Shocker: Primary teachers overwhelmingly Irish Catholics

benjamin d

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/primary-teachers-disproportionately-white-irish-and-catholic-1.3642624?mode=amp

So after years of de facto banning anyone who isn't an Irish speaking Catholic from being a primary teacher, a study has noticed Irish teachers aren't very diverse. Well done them.

I know a few people who would've liked to have been teachers but didn't feel comfortable having to toe the catholic church's line to do it.

Maybe the relentless pursuit of "diversity" will finally do what thousands of people have been calling for for years and rid us of the church in schools? Here's hoping...

Assetbacked

“Disproportionately”; spoof.

Franz Von Peppercorn

According to the Central Statistics Office, 11.6 per cent of the population identify as non-Irish, while 82.2 per cent of the population identify as white Irish.

The non Irish are not here to teach though. Most are temporary migrants as far as I can see. My office is 50% non Irish - most will return home some day.

Also why should every industry match exactly the demographics of this or any country?

lawred2

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

According to the Central Statistics Office, 11.6 per cent of the population identify as non-Irish, while 82.2 per cent of the population identify as white Irish.

The non Irish are not here to teach though. Most are temporary migrants as far as I can see. My office is 50% non Irish - most will return home some day.

Also why should every industry match exactly the demographics of this or any country?

Whatever about demographics, having a crack off honoring the Constitution would be a decent start

benjamin d

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Also why should every industry match exactly the demographics of this or any country?

I wouldn't have any issue whatsoever with every primary teacher being Irish, but primary school teachers to an almost hilarious degree are stereotypically Irish, nearly all rural, Catholic, GAA-loving, pride-of-the-parish types in my experience.
The problem is the rules around becoming a teacher and the routes to do it copperfasten that stereotypical demographic as the only type allowed. Must speak Irish, must do a catholic-led course, must (96%) teach to a catholic ethos. It's completely unfair to a lot of people.

CatFromHue

What??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEvUt2kUg0c

KathleenGrant

benjamin d wrote: »

I wouldn't have any issue whatsoever with every primary teacher being Irish, but primary school teachers to an almost hilarious degree are stereotypically Irish, nearly all rural, Catholic, GAA-loving, pride-of-the-parish types in my experience.
The problem is the rules around becoming a teacher and the routes to do it copperfasten that stereotypical demographic as the only type allowed. Must speak Irish, must do a catholic-led course, must (96%) teach to a catholic ethos. Its completely unfair to a lot of people.

Snort!!

Atoms for Peace

I'd be more shocked if the majority were satanic vegans to be honest.

TCM

benjamin d wrote:

I wouldn't have any issue whatsoever with every primary teacher being Irish, but primary school teachers to an almost hilarious degree are stereotypically Irish, nearly all rural, Catholic, GAA-loving, pride-of-the-parish types in my experience. The problem is the rules around becoming a teacher and the routes to do it copperfasten that stereotypical demographic as the only type allowed. Must speak Irish, must do a catholic-led course, must (96%) teach to a catholic ethos. Its completely unfair to a lot of people.

Don't forget - must have a high level of education. This by the way eliminates many people.

DEFTLEFTHAND

But sure the country as a whole is overwhelmingly Irish Catholic.

kneemos

Almost exclusively female also.

Sunny Disposition

National school teachers are of a type, everyone knows it. It is a bit unhealthy for sure, a profession where diversity barely exists.

Primary school teaching could do with more men, if only to help the women get rights. And before anybody goes pc nuts, you could acknowledge that it's no coincidence that the very strongly female-dominated professions of teaching and nursing are walked over, and cowered into submission by consistently disastrous soup-taking "leadership". 30 plus students per class, many of whom do not speak the language and have a wide variety of special needs. Fúck that for quality of working life. The "holidays" my eye. In that stress, you'll be taking a permanent holiday from your teaching career before you're 50.

I wish mná na hÉireann had more Constance Markieviczs and fewer shítehawks waffling on about theory and "constitutional positions" - how it suits the conservative patriachy in The Irish Times to facilitate that distraction from fighting for real rights in the workplace that would cost the same conservatives.

