No Irish Carbon tax...wah wah wah

Buford T. Justice XIX

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Which it won't achieve since the average Joe has no control over the vast majority of emissions.

Private transport makes up a surprisingly small proportion of emissions in Ireland, it's just the ubiquity of the car that gives the impression that it is. The average car spends somewhere between 95-99% of it's time parked up.

If we want to get real about emissions we need to stop growing the national herd and close Moneypoint and the peat burning power stations. Carbon tax on the average citizen won't achieve much in the overall scheme of Irish emissions.

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The whole food miles thing has been overblown, there's a study somewhere which largely shows its not that big in the scheme of things. Cattle on the other hand are - the amount of energy which is required from birth of calf to cow meat on a plate is enormous. Just the business of raising cattle on grass is very environmentally high - sure it looks good but looks are deceptive and as we've seen over the last year with the cold wet winter and hot dry summer the amount of supplementary foodstuffs they need to be fattened up is very large and logistically challenging.

Whatever one thinks of vegans (!) they are definitely more planet friendly than omnivores in terms of diet. What they consume has a far low carbon footprint esp as the green stuff they eat converts CO2 into O2 unlike cattle and other meats which consumes O2 (grass and breathing in) and creates CO2 (farts, poo and breathing out)

It's not quite as clear cut as that, I'm afraid.

http://ar5-syr.ipcc.ch/topic_summary.php


From that graph above, Agricultural emissions have fallen. But the huge increase in CO2 levels seen today are caused by the massive increase in energy demand and consumption outside the farmgate. The devices we're typing on, the servers providing access 24/7, the lights in our houses, our modern conveniences are all requiring energy to provide.


Agriculture has a role to play in mitigating co2 level rises but, despite the talking heads simplistic analysis, people have to look at their own demands for energy.



I'm wondering how soon people will start complaining if they get their demands and have internet access but little to eat? Because that situation isn't that far off with reductions in useable land, environmental restrictions on the use of it and climate change reducing yields.


The days of readily and cheaply available food are approaching their end, I think.

gozunda

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The whole food miles thing has been overblown, there's a study somewhere which largely shows its not that big in the scheme of things. Cattle on the other hand are - the amount of energy which is required from birth of calf to cow meat on a plate is enormous. Just the business of raising cattle on grass is very environmentally high - sure it looks good but looks are deceptive and as we've seen over the last year with the cold wet winter and hot dry summer the amount of supplementary foodstuffs they need to be fattened up is very large and logistically challenging.
Whatever one thinks of vegans (!) they are definitely more planet friendly than omnivores in terms of diet. What they consume has a far low carbon footprint esp as the green stuff they eat converts CO2 into O2 unlike cattle and other meats which consumes O2 (grass and breathing in) and creates CO2 (farts, poo and breathing out)

Incorrect. Vegan diets are not locally sustainable. Cheap imported foodstuffs from around the world are used in place of locally produced and seasonal produce. The biggest problem with the vegan movement is the amount of propaganda pushed to convince others that it's right. It's not. Many consider veganism to be more akin to a religion than a lifestyle tbh.

See:
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/vegan-betrayal-the-myths-vs-the-realities-of-a-plants-only-diet/

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/veganism-environment-veganuary-friendly-food-diet-damage-hodmedods-protein-crops-jack-monroe-a8177541.html

It remains that the transport sector and fossil fuels are sigificantly a lot more responsible for GHG's emissions and the use of non renewable resources than all types of agriculture globally. It's funny that veganism largely ignores these issues

4068ac1elhodqr

Plant a whole load of trees, job done.

Ireland has the lowest foresty and broadleaf coverage of all European states (except for the smaller, barren, island states).
Even the UK (which has about x10 the population density) has plenty more national parks, forests and woodland areas.

If you want to blame anyone blame the Euro car makers (one group in particular) who falsified figures and said diesel are 'grand like'.
Eventually the EU will force everyone to go 'electric' (not a bad thing), and perhaps even at some stage later, to use 'auto-bot' mode for all motorway driving.

Feisar

elperello wrote: »

You do know that vegetables grow in Ireland don't you?

Even lentils (god bless the mark!). Not so easy to grow but can be done.

I do know that.

My point being that the vegan diet can't be sustained on local produce, draw a twenty mile circle around your home and show me how a vegan diet can be sustained.

BoJack Horseman

Feisar wrote: »

I do know that.

My point being that the vegan diet can't be sustained on local produce, draw a twenty mile circle around your home and show me how a vegan diet can be sustained.

