Running Earth Wires?

hufpc8w3adnk65

cheif kaiser wrote: »

I have checked this out and from what I have read on multiple forums, there is absolutely no reason why one can't plaster directly on top of wires. Conduit would offer no protection against someone drilling into the wires, etc and is mainly there as a means to rewire easily. Modern plaster has no corrosive effect on wires either.

Is this an actual rule or just your opinion?

Plaster can erode the cable.. it’s not about drilling it

2011

cheif kaiser wrote: »

I have checked this out and from what I have read on multiple forums, there is absolutely no reason why one can't plaster directly on top of wires. Conduit would offer no protection against someone drilling into the wires, etc and is mainly there as a means to rewire easily. Modern plaster has no corrosive effect on wires either.

Is this an actual rule or just your opinion?

Apart from being considered unacceptable for a number of reasons here are a few examples from ET101:2008 making clear that this is not permitted:

522.5.4 Where harmful substances are present, wiring likely to be affected shall be suitably protected e.g. by an enclosure conduit or trunking such as expanded polystyrene thermal wall insulation, creosote and harmful substances in concrete or plaster.

In particular, measures shall be taken to protect wiring from corrosive substances such as polystyrene thermal wall insulation, creosote and harmful substances in concrete or plaster.

Extract from 522.6.4 as follows:

Note: Embedded wiring must also be protected against harmful substances present in plaster or concrete - see 522.5.3

Also see table 52A for under the title "permissible methods of installation" under the only section that deals with solid walls:

4. Embedded in solid walls as follows:

a) within 150 mm of room edges or in a horizontal or vertical run going directly to a point or accessory, and

b) protected by PVC conduit or by a suitable sheath against harmful substances in concrete or plaster, and

c) not less than 50 mm from the reverse side of the wall

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

Apart from being considered unacceptable for a number of reasons here are a few examples from ET101:2008 making clear that this is not permitted:

522.5.4 Where harmful substances are present, wiring likely to be affected shall be suitably protected e.g. by an enclosure conduit or trunking such as expanded polystyrene thermal wall insulation, creosote and harmful substances in concrete or plaster.

In particular, measures shall be taken to protect wiring from corrosive substances such as polystyrene thermal wall insulation, creosote and harmful substances in concrete or plaster.

Extract from 522.6.4 as follows:

Note: Embedded wiring must also be protected against harmful substances present in plaster or concrete - see 522.5.3

Also see table 52A for under the title "permissible methods of installation" under the only section that deals with solid walls:

4. Embedded in solid walls as follows:

a) within 150 mm of room edges or in a horizontal or vertical run going directly to a point or accessory, and

b) protected by PVC conduit or by a suitable sheath against harmful substances in concrete or plaster, and

c) not less than 50 mm from the reverse side of the wall

So the only that would apply is, 'Harmful substance in plaster'? However, I checked this out and modern day plaster does not have any harmful effects on PVC.

I am also not embedding it in solid walls so none of the above counts. I imagine they would count if I was embedding in concrete as concrete and especially old concrete, does have a corrosive effect overall.

I also find it amazing that all of these No No's and 'against regulations' are being thrown at me, yet, when I actually hire an electrician to do an electrical job, all of these rules go out the window. Odd That!

Risteard81

cheif kaiser wrote: »

MrMac84 wrote: »

Plastering directly on top of cables is a no no also

I have checked this out and from what I have read on multiple forums, there is absolutely no reason why one can't plaster directly on top of wires. Conduit would offer no protection against someone drilling into the wires, etc and is mainly there as a means to rewire easily. Modern plaster has no corrosive effect on wires either.

Is this an actual rule or just your opinion?

Whilst what you say is allowed by BS7671 (presumably these were UK fora?) ET101 does not permit this.

hufpc8w3adnk65

cheif kaiser wrote: »

So the only that would apply is, 'Harmful substance in plaster'? However, I checked this out and modern day plaster does not have any harmful effects on PVC.

I am also not embedding it in solid walls so none of the above counts. I imagine they would count if I was embedding in concrete as concrete and especially old concrete, does have a corrosive effect overall.

I also find it amazing that all of these No No's and 'against regulations' are being thrown at me, yet, when I actually hire an electrician to do an electrical job, all of these rules go out the window. Odd That!

If your “electrician” carry’s out work at the level you claim then you should be contacting safe electric as it’s well below the standard expected and required

hufpc8w3adnk65

cheif kaiser wrote: »

So the only that would apply is, 'Harmful substance in plaster'? However, I checked this out and modern day plaster does not have any harmful effects on PVC.