And this state would collapse if the hugely female-dominated carers of Ireland, many in effect serving a modern form of indentured servitude to needy relatives, decided to point out the billions they save the Irish taxpayer each year.

malinheader

What do you want a percentage of people who don't want to integrate or embrace our culture and think we should change to accomodate them to be brought into the primary schools.just to be seen to be politically correct. There's enough of that going on at the minute. Nothing wrong with the way it is.

Edgware

TCM wrote: »

Don't forget - must have a high level of education. This by the way eliminates many people.

So to be more "inclusive" let's employ thickos as teachers

Renegade Mechanic

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

According to the Central Statistics Office, 11.6 per cent of the population identify as non-Irish, while 82.2 per cent of the population identify as white Irish.

The non Irish are not here to teach though. Most are temporary migrants as far as I can see. My office is 50% non Irish - most will return home some day.

Also why should every industry match exactly the demographics of this or any country?

Match? Hah, if 11.6% of teachers were "Non-Irish" you'd still have people crying foul.

And I love how people gloss over why they have to be Catholic. In Catholic schools :rolleyes:
The church dirtied it's bib, big time. In particular the Christian brothers. Elements within that organisation have permanently ruined it's name and they will never wield the influence they had over Ireland. That's not a bad thing, either. They've had their day. Now, they're a useful buffer imo, little more.

But without the Church, the Nuns or Christian brothers at the time Ireland would probably be less literate today than Somalia. The Irish Government were completely incapable of educating the country and depended wholly on the the church to fund and run Ireland's mainstream education.

engiweirdo

Id seriously doubt just how "catholic" they really are. Overheard a conversation by some teeaching students on a bus and the general bent was that while none was particularly religious, all were taking religious modules as "I don't want to, like, have no job"*sic*. A disgraceful state of affairs in an apparently modern state to be fair.

VinLieger

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

But sure the country as a whole is overwhelmingly Irish Catholic.

Because 90% of our primary schools are catholic and require baptism for entry, you arent seeing the circular logic here?

Hector Savage

Yeah we should import lots of radical Islamic teachers to teach kids to hate the west and jews.
For diversity like ... IT and the MSM would love that ****.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Hector Savage wrote: »

Yeah we should import lots of radical Islamic teachers to teach kids to hate the west and jews.
For diversity like ... IT and the MSM would love that ****.

Of, right, so those are the only options then? Trad Irish god-fearing Catholic and radical west-hating Islam?

There's absolutely nothing in between? You're sure about this?

The problem in a nutshell is that people want a traditional conservative education. Or at least they're told they do. And an Irish, catholic, preferably female teaching demographic is the best way of bringing this about.

Now, while there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, it IS limiting. You're going to get the same thing year in year out, and it's not going bring about a vibrant, modernised, expressive forward-moving generation when the country probably needs it the most.

nice_guy80

A load of black lads with foreign accents teaching in rural Leitrim should address some of the issues

Hector Savage

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Of, right, so those are the only options then? Trad Irish god-fearing Catholic and radical west-hating Islam?

There's absolutely nothing in between? You're sure about this?

The problem in a nutshell is that people want a traditional conservative education. Or at least they're told they do. And an Irish, catholic, preferably female teaching demographic is the best way of bringing this about.

Now, while there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, it IS limiting. You're going to get the same thing year in year out, and it's not going bring about a vibrant, modernised, expressive forward-moving generation when the country probably needs it the most.

Course I'm not seriously suggesting thats a possibility.
I just don't know what the IT is complaining about - the stat shows a pretty fair reflection of the demographic of the country itself, so no big deal.

Also they might be "catholic" just like I am officially "catholic" , but doubt they are practicing.
My sister in law is training right now to be a primary school teacher and she is annoyed that she will need to teach religion, she is totally against the RCC and all religion yet she was baptised - so she will be counted as a "Catholic school teacher".

tretorn

So what if most of the teachers are white Irish.

Go to a muslim country and guess what all the schools will be muslim and all the teachers will be too unless there is a shortage of teachers and then non muslim teachers can get in for a limited time. They will follow the local culture though so maybe no alcohol and women will cover themselves head to toe.

The Rape of Lucretia

tretorn wrote: »

So what if most of the teachers are white Irish.

Go to a muslim country and guess what all the schools will be muslim and all the teachers will be too unless there is a shortage of teachers and then non muslim teachers can get in for a limited time. They will follow the local culture though so maybe no alcohol and women will cover themselves head to toe.

