Running Earth Wires?

cheif kaiser

I need to earth 3 Light Switches and 1 Ceiling light which were not earthed by a dodgy Electrician.

I know how to chase wires and would like to do this part myself as know Electricians hate it

What I don't know is the easiest way and correct way to do this i.e. Do I need to run 1 earth wire to each item and the other end of each back to the fuse box?

Also, Will an electrician come in and connect these up, once I have the messy part done?

Thanks.

willbur

cheif kaiser wrote: »

I need to earth 3 Light Switches and 1 Ceiling light which were not earthed by a dodgy Electrician.

I know how to chase wires and would like to do this part myself as know Electricians hate it

What I don't know is the easiest way and correct way to do this i.e. Do I need to run 1 earth wire to each item and the other end of each back to the fuse box?

Also, Will an electrician come in and connect these up, once I have the messy part done?

Thanks.

I would double check to see if there is not an earth wire check the single brown cable it might have an earth beside it but coveredup by the grey pvc cover and sniped off , if not then option 1 take floor boards up directly above the light switches replace the brown switch wire from the switch to the light by attaching brown with the earth wire built in to the existing brown switch using this as the pull wire up to the light in the ceiling,if you can't take floor boards up because they are new or it's a finished floor , then make a 6 inch square hole in the ceiling plaster board cut neatly , to get access to the tube that comes down to the switch , all so if there is a light fitting that has an earth you. Can link to that instead of going to the main switch board assuming it is earthed at the board
,If possible take photo of inside the switch but turn off the lighting circuit at the board first , and take a photo of the light fitting showing the cables attached , we might see something to help you out

cheif kaiser

willbur wrote: »

I would double check to see if there is not an earth wire check the single brown cable it might have an earth beside it but coveredup by the grey pvc cover and sniped off , if not then option 1 take floor boards up directly above the light switches replace the brown switch wire from the switch to the light by attaching brown with the earth wire built in to the existing brown switch using this as the pull wire up to the light in the ceiling,if you can't take floor boards up because they are new or it's a finished floor , then make a 6 inch square hole in the ceiling plaster board cut neatly , to get access to the tube that comes down to the switch , all so if there is a light fitting that has an earth you. Can link to that instead of going to the main switch board assuming it is earthed at the board
,If possible take photo of inside the switch but turn off the lighting circuit at the board first , and take a photo of the light fitting showing the cables attached , we might see something to help you out

Old house, old wires inside light switches consisting of only live and neutral. Plastic fitting were then replaced with Metal, so they deffinitly need to be eathed.

Not an option to pull up floor boards. I will have to run along the sitting room ceiling but that's not an issue as I know how to do this the least damaging way.

What I really need to know is the size of earth I should use and if each fitting needs 1 dedicted wire run from the fuse board to the fitting?

2011

It would be best to get the entire installation checked over by an experienced electrician, from your description it may well need a rewire. If a rewire is unaffordable you could get the light switches and lights changed for plastic ones.

It is probable that there are far more serious wiring issues within the installation.

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

It would be best to get the entire installation checked over by an experienced electrician, from your description it may well need a rewire. If a rewire is unaffordable you could get the light switches and lights changed for plastic ones.

It is probable that there are far more serious wiring issues within the installation.

Wiring has been checked, there is no issue with the wiring other than these 3 fittings not having any earths.

I don't want to change to plastic fittings as they would be in a brand new kitchen which has all metal fitting and 2 plastic light switches would looks awful. I simply want to earth the fittings to make them safe.

A qualified Electrician will not run the earths the way I want to run them and will either A) not take on the job at all or insist on a 3 core wire been run to all 3 fittings. This will result in him wanting to pull up new hardwood flloors upstairs which is not happening or smashing through the walls and ceilings, drilling holes through rafters and making a massive mess which is not happening either.

It was also a qualified electrician that created this mess in the first place and at this stage I am sick to the back teeth of Cowboys. I can't get anything done without it being bollocked up.

I want to run the wires myself for this very reason.

2011

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Wiring has been checked, there is no issue with the wiring other than these 3 fittings not having any earths.

