Tricky one...

bear1

So the wife and I are in the middle of a break-up and it's getting messier by the day.
We've 2 kids who I miss badly and struggle to see them as much as possible due to reasons I'll outline below.
The marriage break-up is a fault of us both, we clashed on too many things and resent each other for other issues.
Probably the death of our son was one of the biggest clashes we had and it's been pretty hard ever since.
This summer it finally came to a head and I was told to move out - note I also own half the house.
To save the peace I obliged and got an apartment on the other side of the city.
I've tried in vain to better positions ourselves financially with asking her to sell her car and I'd give her mine in exchange for free so she can still ferry the kids around.
I would then save up and buy another when possible.
Everything was good until a day before the sale she ups and changes her mind and throws a massive spanner in the works.
On top of this she has asked for over 50% of my salary in support which I've also tried to explain wasn't possible.
To counter this I've taken over double shifts at work and weekend work which is killing me mentally and physically.
I'm not sure how to meet her demands and she is now using the kids against me to put me further down and feel guilty I'm not able to financially support them in the amount she wants.
I earn twice as much as her but we also live in Warsaw - I came here for her.
I'm looking at the prospect of potentially having to move back to Ireland which after 10 years is just too much to handle for now.
I could sell my car at a serious loss to free up cash and tbh most of my cash is tied up in the house she wants to keep and I'm making no qualms about it as that's where my kids live but once she sells I'm entitled to my fair share of the profit which I bet she will also renegade on.
Do I sell everything and bow to her demands or stick to my guns and offer 1/4 of my salary? 1/4 is before my other bills fall due.

TheBoyConor

I could say my true opinion on here but I'd be infarcted or banned but suffice to say the case is that she wants the house and as much money as possible from you and wants you gone. She doesn't give a crap about you or what is fair. She just wants the $$$. Simple.

You shouldn't have moved out because that is playing right into her hands.
Get yourself to a solicitor ASAP.

meeeeh

Did you talk to a solicitor? Considering you don't even live in Ireland best place for advice would be someone in Poland who knows local laws.

bear1

Trying to find free time to get advice but have been reading up on local laws and regulations when it comes to this.
Seems that the general rule is 30% of your net income goes to child support.
I really wanted to avoid going down the solicitor route cause I wanted it as friendly and as calm as possible for the kids but alas she isn't playing ball.
I simply can't afford to hand over 60% of my salary and be expected to live normally.
Seems I'm between a rock and a hard place and the consequences here are both 1) financial ruin for me and 2) my kids ending up hating me as they will have a mother who will do nothing but speak ill of me when they get older.

meeeeh

bear1 wrote: »

Trying to find free time to get advice but have been reading up on local laws and regulations when it comes to this.
Seems that the general rule is 30% of your net income goes to child support.
I really wanted to avoid going down the solicitor route cause I wanted it as friendly and as calm as possible for the kids but alas she isn't playing ball.
I simply can't afford to hand over 60% of my salary and be expected to live normally.
Seems I'm between a rock and a hard place and the consequences here are both 1) financial ruin for me and 2) my kids ending up hating me as they will have a mother who will do nothing but speak ill of me when they get older.

Well you can go on and argue and try to find some information online. Or you can talk to someone who knows the laws, can go through the numbers, can advise on your share in the family home and so on. Judging by your posts the communication with your ex broke down completely and you need someone to at least mediate between the two of you. You've gone through some serious trauma and some outside perspective will be helpful. I think as a general rule everyone is poorer after the divorce.

December2012

I dont want to suggest I can offer you legal advice, but that sounds like an awful lot to deal with, so you both have my sympathy.

Have either of you had any grief counselling, or marriage counselling?

Is it possible that this aggro is an expression of emotion that is actually something else - fear, grief, stress?

In Ireland before a couple separates, they are recommended to go to mediation to see what can be agreed without getting messy. This is different to marriage counselling, but it might be something to consider.

bear1

December2012 wrote: »

I dont want to suggest I can offer you legal advice, but that sounds like an awful lot to deal with, so you both have my sympathy.

Have either of you had any grief counselling, or marriage counselling?

Is it possible that this aggro is an expression of emotion that is actually something else - fear, grief, stress?

In Ireland before a couple separates, they are recommended to go to mediation to see what can be agreed without getting messy. This is different to marriage counselling, but it might be something to consider.

It came up to go to marriage counselling but we had said so much to each other that it simply wouldn't have helped.
So we moved on from that and tbh right or wrong I just didn't want to continue down the road of being angry at each other everyday or ignoring each other simply to pretend we are ok and be back to square one in a few months. It wouldn't be fair on the kids or us.
We both felt trapped and since I've moved out I've felt more relief.
But I just don't want my kids to suffer and I want to give as much as possible.
I'll try and find time to get advice but as it stands this week I'll give 1/4 of my salary and see how it goes.
What a complete **** storm.

bear1

Tbh we are all losers in this. Money or not.

