Should we convert to protestant?

Thinkingaboutit

:pac:

Thinkingaboutit

kneemos wrote: »

Will clean living upright citizens of other religions be refused salvation when a hard living murdering Catholic be granted salvation at will?

Salvation at will? Salvation is only given to those who elect to accept God's freely given Grace, have Faith, and do good works for as said in the Epistle of James (ii, 26): 'For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.' It was been noted by one Saint in the fifth century that many bishops, proud puffed up careerists, will be very likely found there. Narrow is the way.

Teyla Emmagan

I wouldn't mind being a protestant. Church of Ireland anyway, I don't know much about the rest. They generally are very community focused, way above and beyond the catholics. And they involve all ages of the community, in a positive way. Lots of focus on helping the less fortunate and each other. And of course traditionally more progressive about birth control and the like. I know a few people involved in their COI parish and it is very appealing, the amount of support that is there if you want it.

And of course the free soup.

kneemos

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

Salvation at will? Salvation is only given to those who elect to accept God's freely given Grace, have Faith, and do good works for as said in the Epistle of James (ii, 26): 'For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.' It was been noted by one Saint in the fifth century that many bishops, proud puffed up careerists, will be very likely found there. Narrow is the way.

Point being the murderer can be saved whereas the other guy cannot?

Del.Monte

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I wouldn't mind being a protestant. Church of Ireland anyway, I don't know much about the rest. They generally are very community focused, way above and beyond the catholics. And they involve all ages of the community, in a positive way. Lots of focus on helping the less fortunate and each other. And of course traditionally more progressive about birth control and the like. I know a few people involved in their COI parish and it is very appealing, the amount of support that is there if you want it.

And of course the free soup.

Not forgetting the traybakes.

road_high

Almost all COI I know and interact with friends/neighbors tend to be a lot more connected than the average RC to their church. It’s still important to a lot of them unlike most RC where it tends to be older generations now.
Know a few mixed marriages where the kids are COI as the faith was virtually meaningless to the RC spouse.

martinedwards

As an always Prod.....

I've been to RC mass.

the actual STRUCTURE of the service is VERY similar to Church of Ireland. Prods do the extra two lines at the end of the Lord's Prayer, but for a casual observer, they LOOK very similar.

I grew up Presbyterian, but for the last 30 years have been CofI, and for the last 12 years have ALSO been Methodist...... Complicated.... not for this thread!

Our Prod church, in a VERY Prod area of North Belfast has very close links with the RC monastery in Rostrevor. infact, they claim that the only time the brothers there have all left the building unattended, locked the doors and driven away....... was to come to a service in our church.

We regularly have a few RC folk who come to our services (about 150 at a morning service....... plus the few visitors of course!)

The range of style in Prod churches is massive.

there are CofI churches that are very orthodox, robed choirs and clergy, organ, chanting Psalms, lots of standing sitting and kneeling., basically a hymn sandwich.

there are churches that are more like a rock concert. contemporary band playing songs for 30 mins, then a sermon (not like a rock concert!) and a few more songs to finish.

My church is a mixture of the two.... we have (usually) 2 organ led hymns and then a 15 min contemporary set led by a band with drums, acoustic and electric guitar, bass and keys, but we are flexible and have had all sorts of other instruments as they are (a) needed and (b) available.

I've never had a "who are you and what are you doing here?" at mass, nor have I had it in any prod church.

MOST are a community. MOST have folks on the door to welcome people, regulars and newcomers. "Here's a song sheet, sit where you like, there's coffee after" sort of thing.

community?

After being in this church for the best part of 30 years, I can honestly say that I have friends here as close as my parents.

My son has just got a job in England and was in church for the 1st time with his English girlfriend (incidentally great niece of a RC Bishop) and the old dears who are my kids proxy grannies were all over them both, in tears that he was going, making sure that she would look after him properly, making sure that she was suitable for him, and once that was decided, making sure that he would look after her properly.

I have friends that I have made through church all over the place and keep in touch.

now I'm not claiming for a second that other denominations are less friendly or anything, but visitors to our church often comment on the family atmosphere we have (and we are really proud to have).

In short, if the OP is tired of his/her CHURCH then try another.
Whether or not it's the same denomination or not?
Jumping from one denomination to another is no real big deal in the prod side.
the wall between RC and Prod is higher, but is lowering.

shop around.

see what's on offer.

you might find a non denominational church in a warehouse somewhere that is the best thing ever.

you might find a Trad CofI that floats your boat.

or it might kindle a new love for the RC church either in your own parish or another.

homer911

martinedwards wrote: »

As an always Prod.....

I've been to RC mass.

the actual STRUCTURE of the service is VERY similar to Church of Ireland. Prods do the extra two lines at the end of the Lord's Prayer, but for a casual observer, they LOOK very similar.