If correct, that is good.
However it is highly unlikely that this is the only issue was wiring this correctly would have taken minimal extra effort. I think you need to get a second opinion on this.

I don't want to change to plastic fittings as they would be in a brand new kitchen which has all metal fitting and 2 plastic light switches would looks awful. I simply want to earth the fittings to make them safe.

Ok.

A qualified Electrician will not run the earths the way I want to run them and will either A) not take on the job at all

A common complaint, they are all busy.
Also many want them to work for minimum wage which they are not prepared to do.
Where are you based? Someone here may be interested (not me, I don't do this work).

insist on a 3 core wire been run to all 3 fittings. This will result in him wanting to pull up new hardwood flloors upstairs which is not happening or smashing through the walls and ceilings, drilling holes through rafters and making a massive mess which is not happening either.

Well either:
A) They are indeed cowboys
They have a valid reason for doing this that as someone that is not an electrician can not appreciate (no offense intended).

It was also a qualified electrician that created this mess in the first place and at this stage I am sick to the back teeth of Cowboys.

I appreciate that you may have employed a cowboy, but not every single electrician is a cowboy.

You just need to find a good electrician and be prepared to pay the cost of employing a professional. Please consider mains voltage is potentially lethal voltage. "DIY experts" trying to save a few bob are responsible for taking risks that without even realising it. Apart from the risk of a fatality or serious injury there is also the financial cost of loosing a home, the largest asset for many of us. Don't falll into the trap of being penny wise and pound stupid!

What I really need to know is the size of earth I should use

Generally a 1.5 mm sq.

and if each fitting needs 1 dedicted wire run from the fuse board to the fitting?

That would do it, just don't open the distribution board (fuse board). Having to ask question like that makes it clear that working in the board is beyond your ability, apart from legalities and safety aspects of doing this.

listermint

From what im reading though you want to run earth through conduit up around door frames and walls.

No offense but switching from metal to plastic would be far less crap looking that running contuit.

Conduit looks like amateur hour

2011

:D:D:)

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

If correct, that is good.
However it is highly unlikely that this is the only issue was wiring this correctly would have taken minimal extra effort. I think you need to get a second opinion on this.

Was actually inspected by an inspector from CRU as a result of Cowboy electrician installing metal fittings without earth wires, which is highly illegal.

I have no intention of connecting up anything mself, just want to do the messy part myself so I can have full control of how it is done and where I can affort to take my time.

2011

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Was actually inspected by an inspector from CRU as a result of Cowboy electrician installing metal fittings without earth wires, which is highly illegal.

I have no intention of connecting up anything mself, just want to do the messy part myself so I can have full control of how it is done and where I can affort to take my time.

Fair enough.

Who are CRU?
Do you mean CER?

cheif kaiser

listermint wrote: »

From what im reading though you want to run earth through conduit up around door frames and walls.

No offense but switching from metal to plastic would be far less crap looking that running contuit.

Conduit looks like amateur hour

Not at all! I am a prefectionist, you wont even know I was there!

An electrician friend of mine showed me years ago how to chase wires by drilling a hole either side of the rafters and removing the plaster from between these 2 holes. You then chase the wires in and around the rafters and then plaster over it.

Any chasing down walls is an easy removal of a slice of plasterboard, insert wire and plaster over.

Risteard81

2011 wrote:

Generally a 1.5 mm sq.

Actually a protective conductor not mechanically protected must be a minimum of 4mm^2, or 2.5mm^2 if mechanically protected. A 1.5mm^2 single could not be used.

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

Fair enough.

Who are CRU?
Do you mean CER?

Yes, they changed their name and insisted I only refer to them as CRU :rolleyes:

Risteard81

2011 wrote: »

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Was actually inspected by an inspector from CRU as a result of Cowboy electrician installing metal fittings without earth wires, which is highly illegal.

I have no intention of connecting up anything mself, just want to do the messy part myself so I can have full control of how it is done and where I can affort to take my time.

Fair enough.

Who are CRU?
Do you mean CER?