But then Muslim countries are still populated by muslims.
Ireland has a catholic history but isnt really catholic today. If teachers were overwhelmingly catholic, then that would be out of line with the students. Of course, we all know most of the catholic teachers arent truly catholic, but must go along with it as part of their jobs. So really its a moot point.
Or, the real victims here are all the teachers forced to feign a belief they know is nonsense in order to conform with the expectations of their jobs.

Hector Savage

tretorn wrote: »

So what if most of the teachers are white Irish.

Go to a muslim country and guess what all the schools will be muslim and all the teachers will be too unless there is a shortage of teachers and then non muslim teachers can get in for a limited time. They will follow the local culture though so maybe no alcohol and women will cover themselves head to toe.

Yeah but thats progressive!

Mrs OBumble

The irish language requirement has guaranteed this until recently.

The children of immigrants who have been educated here and so have irish are starting to enter the workforce. Msny have better Irish than the Irish, because they learned several languages as kids. Some of them will train as teachers. Things will change just more slowly than most jobs.

Stroke Politics

To work in a school, you have to apply to the principal, who is the representative of the patron of the school, 92% of patrons are Catholic bishops bishop. To be interviewed for nearly all of the posts as a primary teacher, you have to have completed a Certificate in Religious Education. To qualify as a teacher through the training colleges, you have to complete the module leading onto the award of the certificate in religious education. We have a religious-controlled education system with very little alternatives available...

meeeeh

So they did research about religious beliefs, nationality, skin colour but forgot to include gender? I'm the last person to go on and on with 'what about men' type statements but this time the question is relevant. They had certain agenda in mind and included only categories that fitted that agenda in research. A bit diversity among teachers would be good but don't tailor the research to make a point.

Btw the religion of someone should be irrelevant and personal. What religion is someone should not be relevant for the job or the research.

Now, if only the Irish electorate could prioritise the Irish state paying billions of euro to buy out the private international business known as the Roman Church from owning the vast majority of Irish schools.

Until they do, beggars can't be choosers: for as long as this state decides to depend upon using the private property of that foreign business, it remains in no position to be giving out about a Roman Catholic-owned school being, eh, Catholic.

Some people need an almighty kick up the arse when it comes to understanding the concept of private property and the fact that c. 85% of all schools in Ireland are private schools, owned by private foreign religious businesses such as the Roman and Anglican churches. Don't blame those churches; blame the priorities of Irish people and their governments who want to use those services without spending billions to own the properties and remove schools (and hospitals) in Ireland from the control of those private businesses.

So, what services will be cut back/lost if the Irish state decides it will buy out all those properties? (bearing in mind that to buy a single school on Ailesbury Road would probably cost c. €100 million) Far better to rant about the current situation than to make those choices that could change it, it appears.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

So they did research about religious beliefs, nationality, skin colour but forgot to include gender? I'm the last person to go on and on with 'what about men' type statements but this time the question is relevant. They had certain agenda in mind and included only categories that fitted that agenda in research. A bit diversity among teachers would be good but don't tailor the research to make a point.

Btw the religion of someone should be irrelevant and personal. What religion is someone should not be relevant for the job or the research.

Yeah it's a bit crazy how female dominated it is. I think we should have both

listermint

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Match? Hah, if 11.6% of teachers were "Non-Irish" you'd still have people crying foul.

And I love how people gloss over why they have to be Catholic. In Catholic schools :rolleyes:
The church dirtied it's bib, big time. In particular the Christian brothers. Elements within that organisation have permanently ruined it's name and they will never wield the influence they had over Ireland. That's not a bad thing, either. They've had their day. Now, they're a useful buffer imo, little more.

But without the Church, the Nuns or Christian brothers at the time Ireland would probably be less literate today than Somalia. The Irish Government were completely incapable of educating the country and depended wholly on the the church to fund and run Ireland's mainstream education.

Just to tidy this up a bit,.

When you say Fund, you do mean getting paid to do so from Government coffers. and getting gifted land by the governments of the day or locals to do so.


The nonsense that the Church was financing education and social issues in local towns across the country has to stop. There wasnt some Vatican Catholic lead social fund building schools and funding their operation.

That is mistruth.