Mr. Incognito

Get a local lawyer

dudara

@TheBoyConor will take a 1 day break from the forum for failing to heed previous warnings about posting style.

All posters - no generalisations. Stick to offering direct, helpful advice to the OP.

dudara

BrokenArrows

bear1 wrote: »

So the wife and I are in the middle of a break-up and it's getting messier by the day.
We've 2 kids who I miss badly and struggle to see them as much as possible due to reasons I'll outline below.
The marriage break-up is a fault of us both, we clashed on too many things and resent each other for other issues.
Probably the death of our son was one of the biggest clashes we had and it's been pretty hard ever since.
This summer it finally came to a head and I was told to move out - note I also own half the house.
To save the peace I obliged and got an apartment on the other side of the city.
I've tried in vain to better positions ourselves financially with asking her to sell her car and I'd give her mine in exchange for free so she can still ferry the kids around.
I would then save up and buy another when possible.
Everything was good until a day before the sale she ups and changes her mind and throws a massive spanner in the works.
On top of this she has asked for over 50% of my salary in support which I've also tried to explain wasn't possible.
To counter this I've taken over double shifts at work and weekend work which is killing me mentally and physically.
I'm not sure how to meet her demands and she is now using the kids against me to put me further down and feel guilty I'm not able to financially support them in the amount she wants.
I earn twice as much as her but we also live in Warsaw - I came here for her.
I'm looking at the prospect of potentially having to move back to Ireland which after 10 years is just too much to handle for now.
I could sell my car at a serious loss to free up cash and tbh most of my cash is tied up in the house she wants to keep and I'm making no qualms about it as that's where my kids live but once she sells I'm entitled to my fair share of the profit which I bet she will also renegade on.
Do I sell everything and bow to her demands or stick to my guns and offer 1/4 of my salary? 1/4 is before my other bills fall due.

I suggest you try your best to move back into the family house. It was a big mistake to move out. Tell her you will be able to afford to give her more money if you move back in.

bear1

BrokenArrows wrote: »

I suggest you try your best to move back into the family house. It was a big mistake to move out. Tell her you will be able to afford to give her more money if you move back in.

It was her who asked me to. I refused the first few times but agreed in the end as the tension was too high.
If I were to move back in it would be a mitigating disaster.

Sephiroth_dude

She wants 60% of your income? what does she expect you to live on ? thin air? not a bit fair, How much less does she earn than you? I'd be moving back in asap.

who what when

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I could say my true opinion on here but I'd be infarcted or banned but suffice to say the case is that she wants the house and as much money as possible from you and wants you gone. She doesn't give a crap about you or what is fair. She just wants the $$$. Simple.

You shouldn't have moved out because that is playing right into her hands.
Get yourself to a solicitor ASAP.

This is the blunt truth unfortunately.

Purple Mountain

Bear I would just like to offer you my condolences on the death of your little guy.
I can't imagine that pain.
Perhaps in relation to the situation you find yourself on with your ex wife, would you suggest mediation to her?
That may seem less threatening to you both than a solicitor at this stage.
At least that way, if this proves futile, you can say you tried negotiation.
Please be gentle with yourself.
Daddies sometimes get overlooked when grieving for a child.

Senature

Hi, this sounds extremely difficult, I hope you are somehow managing ok. I would recommend you get some counselling for yourself to help you cope with the marriage breakdown and everything it involves but also your child's passing.
I'm sure you are still in a bit of shock over the split, and are worried about your children. When you have a few spare minutes write down what costs are involved in taking care of your kids per week/month. Food, clothes, school, transport, medical care, housing, heating the house, childcare etc. Focus on essentials rather than niceties. Deduct your wife's salary and any other income she has from this amount and you will have a rough idea of what money she really needs. This will help you a lot when negotiating, as you will know when you are being reasonable or not. Of course she is going to ask for what she wants doesn't mean you have to agree, or that you can afford to agree. And get legal advice, you don't need to feel bad about it, it will help you in the long run.

Senature

Also, re working double shifts etc. Presumeably this is not sustainable in the long term and therefore I would advise you to stop or significantly cut down. You will need energy and free time to spend with your kids. They need the love and attention of their parents more than almost anything else. Yourself and your wife will somehow have to work out how to provide for yourselves and your children until they are adults. If you have to work that hard just to survive, then either the expenses need to be reduced, or your wife needs to contribute more financially. Usually it's a bit of both. If you continue to work significant extra hours, you are artificially inflating your income which may result in you shouldering more of the financial burden than you can realistically afford in the long run.