The CER were renamed the CRU in the past year.

2011

Risteard81 wrote: »

The CER were renamed the CRU in the past year.

Everyday is a school day

Risteard81

2011 wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

The CER were renamed the CRU in the past year.

Everyday is a school day

Indeed! They are now called the Commission for the Regulation of Utilities (CRU).

keithdub

Go to your local electrical hole salers and have a look at the range they have plastic fittings aren't just white anymore

Risteard81

keithdub wrote: »

Go to your local electrical hole salers and have a look at the range they have plastic fittings aren't just white anymore

How big are the holes that they sell? ;-)

cheif kaiser

keithdub wrote: »

Go to your local electrical hole salers and have a look at the range they have plastic fittings aren't just white anymore

I have looked at loads of fittings and most are metal sprayed a colour. It is very hard to purchase completely plastic fittings. I found some on the internet and would you believe, they need to be earthed because the screws are metal and the earth connection is metal!

Effects

Risteard81 wrote: »

Actually a protective conductor not mechanically protected must be a minimum of 4mm^2, or 2.5mm^2 if mechanically protected. A 1.5mm^2 single could not be used.

So if it's on a lighting circuit, with mechanical protection such as a conduit, it has to be 2.5?

2011

Effects wrote: »

So if it's on a lighting circuit, with mechanical protection such as a conduit, it has to be 2.5?

No, he means without.

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

No, he means without.

So do I need a 1.5 or a 2.5!?!?

Effects

2011 wrote: »

No, he means without.

Ok, so it's fine to run a single 1.5 earth, as long as it's in mech protection.
I've been out of the game a while so not as up to speed with regs as I used to be.

2011

cheif kaiser wrote: »

So do I need a 1.5 or a 2.5!?!?

If it has mechanical protection it a 1.5 is fine.

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

If it has mechanical protection it a 1.5 is fine.

Won't have mechanical protection. I planned to just run the wire straight through with no conduit. If it was a live wire I would make sure it was protected but don't see it necessarily for an earth?

Risteard81

Effects wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

Actually a protective conductor not mechanically protected must be a minimum of 4mm^2, or 2.5mm^2 if mechanically protected. A 1.5mm^2 single could not be used.

So if it's on a lighting circuit, with mechanical protection such as a conduit, it has to be 2.5?

No, not within containment e.g. singles. If it's a single green/yellow protective conductor run separately though it needs to be a minimum of 4mm^2 when not mechanically protected. Apologies if my post was confusing. (I admit it was badly written.)

cheif kaiser

Risteard81 wrote: »

it needs to be a minimum of 4mm^2

:eek: that's huge! What size is a 3 core cable?

hufpc8w3adnk65

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Not at all! I am a prefectionist, you wont even know I was there!

An electrician friend of mine showed me years ago how to chase wires by drilling a hole either side of the rafters and removing the plaster from between these 2 holes. You then chase the wires in and around the rafters and then plaster over it.

Any chasing down walls is an easy removal of a slice of plasterboard, insert wire and plaster over.

Plastering directly on top of cables is a no no also

Risteard81

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

it needs to be a minimum of 4mm^2

:eek: that's huge! What size is a 3 core cable?

A multicore cable is mechanically protected by virtue of the fact that it has a sheath - it is an insulated and sheathed cable.

cheif kaiser

MrMac84 wrote: »

Plastering directly on top of cables is a no no also

I have checked this out and from what I have read on multiple forums, there is absolutely no reason why one can't plaster directly on top of wires. Conduit would offer no protection against someone drilling into the wires, etc and is mainly there as a means to rewire easily. Modern plaster has no corrosive effect on wires either.

Is this an actual rule or just your opinion?

cheif kaiser

Risteard81 wrote: »

Actually a protective conductor not mechanically protected must be a minimum of 4mm^2, or 2.5mm^2 if mechanically protected. A 1.5mm^2 single could not be used.

I have also looked this up and as far as I can see, 4mm^2 is only required when bonding, which as far as I am aware is slightly different to what I am intending on doing?