I grew up Presbyterian, but for the last 30 years have been CofI, and for the last 12 years have ALSO been Methodist...... Complicated.... not for this thread!

Our Prod church, in a VERY Prod area of North Belfast has very close links with the RC monastery in Rostrevor. infact, they claim that the only time the brothers there have all left the building unattended, locked the doors and driven away....... was to come to a service in our church.

We regularly have a few RC folk who come to our services (about 150 at a morning service....... plus the few visitors of course!)

The range of style in Prod churches is massive.

there are CofI churches that are very orthodox, robed choirs and clergy, organ, chanting Psalms, lots of standing sitting and kneeling., basically a hymn sandwich.

there are churches that are more like a rock concert. contemporary band playing songs for 30 mins, then a sermon (not like a rock concert!) and a few more songs to finish.

My church is a mixture of the two.... we have (usually) 2 organ led hymns and then a 15 min contemporary set led by a band with drums, acoustic and electric guitar, bass and keys, but we are flexible and have had all sorts of other instruments as they are (a) needed and (b) available.

I've never had a "who are you and what are you doing here?" at mass, nor have I had it in any prod church.

MOST are a community. MOST have folks on the door to welcome people, regulars and newcomers. "Here's a song sheet, sit where you like, there's coffee after" sort of thing.

community?

After being in this church for the best part of 30 years, I can honestly say that I have friends here as close as my parents.

My son has just got a job in England and was in church for the 1st time with his English girlfriend (incidentally great niece of a RC Bishop) and the old dears who are my kids proxy grannies were all over them both, in tears that he was going, making sure that she would look after him properly, making sure that she was suitable for him, and once that was decided, making sure that he would look after her properly.

I have friends that I have made through church all over the place and keep in touch.

now I'm not claiming for a second that other denominations are less friendly or anything, but visitors to our church often comment on the family atmosphere we have (and we are really proud to have).

In short, if the OP is tired of his/her CHURCH then try another.
Whether or not it's the same denomination or not?
Jumping from one denomination to another is no real big deal in the prod side.
the wall between RC and Prod is higher, but is lowering.

shop around.

see what's on offer.

you might find a non denominational church in a warehouse somewhere that is the best thing ever.

you might find a Trad CofI that floats your boat.

or it might kindle a new love for the RC church either in your own parish or another.

Do they not pray in the COI Martin? 😀

martinedwards

homer911 wrote: »

Do they not pray in the COI Martin? ��

ach they do a bit!

n1st

Is Church of Ireland connected in any way to to English royal family?

Wouldn't it be great Irish Catholics could set up our own new church based on our own culture with Christianity. Possibly something less formal and with learning in favour of preaching and possibly more family friendly and fun.
But I guess the world doesn't need another church.

Mancomb Seepgood

n1st wrote: »

Is Church of Ireland connected in any way to to English royal family?

Wouldn't it be great Irish Catholics could set up our own new church based on our own culture with Christianity. Possibly something less formal and with learning in favour of preaching and possibly more family friendly and fun.
But I guess the world doesn't need another church.

The royal family play no role in the Church of Ireland.

I would have thought that the Catholic Church in Ireland has plenty of connections to traditional,even pre-Christian Irish culture: holy wells,the Week pilgrimage,Lough Derg,the Irish saints,etc..

It's been my experience that non-Catholic churches in Ireland have a closer sense of community but that may have a lot to do with the fact that numbers are smaller so it's easier to get to know people.Attending a Catholic church I always felt quite anonymous.Hopefully this is something that some parishes are working on.

In general,the perception of Protestants in Ireland seems to be closer to the Vicar of Dibley than reality, especially in the south!Not all Protestants are Anglicans either, it's a diverse spectrum and in many ways the most significant development in Irish Christianity has been the growth of African churches here,something which rarely receives any attention.

EdgeCase

I'm not religious myself, but I've seen both the Catholic Church and the Church of Ireland.
What struck me with the C of I is that it's very laid back, community focused and very definitely more something akin to Father Ted crossed with the Vicar of Dibley.

Their church services are extremely similar to Catholic ones, other than there's a bit more singing and they actually serve decent wine and had multiple options for bread, as it's just seen as symbolic.

It's really a slightly reformed catholic church (with a small c-), rather than a radically reformed protestant faith. So, it's extremely familiar.

I think though Irish people need to get rid of the baggage about the C of I being British. It's not.
However, it does have the legacy of the established church stuff before catholic emancipation, which inevitably left it with a bit of a tarnished image amongst Catholics

The Catholic Church also ran amuck when it had too much power and did a lot of damage.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The key there is to have a secular state, where no religion is ever established as the state's religious of preference.

It's worth remembering, many of Ireland's revolutionaries and some of our most prominent nationalists were protestants, even our first President, Douglas Hyde, who was a massive supporter of all things Irish, particularly the language through the Gaelic League, was a C of I member and the Church of Ireland itself has very much developed its own identity since independence and it's one that's not aligned to anything political.

