Will Bus Connects take cars off M50

jos_kel

Hi,
I currently commute from Lucan to Sandyford on the M50 by car.
Until recently the company was in the city centre, so the bus commute was a lot less stressful.
Will bus connect connect place like lucan, tallaght and Dublin west to Sandyford and Dublin South.
TIA

Dravokivich

I doubt it.

jos_kel

Dravokivich wrote: »

I doubt it.

Would probably make too much sense

L1011

Some of the orbitals will have some impact. Citywest and the Baldonnell industrial estates get much better connected for instance

OldMrBrennan83

It will make sure mine is on the road even more now as I'll drive in to the city and use a multi storey rather than take a couple of buses in.

For any orbital stuff or stuff out around the M50, car always. No contest.

Dravokivich

Well, the thing with Bus Connects is, that it's setup to encourage transfers. You'll be able to do that journey you were thinking of, without going to town, but you'd be doing so many transfers, you'd be better off going through town, or trying to transfer onto the Luas Greenline.

jos_kel

Dravokivich wrote: »

Well, the thing with Bus Connects is, that it's setup to encourage transfers. You'll be able to do that journey you were thinking of, without going to town, but you'd be doing so many transfers, you'd be better off going through town, or trying to transfer onto the Luas Greenline.

Sorry I’m confused. How would this make it easier to get from Lucan to Sandyford.

OldMrBrennan83

jos_kel wrote: »

Sorry I’m confused. How would this make it easier to get from Lucan to Sandyford.

I think you really should have done the thread title "How will Busconnects affect getting from Lucan to Sandyford" rather than "Will Bus Connects take cars off M50".

cgcsb

jos_kel wrote: »

Hi,
I currently commute from Lucan to Sandyford on the M50 by car.
Until recently the company was in the city centre, so the bus commute was a lot less stressful.
Will bus connect connect place like lucan, tallaght and Dublin west to Sandyford and Dublin South.
TIA

If you are commuting from Lucan to Sandyford, Busconnects will give you the option of taking the W4 to Tallaght and the S8 to Sandyford, avoiding the City Centre entirely.

certainly bus connects will give the car much more of a challenge as a mode for orbital journeys such as yours. I think cars for radial journeys are more less finished. Certainly under bus connects there'll be a sufficient number of car bans in the city centre to make a regular radial car commute unbearable.

cgcsb

Patww79 wrote: »

It will make sure mine is on the road even more now as I'll drive in to the city and use a multi storey rather than take a couple of buses in.

For any orbital stuff or stuff out around the M50, car always. No contest.

Under bus connects, I can't see how a suburb-City Centre journey would require more than one change?

with cars banned from the quays, Parliament st and George's st, I don't see many people sticking with the car.

cgcsb

Dravokivich wrote: »

Well, the thing with Bus Connects is, that it's setup to encourage transfers. You'll be able to do that journey you were thinking of, without going to town, but you'd be doing so many transfers, you'd be better off going through town, or trying to transfer onto the Luas Greenline.

he'll only need to change once in Tallaght for a Lucan-Sandyford journey.

OldMrBrennan83

cgcsb wrote: »

Under bus connects, I can't see how a suburb-City Centre journey would require more than one change?

with cars banned from the quays, Parliament st and George's st, I don't see many people sticking with the car.

It won't take more than one change, it will take one change. Which is one more than it takes now so I'd rather just bring the car.

Dravokivich

cgcsb wrote: »

he'll only need to change once in Tallaght for a Lucan-Sandyford journey.

Depends on where. As each area is focused by local feeder routes to hubs.

cgcsb

Patww79 wrote: »

It won't take more than one change, it will take one change. Which is one more than it takes now so I'd rather just bring the car.

Ok, but with more and more car bans on City streets to accommodate faster buses and bicycle journeys, the length of a peak hour car trip will become unbearable for most. Also at present the NTA and DoT are considering ways to discourage such journeys, taxing companies that provide staff parking in a certain area will probably be a preferred option rather than a flat out congestion charge.

CatInABox

cgcsb wrote: »

Ok, but with more and more car bans on City streets to accommodate faster buses and bicycle journeys, the length of a peak hour car trip will become unbearable for most. Also at present the NTA and DoT are considering ways to discourage such journeys, taxing companies that provide staff parking in a certain area will probably be a preferred option rather than a flat out congestion charge.

I can also easily imagine that once BusConnects is bedded in, the price of parking, both on street and in multi stories will be increased. Not massively to start out with, but steadily increased over a number of years.

Coupled with automated enforcement of bus lanes, it'll provide enough of a deterrent to make more people consider the bus.

dashcamdanny

I doubt Bus Connects will even exist. At least nothing like the current balls up they have proposed.

And not for years.

cgcsb

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I doubt Bus Connects will even exist. At least nothing like the current balls up they have proposed.