BrokenArrows

bear1 wrote: »

It was her who asked me to. I refused the first few times but agreed in the end as the tension was too high.
If I were to move back in it would be a mitigating disaster.

As you mentioned its half your house too. Yes it may be a disaster in the short term but it will leave you in a better position in the long term.

Big Bag of Chips

I know you are in Poland, but have a look at www.solo.ie. It is a very good website and includes a spread sheet of expenses to help calculate fair maintenance.

bear1

Thanks all, pretty good advice and support from you. I'm meeting her tomorrow to ask her if we can cool things down and instead of focusing on ourselves to look after our two kids who need more than just money right now.
I'm offering 1/4 of my salary before I count my own expenses and tbh it's as far as I can be without getting drastic and selling my car.
Regarding her salary, I earn twice as much as her but it meant I shouldered much more in way of costs so it's pretty much balanced.
I suggested selling the house and downsizing which frees up cash on both sides and also gives me the chance to save for a deposit in the future but I was laughed out the door.
My family and friends have been 100% supportive which was also a huge relief cause I blamed myself fully for the breakdown.

zapper55

Her reaction to downsizing is very unreasonable. Honestly op a solicitor in Poland is the way to go. Otherwise you could be even worse off.

meeeeh

BrokenArrows wrote: »

As you mentioned its half your house too. Yes it may be a disaster in the short term but it will leave you in a better position in the long term.

Will it really? Op said the situation is a lot more bearable now that he lives away from home. He also earns twice as much as his wife who I presume has to take care of the kids to a greater extent. Unless op agrees to some kind of maintenance she could be under significant financial pressure too. Not to mention that kids would be the ones who would suffer the most. Op I really think some sort of local mediation / 3rd party advice would be much more beneficial than advice from keyboard warriors who think the main thing in separation is getting one over your former partner.

A woman who worked for my parents was married to abusive useless drunk. She was a bit dim, but harmless and working as a cleaner, doing some other miscellaneous jobs so her wages wouldn't be great. They jointly owned a flat and neither of them would move out so they never separated and continued to live in miserable situation. First the son committed suicide at 18 after having numerous psychological issues, years later her husband committed suicide. And just ladt year, a few years after daughter's relationship broke down, she killed herself leaving two young daughters. I don't know how much was due to a childhood kids had but anyone who knew the father would know no property was worth the price of living with him. That's an extreme situation and I am in no way implying op's is comparable but I know plenty of people who were scarred because there was no clean break up and there was poisonous situation at home.

I'm sorry about what you are going through op, I also suspect you could be quite isolated in Poland. So you really have to talk to someone who knows the local laws (what someone brought into marriage could be important), who knows family earnings and cost of bringing up kids and then try to get to some sort agreement with your wife. You are in a foreign country, you need someone in your corner, your wife will have much stronger support structure.

bear1

Yeah I completely intend to go down this route, ill give it one last roll of the dice tomorrow and see how it goes.

strandroad

bear1 wrote: »

Yeah I completely intend to go down this route, ill give it one last roll of the dice tomorrow and see how it goes.

Please suggest mediation. There seems to be a lot of trauma, resentment and just pure wretchedness in your situation and it might be not much different for your wife. If you leave it as is it will poison not only your divorce, but your parenting in many years to come.

professore

Bear, when did your child die - and how old was he/she ?

I unfortunately went through the same thing and we had 5 years of hell and totally out of character behaviour from both of us - I would say more so her than me but that is talking from my perspective.

My focus was on keeping us from bankruptcy while my wife was totally focused on grieving to the extent of completely ignoring our eldest daughter who was a teenager at the time. Of course it made me look like a heartless bastard but the reality was it was a distraction to take my mind off the enormity of what happened.

Only after our marriage very nearly broke up in year 4 did things start to improve.

I can't offer you any advice on the divorce other than see if you can get counselling / mediation and TRY to get into some sort of therapy. Both of you.

bear1

professore wrote: »

Bear, when did your child die - and how old was he/she ?

I unfortunately went through the same thing and we had 5 years of hell and totally out of character behaviour from both of us - I would say more so her than me but that is talking from my perspective.

My focus was on keeping us from bankruptcy while my wife was totally focused on grieving to the extent of completely ignoring our eldest daughter who was a teenager at the time. Of course it made me look like a heartless bastard but the reality was it was a distraction to take my mind off the enormity of what happened.

Only after our marriage very nearly broke up in year 4 did things start to improve.

I can't offer you any advice on the divorce other than see if you can get counselling / mediation and TRY to get into some sort of therapy. Both of you.