As I'm absolutely not religious, I am definitely not in any rush to join any church, but I don't think the C of I is the worst option, particular as it's moved towards being a much more progressive, modern and religious-humanist type of organisation than its Roman Catholic counterpart.

In a way, I think where the C of I is now, in terms of how it's organised and runs, probably where the Catholic Church would be, if it weren't laden down with ultra-conservatives in Rome keeping it frozen between modernity and hardcore traditionalist teachings.

road_high

EdgeCase wrote: »

I think though Irish people need to get rid of the baggage about the C of I being British. It's not.
However, it does have the legacy of the established church stuff before catholic emancipation, which inevitably left it with a bit of a tarnished image amongst Catholics

The Catholic Church also ran amuck when it had too much power and did a lot of damage.

.

The RCC did that. They tried to monopolize Nationalism by painting the COI as English. So many people that wouldn't have personal interaction with COI might thank they're not "as Irish" as them. Which is complete and utter bollocks of course!

smacl

road_high wrote: »

The RCC did that. They tried to monopolize Nationalism by painting the COI as English. So many people that wouldn't have personal interaction with COI might thank they're not "as Irish" as them. Which is complete and utter bollocks of course!

They weren't alone in that regard, to quote Brendan Behan

The Borstal Boy wrote:

Don't speak of your Protestant minister,
Nor of his church without meaning or faith,
For the foundation stone of his temple
Was the bollocks of Henry VIII

Even reading this thread it seems that the remnants of this sentiment are still knocking about the place, even on boards.

Peregrinus

The claim that the CofI "is not British" does need a degree qualification.

The fact is that the CofI parallels the CofE in doctrine, worship, practice, liturgy etc to a very high degree. And this is because reforms which had been made to/in the English church in the sixteenth century were imposed on the Irish church by the colonial authorities, as part of a wider policy of "anglicising" Irish society and institutions, including the Irish church. Of course the reforms played out slightly differently in Ireland than they did in England, because the bulk of the populace didn't accept them, but the reforms themselves were a deliberate mirror of the English reforms, and were imposed by the English colonial authorities. So, yeah, the CofI started out as a church very much shaped in an English mould, and for English political objectives.

Of course, that's history. The CofI severed its formal links with the British state a century and a half ago, and it's the best part of a century since what is now the Republic was governed by a British administration disproportionately drawn from the ranks of the CofI. The CofI is now no more a "British" church than any other Anglican church around the world.

EdgeCase

road_high wrote: »

The RCC did that. They tried to monopolize Nationalism by painting the COI as English. So many people that wouldn't have personal interaction with COI might thank they're not "as Irish" as them. Which is complete and utter bollocks of course!

If you go back far enough a Pope granted Ireland to the Catholic English crown with a notion that they'd take us. They just split off in the Tudor era.

The C of I was the state religion and there was absolutely definitely politicisation of religion and oppression of Catholics and also the smaller protestant groups.

All of these organisations have significant political baggage and you can't just divorce them from their histories.

However, you can look at what they do today and how they're performing.

My view of it is that as long as churches keep their nose out of government, things work out just fine.

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

Of course, that's history. The CofI severed its formal links with the British state a century and a half ago, and it's the best part of a century since what is now the Republic was governed by a British administration disproportionately drawn from the ranks of the CofI. The CofI is now no more a "British" church than any other Anglican church around the world.

So not British in the same sense that Ireland is not British by that logic then, not forgetting we speak English in this country?

Nekarsulm

smacl wrote: »

So not British in the same sense that Ireland is not British by that logic then, not forgetting we speak English in this country?

We do speak English, of course, but you can hardly equate that to being British.
Despite being governed on an "all Ireland" basis, some diffrences arise.
If you are in a C of I church in the Republic,its the President and the Taoiseach who are mentioned during prayers.
If you were in a C of I church in Nothern Ireland, it's the Queen.
The country is divided up into dioceses developed pre-reformation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Ireland

smacl

Nekarsulm wrote: »

We do speak English, of course, but you can hardly equate that to being British.
Despite being governed on an "all Ireland" basis, some diffrences arise.
If you are in a C of I church in the Republic,its the President and the Taoiseach who are mentioned during prayers.
If you were in a C of I church in Nothern Ireland, it's the Queen.
The country is divided up into dioceses developed pre-reformation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Ireland

Tongue in cheek, hence the smiley. Point being that what was true at some point in the past doesn't make it so today. There are many remnants of the British empire knocking around the globe, none of which make those involved British. The English language spoken in this country is one, certain flavours of protestantism are another. To suggest CoI protestants in the Republic of Ireland are somehow more British (or less Irish) because of the foundations of their church would be a bit like saying Roman Catholics are more Italian. Its clearly nonsense but it has the potential to be divisive and damaging.