- Mushrooms
- Grass
- Leaves
- Sucking moss off of rocks


All of nature's bounty

whisky_galore

gozunda wrote: »

The biggest problem with the vegan movement is the amount of propaganda pushed to convince others that it's right. It's not. Many consider veganism to be more akin to a religion

Any meat promotion on FB from Super Valu, Lidl etc you'll nearly always get a 'meat is murder' type post crowbarred in. No wonder they're so hated. If you don't like it, just fcuk off, unfollow or don't comment. Holier than thou commentary is never well received.

Pkiernan

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

- Mushrooms
- Grass
- Leaves
- Sucking moss off of rocks


All of nature's bounty

You forgot hunting rabbits and deer. That's kind of vegan.

Harry Palmr

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I'm wondering how soon people will start complaining if they get their demands and have internet access but little to eat? Because that situation isn't that far off with reductions in useable land, environmental restrictions on the use of it and climate change reducing yields

Surely taking cattle off the land makes sense then? A cow per acre is a massive use of finite land resource.

and grass rearing is not good for the environment.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/blow-for-grass-fed-beef-as-new-report-suggests-its-part-of-the-climate-problem-not-solution-36209259.html

The days of readily and cheaply available food are approaching their end, I think.

This has to change - we're eating better (in calorific terms) for an ever shrinking amount of money - about 10% of the industrial wage down from over 30% 4 decades ago. And yet people complain about food being expensive! It clearly can't continue in this path but the supermarkets will be the last to tell you this and will be the last to admit defeat when that time comes.

EdgeCase

Ireland needs to put in proper transit infrastructure. You can’t just borrow the tax side of French, Dutch or Scandinavian style political approaches to reducing carbon emissions without also installing their level of alternative infrastructure.

We could also do a hell of a lot more to retrofit buildings with energy saving materials and solar panels and all of those things.

We should be trying to move Irish farming up the value chain in a big way. I don’t under why we are exporting cheap, powdered milk and cattle on the hoof to very low end markets. Irish diary and beef should be all high value added and less focus on trying to compete on cheap bulk generic stuff. It makes absolutely no sense economically or environmentally. It may even be costing us money to produce it when you look at the subsidies and the impacts on the environment and then fines and purchasing carbon credits.

I see bits of a policy but there’s no follow through or big picture.

We are headed for crashing all of our CO2 emission agreements and it will have financial implications and that’s entirely down to being all talk and no action.

gozunda

whisky_galore wrote: »

Any meat promotion on FB from Super Valu, Lidl etc you'll nearly always get a 'meat is murder' type post crowbarred in. No wonder they're so hated. If you don't like it, just fcuk off, unfollow or don't comment. Holier than thou commentary is never well received.

Interesting - havn't see those promotions. The weirdest bit is that a number of the big thinkers behind veganism are promoting not only their belief that "Meat is murder" (sic) but also that all wild carnivores should be eradicated because they are causing suffering to other wild animals - unfortunately it's not surprising thats this kind of baloney is the outcome of that type of belief

blinding

If human beings elected much less corrupt politicians it would be a good start .

When the system is systemically rotten at the top then minor tinkering at the bottom is going to make little difference .

jmayo

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

...
I'm wondering how soon people will start complaining if they get their demands and have internet access but little to eat? Because that situation isn't that far off with reductions in useable land, environmental restrictions on the use of it and climate change reducing yields.


The days of readily and cheaply available food are approaching their end, I think.

It would be interesting research project to carry out to show energy consumption growth in average household between say 1950 and today.

Hell if some school kid has a parent working in likes of SEAI they could do it as project for young Scientist with good chance of winning

I remember as a kid in 70s and 80s that when travelling in countryside at night you were usually greeted with darkness.
Now most feckers have their houses, gardens and yards lit up like it was the Eiffel Tower.
Oh and before some spanners complain about one off housing I am also talking about people on edges of towns and villages.
See how much light there is in all those housing estates.

Now of course the counter argument will be that the bulbs are now way more energy efficient, but that kinda just blunts the demand because we are really talking about hugely increased quantity.

And don't get me started on the feckers who think they are Yanks and have not alone taken to mimicking Law Vegas at Christmas, but now also at Halloween.

All of that adds to the energy consumption.

It is now getting unsustainable for farmers as the inputs costs are increasing and prices are remaining stagnant and not rising at all.

EdgeCase wrote: »

We should be trying to move Irish farming up the value chain in a big way. I don’t under why we are exporting cheap, powdered milk and cattle on the hoof to very low end markets. Irish diary and beef should be all high value added and less focus on trying to compete on cheap bulk generic stuff. It makes absolutely no sense economically or environmentally. It may even be costing us money to produce it when you look at the subsidies and the impacts on the environment and then fines and purchasing carbon credits.

Can you please explain what you mean by "high value added" ?