And not for years.

It's a pretty solid plan. Only a handful of notable negative consequences. 92% of commuters will retain direct buses to the City Centre, and gain improved orbital access and everyone will benefit from improved frequency. The small issues e.g. Donebate and xpresso services can easily be corrected.

OldMrBrennan83

cgcsb wrote: »

Ok, but with more and more car bans on City streets to accommodate faster buses and bicycle journeys, the length of a peak hour car trip will become unbearable for most. Also at present the NTA and DoT are considering ways to discourage such journeys, taxing companies that provide staff parking in a certain area will probably be a preferred option rather than a flat out congestion charge.

If they're banned they're banned fair enough, have to stick with the rules. But if they're not then I'll be in a car if at all possible once this starts.

jos_kel

cgcsb wrote: »

If you are commuting from Lucan to Sandyford, Busconnects will give you the option of taking the W4 to Tallaght and the S8 to Sandyford, avoiding the City Centre entirely..

Thanks, I guess it’s too early to guesstimate how long such a commute would take.
Currently it can take 40 to 90 minutes by car depending on various factors.
Consistency of duration would be an improvement

Zebra3

cgcsb wrote: »

Under bus connects, I can't see how a suburb-City Centre journey would require more than one change?

with cars banned from the quays, Parliament st and George's st, I don't see many people sticking with the car.

There’ll always be the heroes....

cgcsb

Patww79 wrote: »

If they're banned they're banned fair enough, have to stick with the rules. But if they're not then I'll be in a car if at all possible once this starts.

It wont be possible to drive on the quays for a good stretch, or george's st and a whole host of other streets will have car lanes converted to bus and cycle lanes. So while your journey by car may be technically possible, the time penalty and financial penalty will be quite extensive. Why would drive a journey that can be completed quicker and cheaper by bus?

cgcsb

jos_kel wrote: »

Thanks, I guess it’s too early to guesstimate how long such a commute would take.
Currently it can take 40 to 90 minutes by car depending on various factors.
Consistency of duration would be an improvement

The Lucan to Tallaght leg of the journey should be pretty fast due to continuous bus lane. Say 15-20 mins. The Tallaght - Sandyford leg goes through some narrow roads at places, that could take about half an hour. Purely at a guess.

redfacedbear

cgcsb wrote: »

Why would drive a journey that can be completed quicker and cheaper by bus?

Pat is convinced that the changing of bus will make the journey by public transport untenable. Given that his interchange is Blanchardstown SC he might not be wrong - if the route re-organisation elements of BC precede the infrastructural elements/bus lanes etc.

cgcsb

redfacedbear wrote: »

Pat is convinced that the changing of bus will make the journey by public transport untenable. Given that his interchange is Blanchardstown SC he might not be wrong - if the route re-organisation elements of BC precede the infrastructural elements/bus lanes etc.

The suburban interchanges will likely be built first, before any road widening due to their importance and the ease with which land ownership can be dealt with compared to road widening.

Alkers

Patww79 wrote: »

It won't take more than one change, it will take one change. Which is one more than it takes now so I'd rather just bring the car.

What's so bad about having to change busses once?

doolox

Possibly for 10-15 minutes unless bus frequency is increased on present system.

Stephen15

Patww79 wrote: »

It will make sure mine is on the road even more now as I'll drive in to the city and use a multi storey rather than take a couple of buses in.

For any orbital stuff or stuff out around the M50, car always. No contest.

You live in Dunboyne right? Just wondering why you wouldn't you use the train instead of going by bus is that not a quicker and easier option.

Isambard

the M50 will still be full of people who believe many of the other drivers should take the bus.

Jellybaby1

We regularly have to drive to Cathal Brugha St from Harold's Cross with large boxes of equipment in the car. There is no way we could take a bus. How would we be able to continue this journey if they prevent cars driving on the quays?

OldMrBrennan83

cgcsb wrote: »

It wont be possible to drive on the quays for a good stretch, or george's st and a whole host of other streets will have car lanes converted to bus and cycle lanes. So while your journey by car may be technically possible, the time penalty and financial penalty will be quite extensive. Why would drive a journey that can be completed quicker and cheaper by bus?

Quicker and cheaper doesn't necessarily mean better. Having a one bus trip just pushed it over the edge of being preferable to a car but not having that makes sitting in your own car a better prospect.

Simona1986 wrote: »

What's so bad about having to change busses once?

Because that one change will be at Blanchardstown Center which will resemble something from a Tokyo train station.

Stephen15 wrote: »

You live in Dunboyne right? Just wondering why you wouldn't you use the train instead of going by bus is that not a quicker and easier option.

The train leaves you (well me, for where I'd be going anyway) in such a place that you'd need to be finding further transport anyway.

cgcsb

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

We regularly have to drive to Cathal Brugha St from Harold's Cross with large boxes of equipment in the car. There is no way we could take a bus. How would we be able to continue this journey if they prevent cars driving on the quays?