Child died 2 years ago this November.
It was a still birth which hit us hard... very hard.
We made it through but the scars remained and she went ahead with decisions which brought us damn near bankruptcy and forced me to work harder and harder in order to make ends meet.
I suggested a few times we try and move back to Ireland in order have a better lifestyle or at the very least earn what we deserve to earn but she was having none of it and this in turn made me feel trapped.
It changed my mood which then further changed hers.
We fought almost weekly which then became daily.
I do feel better since the decision, August was extremely hard and I honestly had no idea where to go or what to do.
Tonight I'm meeting her to discuss things and ask her if we can be back on friend terms for now and sort out the finances so the kids don't suffer.
I decided last night that I will sell my own car and use the cash to support the kids and to a lesser extent herself.
I'll keep the double shifts for as long as I can and also applied for new jobs to increase me salary.
I'll commit for now to 1/4 for the kids a bit extra for her in case she meets new expenses.
I can't be fairer than that I think.

bear1

meeeeh wrote: »

Will it really? Op said the situation is a lot more bearable now that he lives away from home. He also earns twice as much as his wife who I presume has to take care of the kids to a greater extent. Unless op agrees to some kind of maintenance she could be under significant financial pressure too. Not to mention that kids would be the ones who would suffer the most. Op I really think some sort of local mediation / 3rd party advice would be much more beneficial than advice from keyboard warriors who think the main thing in separation is getting one over your former partner.

A woman who worked for my parents was married to abusive useless drunk. She was a bit dim, but harmless and working as a cleaner, doing some other miscellaneous jobs so her wages wouldn't be great. They jointly owned a flat and neither of them would move out so they never separated and continued to live in miserable situation. First the son committed suicide at 18 after having numerous psychological issues, years later her husband committed suicide. And just ladt year, a few years after daughter's relationship broke down, she killed herself leaving two young daughters. I don't know how much was due to a childhood kids had but anyone who knew the father would know no property was worth the price of living with him. That's an extreme situation and I am in no way implying op's is comparable but I know plenty of people who were scarred because there was no clean break up and there was poisonous situation at home.

I'm sorry about what you are going through op, I also suspect you could be quite isolated in Poland. So you really have to talk to someone who knows the local laws (what someone brought into marriage could be important), who knows family earnings and cost of bringing up kids and then try to get to some sort agreement with your wife. You are in a foreign country, you need someone in your corner, your wife will have much stronger support structure.

Since moving out my salary has still been accessible to her so there has been no suffering financially from this stand point.
Apart from her pulling the sale of the car from under me which has caused quite a few ripples.

TheBoyConor

Op you do the tension rose too a level that you between giving her 1/4 of your salary just to diffuse things a bit.

Do you not see the problem here?

What this does is reward and reinforce her demanding behaviour. It tells her that making a big tense drama out of the situation will result in her getting more money.

The money you give her may quell things for a while but she's very likely to rachet things up again soon for the purposes of extracting extra money from you because the approach has worked for her before.

She's playing you like a fiddle and now that you've paid her off and appeased her demands so far you've set a very unfavorable precedent for yourself. Be prepared for her coming back asking for more.....

bear1

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Op you do the tension rose too a level that you between giving her 1/4 of your salary just to diffuse things a bit.

Do you not see the problem here?

What this does is reward and reinforce her demanding behaviour. It tells her that making a big tense drama out of the situation will result in her getting more money.

The money you give her may quell things for a while but she's very likely to rachet things up again soon for the purposes of extracting extra money from you because the approach has worked for her before.

She's playing you like a fiddle and now that you've paid her off and appeased her demands so far you've set a very unfavorable precedent for yourself. Be prepared for her coming back asking for more.....

Tbh, the money is for the kids. It's them that I want to be looked after.
I don't see it as giving her 1/4 of my salary, I see it as giving my kids 1/4 of my salary.
She wanted 60% and I said no so I don't agree that I'm being played here.
To get more money she needs to go down the court route and I don't see a court being able to justify me giving half my salary to her. Could be wrong at the same time.

TheBoyConor

I think you are playing with fire by agreeing to pay her according to her demand. I'd advise that it is safer for you in the long run to let a court weigh up the circumstances and have your maintenance set by court order.

TheBoyConor

Dude, you are being very hard on yourself. I just see you are selling your car and giving her the proceeds.

To be honest I think you are being very naieve here. You are crippling yourself to appease her demands.
The impression I get is that she is not interested in making amends, fixing things or even being in friendly terms. I get the impression that she is out to extract as much as possible from you until you've been exhausted as a source of income. At which point I predict that she might simply cut you off completely. And so far you appear to be going along with it, to some extent at least - as said you've even sold your car and are about to give her a some of not all of the proceeds. That's mad tbh, no-one should do this as it limits your employability and mobility severely.

I think you might be so deep in this mess that you can't see the wood from the trees.
I'd advise talking with a close friend who knows the situation and take a step back and look at the bigger picture and what is going on and get the opinions of your close friend on this.

I may be wrong, but from my reading of the thread, that is the impression I am getting.