544.2.2 Supplementary bonding conductors shall consist of insulated
copper! conductors with a cross-sectional area in accordance
with 544.2.3 or 544.2.4, but not less than 2.5mm2 where
mechanical protection is provided, or 4mm2 where mechanical protection is not provided.

hufpc8w3adnk65

cheif kaiser wrote: »

I have checked this out and from what I have read on multiple forums, there is absolutely no reason why one can't plaster directly on top of wires. Conduit would offer no protection against someone drilling into the wires, etc and is mainly there as a means to rewire easily. Modern plaster has no corrosive effect on wires either.

Is this an actual rule or just your opinion?

Plaster can erode the cable.. it’s not about drilling it

2011

cheif kaiser wrote: »

I have checked this out and from what I have read on multiple forums, there is absolutely no reason why one can't plaster directly on top of wires. Conduit would offer no protection against someone drilling into the wires, etc and is mainly there as a means to rewire easily. Modern plaster has no corrosive effect on wires either.

Is this an actual rule or just your opinion?

Apart from being considered unacceptable for a number of reasons here are a few examples from ET101:2008 making clear that this is not permitted:

522.5.4 Where harmful substances are present, wiring likely to be affected shall be suitably protected e.g. by an enclosure conduit or trunking such as expanded polystyrene thermal wall insulation, creosote and harmful substances in concrete or plaster.

In particular, measures shall be taken to protect wiring from corrosive substances such as polystyrene thermal wall insulation, creosote and harmful substances in concrete or plaster.

Extract from 522.6.4 as follows:

Note: Embedded wiring must also be protected against harmful substances present in plaster or concrete - see 522.5.3

Also see table 52A for under the title "permissible methods of installation" under the only section that deals with solid walls:

4. Embedded in solid walls as follows:

a) within 150 mm of room edges or in a horizontal or vertical run going directly to a point or accessory, and

b) protected by PVC conduit or by a suitable sheath against harmful substances in concrete or plaster, and

c) not less than 50 mm from the reverse side of the wall

cheif kaiser

2011 wrote: »

Apart from being considered unacceptable for a number of reasons here are a few examples from ET101:2008 making clear that this is not permitted:

522.5.4 Where harmful substances are present, wiring likely to be affected shall be suitably protected e.g. by an enclosure conduit or trunking such as expanded polystyrene thermal wall insulation, creosote and harmful substances in concrete or plaster.

In particular, measures shall be taken to protect wiring from corrosive substances such as polystyrene thermal wall insulation, creosote and harmful substances in concrete or plaster.

Extract from 522.6.4 as follows:

Note: Embedded wiring must also be protected against harmful substances present in plaster or concrete - see 522.5.3

Also see table 52A for under the title "permissible methods of installation" under the only section that deals with solid walls:

4. Embedded in solid walls as follows:

a) within 150 mm of room edges or in a horizontal or vertical run going directly to a point or accessory, and

b) protected by PVC conduit or by a suitable sheath against harmful substances in concrete or plaster, and

c) not less than 50 mm from the reverse side of the wall

So the only that would apply is, 'Harmful substance in plaster'? However, I checked this out and modern day plaster does not have any harmful effects on PVC.

I am also not embedding it in solid walls so none of the above counts. I imagine they would count if I was embedding in concrete as concrete and especially old concrete, does have a corrosive effect overall.

I also find it amazing that all of these No No's and 'against regulations' are being thrown at me, yet, when I actually hire an electrician to do an electrical job, all of these rules go out the window. Odd That!

Risteard81

cheif kaiser wrote: »

MrMac84 wrote: »

Plastering directly on top of cables is a no no also

I have checked this out and from what I have read on multiple forums, there is absolutely no reason why one can't plaster directly on top of wires. Conduit would offer no protection against someone drilling into the wires, etc and is mainly there as a means to rewire easily. Modern plaster has no corrosive effect on wires either.

Is this an actual rule or just your opinion?