I am also not embedding it in solid walls so none of the above counts. I imagine they would count if I was embedding in concrete as concrete and especially old concrete, does have a corrosive effect overall.

I also find it amazing that all of these No No's and 'against regulations' are being thrown at me, yet, when I actually hire an electrician to do an electrical job, all of these rules go out the window. Odd That!

Also coming in here, seeking advice, then ridiculing the people giving you the advice is a strange way to show appreciation

cheif kaiser

MrMac84 wrote: »

If your “electrician” carry’s out work at the level you claim then you should be contacting safe electric as it’s well below the standard expected and required

Have you any idea how safe electric try to brush the problem onto RECI and RECI then try to shove the problem back to safe electric? It is an absolute debacle!

RECI insist that if it was a qualified electrician he would have had to supply the correct certification, except they don't and as I didn't actually employ them, the builder did, then I have no record of who they are?!?!

The last electrician I had in the house was called by the insulators who accidently drilled through the cooker wire. Now what I am I to do? Stand there grilling the man as to his qualifications, name address and RECI number, because that is exactly what RECI require you to supply when you try to make a complaint. - Incidentally, I asked his advice about the earthing and he told me to connect the switches to the earth in the nearest sockets but after checking this out, this is a No No as well!

Unfortunately, most home owners have no clue about electricals and leave the job down to the 'professional' trusting that he/she will do the job to regulations and have no clue that an un-earthed metal switch could potentially fry you!

I am simply trying to fix a bodge job in the easiest way I can, without wrecking a newly decorated house and all I am getting is No, No, No.

I can guarantee that if i was to employ an electrician, he/she would want to do a full rewire at €€€€€€, when in actual fact, all that is needed is 3 earth wires.

Effects

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Conduit would offer no protection against someone drilling into the wires, etc and is mainly there as a means to rewire easily. ?

Electricians are not in the habit of doing extra work just to make it easier for the next electrician in 20 years!

cheif kaiser

Risteard81 wrote: »

Whilst what you say is allowed by BS7671 (presumably these were UK fora?) ET101 does not permit this.

Please quote the section in ET101 that you are referring to, as I cannot find it? Thanks.

cheif kaiser

Effects wrote: »

Electricians are not in the habit of doing extra work just to make it easier for the next electrician in 20 years!

They are not in the habit of doing their own work right, full stop!

I can understand the need for conduit in a solid brick wall, as per the regulations quoted to me, but not in plaster, which is not mentioned in the regulations.

I don't actually recall the electrician working here using any conduit in the solid walls either but then the only way I could find that out would be to smash some holes in the wall so I guess i'll never know and I also guess that is what they counted on. A little like the builders not fire proofing because what you can't see, saves a few quid!

cheif kaiser

MrMac84 wrote: »

Also coming in here, seeking advice, then ridiculing the people giving you the advice is a strange way to show appreciation

It's not advice I'm getting, it is a bunch of regulations that don't actually apply.

I simply asked what size wire should I use?!?

I am the one being ridiculed for having the cheek to propose a simple solution to a dangerous problem. I simply want to run 3 earth wires across a ceiling. How dangerous could that actually be?

How dare I propose to do something that only a qualified electrician should rob me for doing and which I have already paid another electrician to do.

cheif kaiser

Thanks all for the advice, I'll leave it there thanks.

The one thing that I have learned over the past number of years, is that, I will never, ever, hire an Irish Builder, Electrician, Plumber, Landscaper, Painter, ever again and that is a really sad lesson to have learned.

hufpc8w3adnk65

Seen as you know it all I can’t for the life understand why you even came in here in the first place!!

2011

Mod note: I’m at work so I will deal with this later.
For now thread locked.

2011

Mod note:
Having read the various posts I am reopening the thread.

@cheif kaiser:
I understand your frustration, I too have suffered from substandard work from electricians in the home I purchased. I also accept that there is some merit in what you are saying regarding modern plaster not reacting with PVC, I will try to address this in later posts.

In the meantime it is important that we keep the debate civil. Some of your comments are quite insulting to other posters that are sharing the benefit of their experience and training.

2011

Ok cheif kaiser, as you have not agreed with my previous attempt (and you made some fair points) to show that ET101:2008 will not allow this let me try again.