Hector Bellend

benjamin d wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/primary-teachers-disproportionately-white-irish-and-catholic-1.3642624?mode=amp

So after years of de facto banning anyone who isn't an Irish speaking Catholic from being a primary teacher, a study has noticed Irish teachers aren't very diverse. Well done them.

I know a few people who would've liked to have been teachers but didn't feel comfortable having to toe the catholic church's line to do it.

Maybe the relentless pursuit of "diversity" will finally do what thousands of people have been calling for for years and rid us of the church in schools? Here's hoping...

Theyre there to teach. Who cares if they are diverse or not? It would be better to judge them on their ability to teach rather than anything else

Mint Sauce

I would imagine the stats would be the same for most places, considering that we are a traditionaly white catholic country.

kneemos wrote: »

Almost exclusively female also.

Unfortunetly, society has done this, and is probably down to a fear or aprehension for men to be teachers or in charge of kids, in case of an abuse claim.

Most fellas I know, including my self, would be fearful of tending to a lone kid on the street, or if one had fallen, and would probably look for its mother, or the nearest female, incase we got accused of something.

Turnipman

"“For many students who are refugees, have certain learning difficulties, or have come from abroad and did not speak English when they enrolled in school, the door to primary teaching is closed early as they can be granted an exemption from the otherwise obligatory Irish instruction at school, where Irish, English and Maths are essential subjects for applicants to primary teacher education programmes in Ireland, a barrier to non-Irish nationals who weren’t educated in Ireland,” said Dr Heinz.


Sloppy editing from the IT. Alternatively, Doctor 57 Varieties is talking through her germanic arse.

Mickeroo

Is thee anything to be said for another strike?

Turnipman

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Unfortunetly, society has done this, and is probably down to a fear or aprehension for men to be teachers or in charge of kids, in case of an abuse claim.

Most fellas I know, including my self, would be fearful of tending to a lone kid on the street, or if one had fallen, and would probably look for its mother, or the nearest female, incase we got accused of something.

Looking on the more positive side, male Primary Teachers are like gold dust so have a pick of the jobs when they graduate, as well as the pick of the women while studying! So it's not all bad.

Renegade Mechanic

listermint wrote: »

Just to tidy this up a bit,.

When you say Fund, you do mean getting paid to do so from Government coffers. and getting gifted land by the governments of the day or locals to do so.


The nonsense that the Church was financing education and social issues in local towns across the country has to stop. There wasnt some Vatican Catholic lead social fund building schools and funding their operation.

That is mistruth.

Populist rubbish, the Church wasn't given that much - far less than farmers around the 1900s - not that that was wrong, either.

And said nonsense didn't start. I never mentioned social issues. "Fund" was a vague term, admittedly, but the fact is that without the Catholic Church, Ireland's education back then simply wasn't possible through lack of Government interest/ability. Irish govt got much more back in service than it gave out in anything.

That people en masse are waking up to the crimes committed by the church is a good thing, but it doesn't change how instrumental they were in guaranteeing millions of people the ability to read and write.

Gimme A Pound

Primary teaching has always been dominated by women, with or without the fear of being viewed as a paedo.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Hector Savage wrote: »

Course I'm not seriously suggesting thats a possibility.
I just don't know what the IT is complaining about - the stat shows a pretty fair reflection of the demographic of the country itself, so no big deal.

No, it doesn't. There is a large amount of athiest/agnostic/non-catholic christians out there. Considerably more than radical muslims.

Also they might be "catholic" just like I am officially "catholic" , but doubt they are practicing.
My sister in law is training right now to be a primary school teacher and she is annoyed that she will need to teach religion, she is totally against the RCC and all religion yet she was baptised - so she will be counted as a "Catholic school teacher".

My point entirely. But for some reason, though, you felt "radical Islamic" was a more likely option than unaffiliated/agnostic Christians for a non-catholic teacher. (And yes, you did feel that: otherwise the post wouldn't exist).

TCM

Edgware wrote:

So to be more "inclusive" let's employ thickos as teachers

That was my point - although not put as succinctly as yourself. The first requirement to be a teacher is that the applicant is intelligent and well educated. This diversity issue is a long way down the line as far as I'm concerned.

mcmoustache

Christian Orange Venus wrote: »

Primary teaching has always been dominated by women, with or without the fear of being viewed as a paedo.