Whilst what you say is allowed by BS7671 (presumably these were UK fora?) ET101 does not permit this.

hufpc8w3adnk65

cheif kaiser wrote: »

So the only that would apply is, 'Harmful substance in plaster'? However, I checked this out and modern day plaster does not have any harmful effects on PVC.

I am also not embedding it in solid walls so none of the above counts. I imagine they would count if I was embedding in concrete as concrete and especially old concrete, does have a corrosive effect overall.

I also find it amazing that all of these No No's and 'against regulations' are being thrown at me, yet, when I actually hire an electrician to do an electrical job, all of these rules go out the window. Odd That!

If your “electrician” carry’s out work at the level you claim then you should be contacting safe electric as it’s well below the standard expected and required

hufpc8w3adnk65

cheif kaiser wrote: »

So the only that would apply is, 'Harmful substance in plaster'? However, I checked this out and modern day plaster does not have any harmful effects on PVC.

I am also not embedding it in solid walls so none of the above counts. I imagine they would count if I was embedding in concrete as concrete and especially old concrete, does have a corrosive effect overall.

I also find it amazing that all of these No No's and 'against regulations' are being thrown at me, yet, when I actually hire an electrician to do an electrical job, all of these rules go out the window. Odd That!

Also coming in here, seeking advice, then ridiculing the people giving you the advice is a strange way to show appreciation

cheif kaiser

MrMac84 wrote: »

If your “electrician” carry’s out work at the level you claim then you should be contacting safe electric as it’s well below the standard expected and required

Have you any idea how safe electric try to brush the problem onto RECI and RECI then try to shove the problem back to safe electric? It is an absolute debacle!

RECI insist that if it was a qualified electrician he would have had to supply the correct certification, except they don't and as I didn't actually employ them, the builder did, then I have no record of who they are?!?!

The last electrician I had in the house was called by the insulators who accidently drilled through the cooker wire. Now what I am I to do? Stand there grilling the man as to his qualifications, name address and RECI number, because that is exactly what RECI require you to supply when you try to make a complaint. - Incidentally, I asked his advice about the earthing and he told me to connect the switches to the earth in the nearest sockets but after checking this out, this is a No No as well!

Unfortunately, most home owners have no clue about electricals and leave the job down to the 'professional' trusting that he/she will do the job to regulations and have no clue that an un-earthed metal switch could potentially fry you!

I am simply trying to fix a bodge job in the easiest way I can, without wrecking a newly decorated house and all I am getting is No, No, No.

I can guarantee that if i was to employ an electrician, he/she would want to do a full rewire at €€€€€€, when in actual fact, all that is needed is 3 earth wires.

Effects

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Conduit would offer no protection against someone drilling into the wires, etc and is mainly there as a means to rewire easily. ?

Electricians are not in the habit of doing extra work just to make it easier for the next electrician in 20 years!

cheif kaiser

Risteard81 wrote: »

Whilst what you say is allowed by BS7671 (presumably these were UK fora?) ET101 does not permit this.

Please quote the section in ET101 that you are referring to, as I cannot find it? Thanks.

cheif kaiser

Effects wrote: »

Electricians are not in the habit of doing extra work just to make it easier for the next electrician in 20 years!

They are not in the habit of doing their own work right, full stop!

I can understand the need for conduit in a solid brick wall, as per the regulations quoted to me, but not in plaster, which is not mentioned in the regulations.

I don't actually recall the electrician working here using any conduit in the solid walls either but then the only way I could find that out would be to smash some holes in the wall so I guess i'll never know and I also guess that is what they counted on. A little like the builders not fire proofing because what you can't see, saves a few quid!

cheif kaiser

MrMac84 wrote: »

Also coming in here, seeking advice, then ridiculing the people giving you the advice is a strange way to show appreciation

It's not advice I'm getting, it is a bunch of regulations that don't actually apply.

I simply asked what size wire should I use?!?

I am the one being ridiculed for having the cheek to propose a simple solution to a dangerous problem. I simply want to run 3 earth wires across a ceiling. How dangerous could that actually be?

How dare I propose to do something that only a qualified electrician should rob me for doing and which I have already paid another electrician to do.

cheif kaiser

Thanks all for the advice, I'll leave it there thanks.