"Equipment" os defined as "The necessary items for a particular purpose" according to the Oxford dictionary. If you accept that then you have to accept that cables are equipment.


134.1.5 Electrical equipment shall be installed in such a manner that the designed heat-dissipation conditions are not impaired.

If you plaster directly onto cabling it will not dissipate heat as effectively.

132.12 The electrical equipment shall be arranged so as to afford:
- sufficient space for the initial installation and later replacement of individual items of electrical equipment,
- accessibility for operation, testing, inspection, maintenance and repair.

So how would you replace the cables if they were not installed in conduit?

134.1.1 For the erection of an electrical installation, good worhanship by competent persons shall be ensured, and proper materials shall be used. Electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the equipment.

1) Plastering directly onto cables would not be considered "good workmanship". Now you can say that this is just my opinion, but I believe that any electrician worth his/ her salt will agree and I have been in the electrical game a long time.

2) Contact any manufacturer of PVC/PCV electrical cabling and you can be sure they will not advise plastering directly onto cabling. Apart from anything else thermal expansion and contraction would stress the cable as it would be so constricted.

I'm sure there are more, I will look again when I have a chance.

Risteard81

522.5.4
Also see Annex 52F - General Principles. This is a Normative Appendix which means that it forms part of the Rules.
It's hard to see how it can be argued that it is not expressly required by ET101. (I do agree that plaster is unlikely to be harmful to the cable, but ET101 essentially states that it is.)

Risteard81

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Have you any idea how safe electric try to brush the problem onto RECI and RECI  then try to shove the problem back to safe electric? It is an absolute debacle!

You are obviously unaware that RECI is the sole operator of the Safe Electric scheme, i.e. Safe Electric is RECI. What you are claiming is that RECI are brushing the problem onto RECI, and then RECI are shoving the problem back to RECI. What you have stated makes no sense.

Risteard81

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

Actually a protective conductor not mechanically protected must be a minimum of 4mm^2, or 2.5mm^2 if mechanically protected. A 1.5mm^2 single could not be used.

I have also looked this up and as far as I can see, 4mm^2 is only required when bonding, which as far as I am aware is slightly different to what I am intending on doing?

544.2.2 Supplementary bonding conductors shall consist of insulated
copper! conductors with a cross-sectional area in accordance
with 544.2.3 or 544.2.4, but not less than 2.5mm2 where
mechanical protection is provided, or 4mm2 where mechanical protection is not provided.

Apologies - 2.5mm^2 is permitted in lighting circuits when not mechanically protected, but 4mm^2 is required for all other types of circuits. (See Rule 543.1.3)

cheif kaiser

Risteard81 wrote: »

You are obviously unaware that RECI is the sole operator of the Safe Electric scheme, i.e. Safe Electric is RECI. What you are claiming is that RECI are brushing the problem onto RECI, and then RECI are shoving the problem back to RECI. What you have stated makes no sense.

I'll reword that... RECI shoved me onto CER/CRU who then shoved me back to RECI and back and forth I went.

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

Ok cheif kaiser, as you have not agreed with my previous attempt (and you made some fair points) to show that ET101:2008 will not allow this let me try again.


"Equipment" os defined as "The necessary items for a particular purpose" according to the Oxford dictionary. If you accept that then you have to accept that cables are equipment.


134.1.5 Electrical equipment shall be installed in such a manner that the designed heat-dissipation conditions are not impaired.

If you plaster directly onto cabling it will not dissipate heat as effectively.

132.12 The electrical equipment shall be arranged so as to afford:
- sufficient space for the initial installation and later replacement of individual items of electrical equipment,
- accessibility for operation, testing, inspection, maintenance and repair.

So how would you replace the cables if they were not installed in conduit?

134.1.1 For the erection of an electrical installation, good worhanship by competent persons shall be ensured, and proper materials shall be used. Electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the equipment.

1) Plastering directly onto cables would not be considered "good workmanship". Now you can say that this is just my opinion, but I believe that any electrician worth his/ her salt will agree and I have been in the electrical game a long time.

2) Contact any manufacturer of PVC/PCV electrical cabling and you can be sure they will not advise plastering directly onto cabling. Apart from anything else thermal expansion and contraction would stress the cable as it would be so constricted.

I'm sure there are more, I will look again when I have a chance.

I agree that plastering over the wire is not ideal, however, the only points that would be directly plastered onto, would be the points that cross each 2" joist. Anything else that is sunk into walls, I can easily run down some conduit.

