Charlie Haughey - Yay or Nay

gk5000

Haughey, a self-serving stopped clock with some charisma.


He was around long enough so he had to do some good, but mostly he was just looking after himself and his cronies, and power for himself at all costs.


But he had some sort of personal charisma / lovable rogue so people lapped him up and still do. Mind you the opposition was pretty crap at the time.

Roger Hassenforder

Zebra3 wrote: »

He was a criminal and should have gone to jail.

He should be dug up and put in jail

Working class heroes

Ah he deserved all he got in Game of Thrones.

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

dxhound2005 wrote: »

New Zealand.

marieholmfan

I don't think we know the half of it with Haughey. I am sure that he was personally involved in the Heroin trade for example and he may have been responsible for having Veronica Guerin killed. He definitely had something to do with the Stardust disco tragedy.

JupiterKid

An utterly corrupt bully and a symbol of everything that was wrong and bad about Ireland in the 1980s. Anyone trying to overlook his corruption is a complete fool and idiot.

Working class heroes

marieholmfan wrote: »

I don't think we know the half of it with Haughey. I am sure that he was personally involved in the Heroin trade for example and he may have been responsible for having Veronica Guerin killed. He definitely had something to do with the Stardust disco tragedy.

And JFK?

Lifted himself from nothing to the top through charisma, brains, effort, hunger, wiliness. Let the country go to f'cuk in the early 80s when he failed to follow up on his famous "tighten the belts" speech but got a grip on things in the late 80s after Fine Gael dithered about between '83 and '86. A man with few scruples. A weird and interesting guy.

Outlaw Pete

I'm from Swords and the old Kinsealy Rd used to be a death trap, filled with potholes, until that is a few months after his son built and moved into a new house on it and the , right up to just two feet after his gates, the road was suddenly newly repaired and tarmaced.

marieholmfan

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

I'm from Swords and the old Kinsealy Rd used to be a death trap, filled with potholes, until that is a few months after his son built and moved into a new house on it and the , right up to just two feet after his gates, the road was suddenly newly repaired and tarmaced.

Which son? The castrato or the idiot?

dirtyden

Deleted User wrote: »

I know there's still a lot of anger with Bertie- some of it I understand, some of it I don't;- Haughey was many times worse than Bertie ever was.

Bertie was not as good at the old corruption as haughey, but he was utterly corrupt all the same.

We know of some of the dig outs he received from his builder and developer ‘friends ‘. There is almost certainly so much more that we don’t know about. He lied blatantly in front of the Mahon tribunal about not having bank accounts, winning fortunes on a horse he could not remember the name of. He even invented his qualifications. An utterly untrustworthy man.

nullzero

Anyone who endured the Ireland of his reign wouldn't entertain giving him a pass. The utter hypocrisy of the man, he was an out and out gangster.

dxhound2005

dirtyden wrote: »

Bertie was not as good at the old corruption as haughey, but he was utterly corrupt all the same.

We know of some of the dig outs he received from his builder and developer ‘friends ‘. There is almost certainly so much more that we don’t know about. He lied blatantly in front of the Mahon tribunal about not having bank accounts, winning fortunes on a horse he could not remember the name of. He even invented his qualifications. An utterly untrustworthy man.

Under his leadership FF won enough votes in three elections to stay in power from 1997 to 2011. That is a record bettered only by Dev. So the people must have thought he was doing something right.

Yer Da sells Avon

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

I'm from Swords and the old Kinsealy Rd used to be a death trap, filled with potholes, until that is a few months after his son built and moved into a new house on it and the , right up to just two feet after his gates, the road was suddenly newly repaired and tarmaced.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjl8OIZijjY

marieholmfan

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Under his leadership FF won enough votes in three elections to stay in power from 1997 to 2011. That is a record bettered only by Dev. So the people must have thought he was doing something right.

Now the same people get to die on trolleys in crumbling hospitals. Good enough for them? NO!

Corrupt, selfish, devious prick.

But strange to think that if MI5 had succeeded in their attempt to have him assassinated that he'd probably be remembered as a patriot, a martyr, a great honourable Republican! :pac:

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

i watched the 1hr primetime documentary on him from 1997: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZaEZREMpqc

it claims his average supporter down the country was shocked at the bribery claims and he lost support with them. was it not an open secret in the 80s that he was crooked?

applehunter

Flawed character but he had a vision for Ireland.

I don't see anyone in Irish politics that compare now.

marieholmfan

applehunter wrote: »

Flawed character but he had a vision for Ireland.

I don't see anyone in Irish politics that compare now.

Dennis O'Brien , Christy Kinahan?

harry Bailey esq

Creative83 wrote: »

I think Charlie did some good for the country when he was in office... the IFSC

Agreed, so what if he took a few bob along the way, he was a clever c*nt and he was a master in the art of negotiation, Pulled Ireland into the modern world. Back to brown envelopes, I don't call it bribery. I view it as greasing the wheels.