Through an extensive diversion no doubt. Maybe around the canals and in via Summerhill I'd imagine.

cgcsb

Patww79 wrote: »

Quicker and cheaper doesn't necessarily mean better. Having a one bus trip just pushed it over the edge of being preferable to a car but not having that makes sitting in your own car a better prospect.

Speed, cost, geographic convenience and reliability are the most important factors when considering modal choice. Other factors are changing, socio economic class, educational attainment, psychology, weather, number of interchanges and a whole host of other reasons. If BusConnects can improve speed and reliability to a large degree, an additional interchange won't act as a deterrent. When calculating mode choice and mode utility speed and reliability will get weighted at 10, interchange is often rated as a -2, or even -1.

OldMrBrennan83

cgcsb wrote: »

Speed, cost, geographic convenience and reliability are the most important factors when considering modal choice. Other factors are changing, socio economic class, educational attainment, psychology, weather, number of interchanges and a whole host of other reasons. If BusConnects can improve speed and reliability to a large degree, an additional interchange won't act as a deterrent. When calculating mode choice and mode utility speed and reliability will get weighted at 10, interchange is often rated as a -2, or even -1.

They're weighted wherever the individual user feels they should be for them.

For me interchanging (and more importantly, location of it) would be weighted 10, this being convenience.

cgcsb

Patww79 wrote: »

They're weighted wherever the individual user feels they should be for them.

For me interchanging (and more importantly, location of it) would be weighted 10, this being convenience.

Transport planning is a scientific persuit for the most part, human behavior is modelled and behavior is predicted. You as an individual might rank those things differently (however irrational that might seem). But the general case remains the same. When it comes to innovations though, people rarely actually know what they want. You could decide now that prefer to drive because of some irrational fear of changing, but when you are stuck in traffic 3 hours a day and see buses whizzing past your left wingmirror you may well change your mind. Before the railways people wanted more canals and more donkeys and generally feared the technology and derided it as unreliable.

Isambard

cgcsb wrote: »

Through an extensive diversion no doubt. Maybe around the canals and in via Summerhill I'd imagine.

Presumably there will have to be access for commercial vehicles to deliver.

Stephen15

Patww79 wrote: »

The train leaves you (well me, for where I'd be going anyway) in such a place that you'd need to be finding further transport anyway.

Perhaps the assumption was that most people in Dunboyne use the train to get to town and would more frequent local services.

OldMrBrennan83

cgcsb wrote: »

Transport planning is a scientific persuit for the most part, human behavior is modelled and behavior is predicted. You as an individual might rank those things differently (however irrational that might seem). But the general case remains the same. When it comes to innovations though, people rarely actually know what they want. You could decide now that prefer to drive because of some irrational fear of changing, but when you are stuck in traffic 3 hours a day and see buses whizzing past your left wingmirror you may well change your mind. Before the railways people wanted more canals and more donkeys and generally feared the technology and derided it as unreliable.

People don't know what they want?Not a chance. It's more that the people doing the planning wouldn't know what it was like having to get a bus and are completely out of touch with what people actually want.



_

cgcsb

Isambard wrote: »

Presumably there will have to be access for commercial vehicles to deliver.

Usual arrangements for delivery hours I guess, except it'll be enforced by camera, software and hefty fines.

cgcsb

Patww79 wrote: »

People don't know what they want?Not a chance. It's more that the people doing the planning wouldn't know what it was like having to get a bus and are completely out of touch with what people actually want.



_

Why would you think those people are out of touch or don't use buses? The thing about planning is it aims to provide a societal need, not an individual want.

Jellybaby1

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

We regularly have to drive to Cathal Brugha St from Harold's Cross with large boxes of equipment in the car. There is no way we could take a bus. How would we be able to continue this journey if they prevent cars driving on the quays?

The same way that you should be doing it now, since you can't turn onto CB St. from O'Connell St anymore. i.e. via either
a) Merrion Sq. / Tara St / Gardiner St or
b) Clanbrassil St / Bolton St. / Mountjoy Sq.

What route do you currently take?

OldMrBrennan83

cgcsb wrote: »

Why would you think those people are out of touch or don't use buses? The thing about planning is it aims to provide a societal need, not an individual want.

Societal need? Next thing you'll be on about the environment (now that's one that's a -100 for me, or however low these weights go).

OscarMIlde

cgcsb wrote: »

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I doubt Bus Connects will even exist. At least nothing like the current balls up they have proposed.

And not for years.

It's a pretty solid plan. Only a handful of notable negative consequences. 92% of commuters will retain direct buses to the City Centre, and gain improved orbital access and everyone will benefit from improved frequency. The small issues e.g. Donebate and xpresso services can easily be corrected.