Is it a bit like the term about knowledge or smart economy and just a fancy buzzword ?

The way I see it you have to have a mix.
You can't just say a huge chunk of farmers are going to be breeding buffalos for mozzarella or rearing kobe beef animals because there simply isn't the market.

It was like years ago where famers were told to go into alternative enterprises like rabbit rearing or deer farming.

Only issue with that is they are niche markets and once oversupply, prices plummet.

And in case you haven't noticed most people want cheap food, not high value food and our single biggest market at the moment is under threat.

gozunda wrote: »

Interesting - havn't see those promotions. The weirdest bit is that a number of the big thinkers behind veganism are promoting not only their belief that "Meat is murder" (sic) but also that all wild carnivores should be eradicated because they are causing suffering to other wild animals - unfortunately it's not surprising thats this kind of baloney is the outcome of that type of belief

I think the solution is to drop these people in Northern Canada and Greenland.
Then the poor Polar Bears can feed on them, not have to worry about shrinking iceflows and the poor seals will be spared.
And the added environment bonus is that there are less people in the world.

Feisar

blinding wrote: »

If human beings elected much less corrupt politicians it would be a good start .

When the system is systemically rotten at the top then minor tinkering at the bottom is going to make little difference .

Voting for people in it's very nature is flawed. If I were a politician I'd be thinking well, how am I going to keep this lot happy so they vote me in again?

That's a far cry from what's the best for these people/this world.

blinding

Feisar wrote: »

Voting for people in it's very nature is flawed. If I were a politician I'd be thinking well, how am I going to keep this lot happy so they vote me in again?

That's a far cry from what's the best for these people/this world.

Can we have Internet Democracy ? If it could be made to work we could dispense with Corrupt politicians who are responsible for so many of our problems .

topper75

topper75 wrote: »

Lentil farts - now that is something I don't want in my atmosphere, whatever the weather.

Can you imagine them all those bowlfuls fermenting and churning in his fibre-fest gut through the week and then a cloud of arse-belch following him around everywhere he goes. You could almost see a very faint pale yellow 'aura' coming of the back of him.

And all the while ... he thinks HE'S right.

Chloro Farto Carbons (CFCs) also deplete the ozone layer

I think

Buford T. Justice XIX

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Surely taking cattle off the land makes sense then? A cow per acre is a massive use of finite land resource.

and grass rearing is not good for the environment.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/blow-for-grass-fed-beef-as-new-report-suggests-its-part-of-the-climate-problem-not-solution-36209259.html

For Fowlers sake, Harry, a link from copy-and-paste.com? :pac: I'd hope their journalistic output is superior to their proof reading skills but, no, they aren't. From the 'article'..

That said, it stress the it does not follow that intensive production systems offer a better alternative.

Tbh, I was expecting a Monibot whingefest:p

It's quite easy to demonstrate carbon sequestration in play, Harry. I'm sure you'd be familiar with grass verges overgrowing their concrete kerbing. That happens because the energy from sunlight is used to create organic matter in the soil from grass leaves dying and being consumed by the microbiota and increasing the soil levels over time. Nothing added to the soil but sunlight, it's visible in every urban environment.


And cropping the soils will only lead to whatever organic matter present in the soil being utilised by the microbiota to supply nutrients to the crops being grown. Eventually, in a 100% tillage environment, the soil organic matter levels fall so low as to make cropping unviable without increasing levels of artificial fertiliser being used to support yields. Until the organic matter levels eventually get so low as to make any cropping non viable and the time frame for that is low, maybe as low as 10 years for some soils up to 50 years(and that would be stretching the potential viability).



Interestingly, it takes about 500 years to produce an inch of topsoil but a decade or two will easily take an inch of topsoil under tillage.



The only widescale possibility to prevent that crash is grassland which will have to be utilised somehow. And what better way than to use the animals that use it best

This has to change - we're eating better (in calorific terms) for an ever shrinking amount of money - about 10% of the industrial wage down from over 30% 4 decades ago. And yet people complain about food being expensive! It clearly can't continue in this path but the supermarkets will be the last to tell you this and will be the last to admit defeat when that time comes.

It's not even food that's causing the massive jump in greenhouse gasses being emitted, it's all the ancillary activities of man. As jmayo referenced, the levels of energy needed for us to carry out the most 'basic' of activities in the 2010s is a few orders of magnitude greater than that needed even 20 years ago, never mind 40 years ago.


But the basic attitude of someone else has to reduce their emissions because Joe and Mary Average refuses to reduce theirs isn't going to change anytime soon.

Feisar

Just ran a carbon footprint check thing, I'm about twice the Irish average, pretty daunting.

Recycling a few cans and plastic bottles seems like a drop in the ocean now.