Creative83

Creative83 wrote: »

I think Charlie did some good for the country when he was in office

Christ almighty OP, I sincerely hope you're either joking or trolling here.

Speaking as someone who lived through the reign of King Charles the first, let me tell you that anyone who wants to revive the mis-rule of that thundering kleptomaniac in any way shape or form, either wasn't born, has a short memory, or got rich on the proceeds of collaborative crime.

It was like living in a country run by a sort of sh!t Bond villain, plundering Ireland like it was his personal medieval fiefdom.

Creative83

Deleted User wrote: »

Christ almighty OP, I sincerely hope you're either joking or trolling

Wow, nice way to cherry pick and take the entire OP out of context

duffysfarm

I agree. The Israelis are not terrorists!

Zebra3 wrote: »

People defending their homeland from foreign colonisation are not terrorists.

Ulysses Gaze

applehunter wrote: »

Flawed character but he had a vision for Ireland.

I don't see anyone in Irish politics that compare now.

And that's not a bad thing, that's a good thing.

jmayo

Creative83 wrote: »

I think Charlie did some good for the country when he was in office... the IFSC project for example & his devotion to trying to find a way to solve the problems in Northern Ireland.

You mean the IFSC project that majorily benefited one of the businessmen that used to fund his lavish lifestyle ?
The same businessman that in 2004 claimed his friend, the very corrupt politician, was "a man of vision".

Creative83 wrote: »

The free for all benefits he doled out did help an awful lot of people at the time (free travel for pensioners, medical cards like confetti for example) though these have bitten us in the ass now... they can't realistically be taken away from even the wealthiest in Irish society without political suicide.

...
So would you give him a pass on his good deeds or sink him on corruption alone?

haughey was a lying theiving corrupt backstabbing bast***.

You can tell a lot about man by the people he surrounds himself with.
He had padraig flynn, ray burke, bertie ahern as close colleagues and promoted them to high office.

And if you really want to see the mark of this man see how he dealt with his long term close ally, brian lenihan.
haughey stole from the fund to help his dying friend.

His legacy was multiple tribunals of enquiry into corruption, a very close relationship between rich businessmen and politicians that ultimately led to the failure of our entire indigenous banking sector and the saddling of every taxpayer of this country for generations with massive private sector debt.
The fallout from his, and his lackies, distortion of planning is still being felt today and will be felt for many generations.

Fook him and fook his apologists.

machiavellianme

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

He was the poster child for modern cryonism.

He tied to oust the leader of the party with a Coup.

He had Bertie signing blank cheque books for him.

His practice of give away budgets for politically expediency has done untold damage

His cynacism knew no bounds.

He took credit for the hard work of others.

He was corrupt and everyone knew it which legitimised it.

It will take many many generations to fix.

In Iceland they jailed the politicians and the bankers. Here they retired and protected them.

Thats his legacy.

What? He's not dead and is just on ice?
Better turn off the power supply and make sure he's properly gone.
Good riddance!

marieholmfan

jmayo wrote: »

And if you really want to see the mark of this man see how he dealt with his long term close ally, brian lenihan.
haughey stole from the fund to help his dying friend.

Is that actually true; who the hell keeps voting for his kid after that?

jmayo wrote: »

His legacy was multiple tribunals of enquiry into corruption, a very close relationship between rich businessmen and politicians that ultimately led to the failure of our entire indigenous banking sector and the saddling of every taxpayer of this country for generations with massive private sector debt.
The fallout from his, and his lackies, distortion of planning is still being felt today and will be felt for many generations.

Not to mention the current trolley crisis which dates from his time and the fact that one of the reasons for our rubbish infrastructure is the abolition of rates.

Sometimes I think the best way to get the country back on track would be to cut off pensions and healthcare to all FF voters.

keano_afc

I grew up in his constituency, and to say he had God-like status is an understatement. My grandparents had no time for him, but they voted Fianna Fail because of Charlie's record of getting so many people in the area employed. I remember doing going on a school tour to the Dail and seeing him in the chamber and just being in awe of him. He had a presence, thats for sure.

LuckyLloyd

Deleted User wrote: »

I know there's still a lot of anger with Bertie- some of it I understand, some of it I don't;- Haughey was many times worse than Bertie ever was.

A reminder:

Ahern has admitted that he did receive money but said on being interviewed that:

"What I got personally in my life, to be frank with you is none of your business. If I got something from somebody as a present or something like that I can use it".