It's not a solid plan since it places far more emphasis on attracting fair weather bus users than improving commute times of ordinary working people, which is one of the biggest life stresses for many in the greater Dublin area.

cgcsb

OscarMIlde wrote: »

It's not a solid plan since it places far more emphasis on attracting fair weather bus users than improving commute times of ordinary working people, which is one of the biggest life stresses for many in the greater Dublin area.

Incorrect journey time improvement is at the centre of the plan. The detailed publication on the infrastructure will be published shortly.

ThunbergsAreGo

CatInABox wrote: »

I can also easily imagine that once BusConnects is bedded in, the price of parking, both on street and in multi stories will be increased. Not massively to start out with, but steadily increased over a number of years.

Why is this in any way linked to Bus connects?

ThunbergsAreGo

cgcsb wrote: »

Speed, cost, geographic convenience and reliability are the most important factors when considering modal choice. Other factors are changing, socio economic class, educational attainment, psychology, weather, number of interchanges and a whole host of other reasons. If BusConnects can improve speed and reliability to a large degree, an additional interchange won't act as a deterrent. When calculating mode choice and mode utility speed and reliability will get weighted at 10, interchange is often rated as a -2, or even -1.

It will on the way back though

It is all well and good going from a journey with 30 minutes frequency to one with a 5 minute frequency.

But on the way back any delay has the possibility of costing you 30 minutes or you need to build massive buffer into your commute

OscarMIlde

cgcsb wrote: »

Incorrect journey time improvement is at the centre of the plan. The detailed publication on the infrastructure will be published shortly.

Not true for Celbridge, Maynooth, or Leixlip. Reduced frequency at peak times, no more expresso routes and the so called express routes designed to replace them will be full to capacity at stop one and have an even longer route than they ordinarily do. The only minimal gain is bypassing Chapelizod for regular buses, which should have been done eons ago and still all buses go through the gridlock of Lucan village. Celbridge routes will likely get even longer as they now have to go through Leixlip also. I spend 4 hours a day commuting from Maynooth on Dublin bus and it will get longer under bus connects.

In short journey time is not at the centre of the plan, linking up areas is, if it was such asinine changes wouldn't have been made.

Stephen15

OscarMIlde wrote: »

Not true for Celbridge, Maynooth, or Leixlip. Reduced frequency at peak times, no more expresso routes and the so called express routes designed to replace them will be full to capacity at stop one and have an even longer route than they ordinarily do. The only minimal gain is bypassing Chapelizod for regular buses, which should have been done eons ago and still all buses go through the gridlock of Lucan village. Celbridge routes will likely get even longer as they now have to go through Leixlip also. I spend 4 hours a day commuting from Maynooth on Dublin bus and it will get longer under bus connects.

Why wouldn't you use the train from Maynooth?

OscarMIlde

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why wouldn't you use the train from Maynooth?

Because I commute to UCD and the train is too infrequent if I have to work late. It's also a fair walk from Sydney Parade when it's raining.

L1011

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why wouldn't you use the train from Maynooth?

The trains are full already

monument

To answer the original question:

jos_kel wrote: »

Hi,
I currently commute from Lucan to Sandyford on the M50 by car.
Until recently the company was in the city centre, so the bus commute was a lot less stressful.
Will bus connect connect place like lucan, tallaght and Dublin west to Sandyford and Dublin South.
TIA

In and around a growing city — especially with growing commuters towns which are dominated by car travel — traffic will fill to capacity.

So, even if you provide a Metro West solution that attracts some people out of cars, that space will fill up with other commuters.

If you want to reduce car use it’s demand management, and/or removal of car space and time that’s needed with a shift of priority and capacity to walking, cycling and public transport (ie Amsterdam, Utrecht, and what’s Dublin has been doing on a smaller level to now).

cgcsb

OscarMIlde wrote: »

Not true for Celbridge, Maynooth, or Leixlip. Reduced frequency at peak times, no more expresso routes and the so called express routes designed to replace them will be full to capacity at stop one and have an even longer route than they ordinarily do. The only minimal gain is bypassing Chapelizod for regular buses, which should have been done eons ago and still all buses go through the gridlock of Lucan village. Celbridge routes will likely get even longer as they now have to go through Leixlip also. I spend 4 hours a day commuting from Maynooth on Dublin bus and it will get longer under bus connects.

In short journey time is not at the centre of the plan, linking up areas is, if it was such asinine changes wouldn't have been made.

All those buses will be whizzing around the Chapelizod bypass instead of snailing through Chapelizod, you will see a reduction in Journey time as a result on normal buses. It is expected that a revised plan will include a beefed up express service. All buses through Leixlip and Maynooth will have an increase in frequency or remain the same. The C3(replacing 66) for example will go to every 10 minutes at peak times and bypass Chapelizod.vYou'll be saving 15 minutes or more at peak times.