nearly anything from North Korea to Norway++.

Obviously this is a holding pattern for the moment as the ball is in the UK hands.

Won't stop them saying they expect the EU to come up with alternatives mind.

Infini

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

He would say that.


I think that the WA is set, but the Political Declaration is just waffle, and the future relationship could be nearly anything from North Korea to Norway++.

Honestly he's saying that probably because this is the true endgame. Thats all that you can negotiate so either accept it, end this brexit farce or crash out at your own folly. The other reason he might be saying this is because at this point it if they cant make up their minds no deal becomes default and the true damage controls begin as they prepare for this.

Zubeneschamali

Infini wrote: »

Honestly he's saying that probably because this is the true endgame. Thats all that you can negotiate so either accept it, end this brexit farce or crash out at your own folly.

Eh, no, nobody believes that, not even him.



No Deal Brexit is bad for the EU, so of course they will do what it takes to avoid it.


Norway and Sweden have been in "temporary" deals for more than 20 years, no reason Brexit shouldn't drag on at least that long, or become a similar half-way permanent state.

LeinsterDub

First Up wrote: »

Stabbed in the back by who?

Judeboy is expecting the EU to stab us in the back any minute now.

A Dub in Glasgo

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Judeboy is expecting the EU to stab us in the back any minute now.

It has been any minute now for quite a few months :pac:

wolf boy the cried who