What Ahern said in 1996, while in opposition:

"The public are entitled to have an absolute guarantee of the financial probity and integrity of their elected representatives, their officials and above all of Ministers. They need to know that they are under financial obligations to nobody". (December 1996)

Six days after the payments were publicised, Ahern admitted in a television interview that he had received two payments totalling IR39,000 (50,000) in 1993 and 1994. Ahern regarded the money as a loan, but he conceded that no repayments had at that time (September 2006) been made and no interest has been paid. He said that he had attempted to repay it, but that his friends would not accept repayment. He claimed that he had broken no codes ethical, tax, legal or otherwise.

On 28 November 2007, former NCB managing director Padraic O'Connor at the Mahon Tribunal, "directly contradicted Mr Ahern's claims that long-standing friends gave him a loan just after Christmas 1993."

In the same interview, he also claimed that he received a payment of 8,000 from a group of 25 businessmen in Manchester on one occasion. He stated that this money was again unsolicited, that it was a gift and therefore not subject to tax as it had been received when abroad, and that it was paid to him after he gave an after-dinner speech at an ad hoc function. He claimed that the money was given to him as a private citizen, not to him in his then role as Minister for Finance, and that no other payments were received by him after speaking at other similar functions. The Irish Times reported on 30 September 2006 that part of this payment was actually a cheque drawn on NCB Stockbrokers, a large Irish company. In its final report, the Mahon tribunal found that, contrary to his sworn evidence, no 'dig-outs' in 1993 and 1994 were arranged to give money to Mr Ahern and that large dollar and sterling cash lodgements were made to his bank accounts in the mid-1990s. A number of his benefactors have received appointments as directors of State boards. Insisting that no favours had been offered or received, Ahern said:

"I might have appointed somebody but I appointed them because they were friends, not because of anything they had given me".

Under the Standards in Public Office Commission's rules,

"State appointments should be made on the basis of merit, taking into account the skills, qualifications and experience of the person to be appointed".

Members of Dail Eireann must conduct themselves:

"in accordance with the provisions and spirit of the Code of Conduct and ensure that their conduct does not bring the integrity of their office or the Dail into serious disrepute".

The Mahon Tribunal report was made public on 22 March 2012. It found that "much of the explanations provided by Ahern, as to the source of the substantial funds available to him, were deemed by the Tribunal to be 'untrue'". While the report did not accuse Ahern of corruption, it stated that it totally rejected his evidence and that of related witnesses about the sources of monies in his own and related bank accounts, and that Ahern failed to truthfully account for a total of IR165,214.25 passing through accounts connected with him.

In 1993, the then Taoiseach Albert Reynolds and Ahern, who was then Minister for Finance, wrote to developer Owen O'Callaghan seeking a substantial donation. At the time O'Callaghan was heavily involved in lobbying for state support for a stadium project at Neilstown, County Dublin. According to the report, O'Callaghan felt compelled to donate a sum of IR80,000 to Fianna Fail to get funding for the stadium. The Mahon Tribunal said it did not find the payment to be corrupt. However, the report said pressurising a businessman to donate money when he was seeking support for a commercial project was "entirely inappropriate, and was an abuse of political power and government authority"

In September 2011, Ahern said he believed that he would have "done all right" in the presidential election but for the decline in the popularity of Fianna Fail. Ahern confirmed he considered running in the election. "I still would have done all right. I mean they have done some figures and I would probably sit in around 30 per cent, which you haven't a hope with as the party is on 20 per cent." He added that "the party popularity is the thing that snookers it, because if your party isn't winnable..." Mr Ahern said: "If there was no downturn and if it wasn't all the hassle of the tribunals and everything else, then you could have had a good run at it." He predicted that "nobody is going to win it outright like Mary McAleese had it won on the first count". Asked about a possible future candidacy in the following presidential election, he said: "Normally what happens in this country, if a president does a good job they stay on, so that's 14 years, so that ends any chance that I'll have." He also rejected suggestions that the Mahon tribunal would reject the evidence he gave on his personal finances. "The only thing that is important to me is the central allegations. And what the tribunal says about the other trash is irrelevant." Michael Martin said the former taoiseach was "out of touch with reality" if he believed he could have won the presidency for Fianna Fail. Martin also said expenses paid to Mr Ahern in his capacity as a former taoiseach were too high and should be reduced. He was commenting on reports that Mr Ahern had claimed 265,000 for "secretarial services" and 7,500 on mobile phone bills since he stepped down in May 2008. Under the current expenses regime, a former taoiseach may employ two secretarial assistants for up to five years after leaving office and one indefinitely after that.

The anger relates to the fact that he had a completely entitled and arrogant attitude to public service and felt he had an ingrained right to trade political favours for personal cash. He is completely unapologetic about any of this despite it coming out via the tribunals at great expense to the exchequer. He (and Haughey before him) was a stain on public life in this country, devaluing the offices he held and ultimately eroding faith in the democratic process. A selfish cretinous man.

demanufactured

Meh.