This is by no means a permanent fix. It is a simple solution to avoid wrecking a house that I have just finished paying a fortune to have overhauled. To do the job properly would require pulling up new floors, new carpets, new kitchen tiles, newly plastered walls, etc, etc.

When the house is being decorated again, I will then arrange to have the job done properly.

In my opinion, the risk involved in plastering directly onto an earth wire is incompatible with the risk involved of leaving the switches unearthed.

I do apologise to anyone I have been rude to, it is simply frustration in having to fix this issue as well as a bodge Plumber job and most recently, the landscaper I employed to lay some new turf, basically raked all of the junk out of the soil and piled it into a big heap on one side of the garden and then covered it with turf!?!? I am broke, frustrated and worn out but I again apologise for taking my frustration out here.

2011

cheif kaiser wrote: »

I agree that plastering over the wire is not ideal, however, the only points that would be directly plastered onto, would be the points that cross each 2" joist. Anything else that is sunk into walls, I can easily run down some conduit.

I am wondering if we are talking about the same thing? From your description above it sounds like you are describing a partition wall or a solid wall that has been dry lined. Conduit is not a requirement in these cases. Is there a void or hollow space where you plan to run the cables?

Also, why can't you drill the joists?

This is by no means a permanent fix.

Why would anyone do this job twice?

It is a simple solution to avoid wrecking a house that I have just finished paying a fortune to have overhauled.

Why not simply replace the accessories in question with plastic? No mess, no fun, cost effective, no electrician required, 100% safe and unlike what you are planning you won't invalidate the certification of the installation. Something like MK Logic plus looks very smart. Then install the earths when the house is being decorated again (which you plan to do anyway).

In my opinion, the risk involved in plastering directly onto an earth wire is incompatible with the risk involved of leaving the switches unearthed.

During this work you may find that there are cables in exactly the location that you are installing the new cables, what about the risk of damaging these?

You may be able to find a Class 2 (double insulated) light fitting that has a metal finish.

I do apologise to anyone I have been rude to, it is simply frustration in having to fix this issue as well as a bodge Plumber job and most recently, the landscaper I employed to lay some new turf, basically raked all of the junk out of the soil and piled it into a big heap on one side of the garden and then covered it with turf!?!? I am broke, frustrated and worn out but I again apologise for taking my frustration out here.

Thank you for apologising. I think we have all been there.

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

I am wondering if we are talking about the same thing? From your description above it sounds like you are describing a partition wall or a solid wall that has been dry lined. Conduit is not a requirement in these cases. Is there a void or hollow space where you plan to run the cables?

I plan on running the cable across the sitting room ceiling into the kitchen by drilling a hole either side of each joist and threading the cable in and around each joist.

FishingWireToFirstFloorCeilingNotchingJoists.gif

Like this except without the notching as would be unsafe and not needed for a narrow wire. You then just plaster back over the wire. A commercial electrican showed me how to do this.


Also, why can't you drill the joists?

It is my understanding that this is not recommended? Also, I would have to basically pull half the ceiling apart to achieve this and I want to cause as little damage as possible.



Why would anyone do this job twice?

This is a quick fix easy method and wouldn't be the correct way or route, to run full cables


Why not simply replace the accessories in question with plastic? No mess, no fun, cost effective, no electrician required, 100% safe and unlike what you are planning you won't invalidate the certification of the installation. Something like MK Logic plus looks very smart. Then install the earths when the house is being decorated again (which you plan to do anyway).

The only switches I can find that do not require earthing are big old fashioned white fittings. I don't like them and would rather run an earth, than destroy the look of the kitchen. According to the info on MK Logic, even they require earthing.

During this work you may find that there are cables in exactly the location that you are installing the new cables, what about the risk of damaging these?

I would check what way the cables run into the switches and completely avoid this route. I don't think it matters which route the earth takes to get to the switches as long as it gets there.

You may be able to find a Class 2 (double insulated) light fitting that has a metal finish.

Tried it and actually bought what I thought was class 2 but they still require earthing. I don't think they manufacture class 2 switches except the white ones.



Thank you for apologising. I think we have all been there.

I have more T - Shirts than anyone at this stage

2011

cheif kaiser wrote: »

The only switches I can find that do not require earthing are big old fashioned white fittings. I don't like them and would rather run an earth, than destroy the look of the kitchen. According to the info on MK Logic, even they require earthing.

Not if plastic. See page 12

I have to do some work now.