IT certainly was. Even back in the days when paedophilia was tolerated, and even actively protected and covered up by the RCC and its members, women still made up the majority of primary school teachers.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

TCM wrote: »

That was my point - although not put as succinctly as yourself. The first requirement to be a teacher is that the applicant is intelligent and well educated. This diversity issue is a long way down the line as far as I'm concerned.

Have you any evidence to suggest diversity has resulted in unqualified teachers being hired? As in, beyond theoretical?

The Tetrarch

benjamin d wrote: »

The problem is the rules around becoming a teacher and the routes to do it copperfasten that stereotypical demographic as the only type allowed. Must speak Irish, must do a catholic-led course, must (96%) teach to a catholic ethos. It's completely unfair to a lot of people.

... must wear a cardigan.

nice_guy80

The Tetrarch wrote: »

... must wear a cardigan.

They got rid of that requirement in 2002, thankfully

benjamin d

Hector Bellend wrote: »

Theyre there to teach. Who cares if they are diverse or not? It would be better to judge them on their ability to teach rather than anything else

If only they were judged on their ability to teach. They're judged on how well they can pretend to be a good catholic while they're only in college, never mind when applying for jobs. Many people who would be excellent teachers are effectively banned before they've even begun. I'm not talking about some utopia where the teachers are all black or Muslim or gay or travellers, many standard Irish people are excluded from being teachers straight off.

I have no doubt many teachers aren't strict Catholics but the fact is they have to play that role to get a job and they have to teach to that ethos in practically every school in the country, so for all intents and purposes they are Catholics and they teach Catholicism. That is not representative of Ireland today.
For male teachers in particular I know for a fact that GAA players are highly sought after as they can coach the school teams. Not everyone in Ireland plays GAA or wants to.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Of, right, so those are the only options then? Trad Irish god-fearing Catholic and radical west-hating Islam?

There's absolutely nothing in between? You're sure about this?

The problem in a nutshell is that people want a traditional conservative education. Or at least they're told they do. And an Irish, catholic, preferably female teaching demographic is the best way of bringing this about.

Now, while there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, it IS limiting. You're going to get the same thing year in year out, and it's not going bring about a vibrant, modernised, expressive forward-moving generation when the country probably needs it the most.

While the church needs to get out of education there’s not much religious indoctrination going on in most secondary schools. For me religion as a subject was akin to civics. In fact we often discussed American imperialism.

Primary schools with the communions etc are different. Too much time wasted on that.

whisky_galore

kneemos wrote: »

Almost exclusively female also.

In much the same way as men dominate the bin collecting industry, it's just an easy choice to make. Can't force men to become teachers or force women to become bin...people.

Assetbacked

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

While the church needs to get out of education there’s not much religious indoctrination going on in most secondary schools. For me religion as a subject was akin to civics. In fact we often discussed American imperialism.

Primary schools with the communions etc are different. Too much time wasted on that.

I recall practicing Catholicism in primary school and learning about the Bible and Jesus like it was fact. Secondary school, IIRC, involved learning about the traditions and practices of different religions, eventually ascending into a movie-watching class with movies that preached somewhat philosophical questions (e.g. the Matrix). In effect, a waste of time the whole thing and would be better served with replacement as a basic philosophical module which provides the basis for all science and the humanities.

riffmongous

Christian Orange Venus wrote: »

Primary teaching has always been dominated by women, with or without the fear of being viewed as a paedo.

Indeed, the reason I always thought men didn't do it was because it was seen as a job for women, like nursing.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Primary schools with the communions etc are different. Too much time wasted on that.

Always wondered why priests and nuns didn't do that part of the education themselves. For one thing, they'd probably be better at it.

Assetbacked wrote: »

I recall practicing Catholicism in primary school and learning about the Bible and Jesus like it was fact. Secondary school, IIRC, involved learning about the traditions and practices of different religions, eventually ascending into a movie-watching class with movies that preached somewhat philosophical questions (e.g. the Matrix). In effect, a waste of time the whole thing and would be better served with replacement as a basic philosophical module which provides the basis for all science and the humanities.

You were lucky. We got grainy abortion videos.

BBFAN

It will just take another 10 years or so before this starts to change when children from non Irish backgrounds start to graduate from college.

As someone else mentioned earlier they often have better Irish than we do as they've been brought up speaking 2 languages from birth.