The one thing that I have learned over the past number of years, is that, I will never, ever, hire an Irish Builder, Electrician, Plumber, Landscaper, Painter, ever again and that is a really sad lesson to have learned.

hufpc8w3adnk65

Seen as you know it all I can’t for the life understand why you even came in here in the first place!!

2011

Mod note: I’m at work so I will deal with this later.
For now thread locked.

2011

Mod note:
Having read the various posts I am reopening the thread.

@cheif kaiser:
I understand your frustration, I too have suffered from substandard work from electricians in the home I purchased. I also accept that there is some merit in what you are saying regarding modern plaster not reacting with PVC, I will try to address this in later posts.

In the meantime it is important that we keep the debate civil. Some of your comments are quite insulting to other posters that are sharing the benefit of their experience and training.

2011

Ok cheif kaiser, as you have not agreed with my previous attempt (and you made some fair points) to show that ET101:2008 will not allow this let me try again.


"Equipment" os defined as "The necessary items for a particular purpose" according to the Oxford dictionary. If you accept that then you have to accept that cables are equipment.


134.1.5 Electrical equipment shall be installed in such a manner that the designed heat-dissipation conditions are not impaired.

If you plaster directly onto cabling it will not dissipate heat as effectively.

132.12 The electrical equipment shall be arranged so as to afford:
- sufficient space for the initial installation and later replacement of individual items of electrical equipment,
- accessibility for operation, testing, inspection, maintenance and repair.

So how would you replace the cables if they were not installed in conduit?

134.1.1 For the erection of an electrical installation, good worhanship by competent persons shall be ensured, and proper materials shall be used. Electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the equipment.

1) Plastering directly onto cables would not be considered "good workmanship". Now you can say that this is just my opinion, but I believe that any electrician worth his/ her salt will agree and I have been in the electrical game a long time.

2) Contact any manufacturer of PVC/PCV electrical cabling and you can be sure they will not advise plastering directly onto cabling. Apart from anything else thermal expansion and contraction would stress the cable as it would be so constricted.

I'm sure there are more, I will look again when I have a chance.

Risteard81

522.5.4
Also see Annex 52F - General Principles. This is a Normative Appendix which means that it forms part of the Rules.
It's hard to see how it can be argued that it is not expressly required by ET101. (I do agree that plaster is unlikely to be harmful to the cable, but ET101 essentially states that it is.)

Risteard81

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Have you any idea how safe electric try to brush the problem onto RECI and RECI  then try to shove the problem back to safe electric? It is an absolute debacle!

You are obviously unaware that RECI is the sole operator of the Safe Electric scheme, i.e. Safe Electric is RECI. What you are claiming is that RECI are brushing the problem onto RECI, and then RECI are shoving the problem back to RECI. What you have stated makes no sense.

Risteard81

cheif kaiser wrote: »

Risteard81 wrote: »

Actually a protective conductor not mechanically protected must be a minimum of 4mm^2, or 2.5mm^2 if mechanically protected. A 1.5mm^2 single could not be used.

I have also looked this up and as far as I can see, 4mm^2 is only required when bonding, which as far as I am aware is slightly different to what I am intending on doing?

544.2.2 Supplementary bonding conductors shall consist of insulated
copper! conductors with a cross-sectional area in accordance
with 544.2.3 or 544.2.4, but not less than 2.5mm2 where
mechanical protection is provided, or 4mm2 where mechanical protection is not provided.

Apologies - 2.5mm^2 is permitted in lighting circuits when not mechanically protected, but 4mm^2 is required for all other types of circuits. (See Rule 543.1.3)

cheif kaiser

Risteard81 wrote: »

You are obviously unaware that RECI is the sole operator of the Safe Electric scheme, i.e. Safe Electric is RECI. What you are claiming is that RECI are brushing the problem onto RECI, and then RECI are shoving the problem back to RECI. What you have stated makes no sense.

I'll reword that... RECI shoved me onto CER/CRU who then shoved me back to RECI and back and forth I went.