"How would you feel if your country was 'carved up'"?

wexie

NIMAN wrote: »

I find it strange that many folk in the 26 believe that those in the 6 are not as Irish as they are.

You'd think Ireland was never one country before.

Many folks in the 6 seem to believe the very same...

Cee-Jay-Cee

Its ridiculous that's shes still prime minister considering that she was in the remain camp before the election. She should step down and let the people vote in a proper leader who can at least negotiate and take command of the situation.

wexie

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Its ridiculous that's shes still prime minister considering that she was in the remain camp before the election. She should step down and let the people vote in a proper leader who can at least negotiate and take command of the situation.

People aren't exactly queuing up to take control of the whole clusterfuck though are they?

Cee-Jay-Cee

wexie wrote: »

People aren't exactly queuing up to take control of the whole clusterfuck though are they?

`

True, who would want the job but if she has the countries best interests at heart then she should step down. An election would at least draw out what the people want now that they are slightly more aware of what brexit actually means.

banie01

The statement from Ms May just now is frankly a little ridiculous!

The imposition of any border on the Island will be the direct result of the UK's exit of the EU.
She has demanded the EU present alternatives?
Well, as I said in an earlier post. The UK joined a club with a rule book, The UK signed and Ratified the GFA.
Choosing to leave the club and throw away the rule book, does not mean that the club has to adjust its rules to suit you!
The EU does not need to offer a compromise in this instance, and indeed I really feel it should not.


The narrative on the UK news sites is very much blaming Ireland for this impasse, yes the border is the crux of this issue but the UK are not negotiating with Ireland, they are negotiating with the EU!

wexie

banie01 wrote: »

The statement from Ms May just now is frankly a little ridiculous!

Was reading that just now....it's an odd way of thinking if you ask me.

I'm not quite sure why she would think the EU needs to come up with a solution.

Odhinn

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

`

True, who would want the job but if she has the countries best interests at heart then she should step down. An election would at least draw out what the people want now that they are slightly more aware of what brexit actually means.

But it may just result in another PM being selected by the Tory party.

wexie

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

`
True, who would want the job

Nobody, because between reality and what the punters are expecting there is no way to take on the job that will end up with a positive outcome.

Voluntarily stepping in now would be an ugly and messy way to commit political suicide. Be easier to just retire

JohnMc1

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Ireland would have never entered May's mind when she said that. They don't think about us like we think about them. Ireland is a complete non entity to the average Brit.

Ireland is a non-entity to the EU. Merkel only remembers we exist when she's taking a dig at the UK.

Tea Shock

wexie wrote: »

I'm not quite sure why she would think the EU needs to come up with a solution.

Maybe because of this

Share of GDP exposure to Brexit

Ireland 10.1%
Germany 5.5%
The Netherlands 4.4%
Belgium 3.5%
France 2.2%
Czech Rep. 2.1%
Hungary 1.7%
Sweden 1.7%
Denmark 1.5%
Poland 1.3%
Slovakia 1.3%
Luxembourg 1.1%
Lithuania 1%
Estonia 0.9%
Latvia 0.9%
Austria 0.8%
Finland 0.8%
Greece 0.8%
Spain 0.8%
Portugal 0.7%
Italy 0.6%
Romania 0.6%
Croatia 0.5%
Cyprus 0.5%
Bulgaria 0.4%
Slovenia 0.4%

The Rape of Lucretia

Tea Shock wrote: »

Maybe because of this

Share of GDP exposure to Brexit

Ireland 10.1%
Germany 5.5%
The Netherlands 4.4%
Belgium 3.5%
France 2.2%
Czech Rep. 2.1%
Hungary 1.7%
Sweden 1.7%
Denmark 1.5%
Poland 1.3%
Slovakia 1.3%
Luxembourg 1.1%
Lithuania 1%
Estonia 0.9%
Latvia 0.9%
Austria 0.8%
Finland 0.8%
Greece 0.8%
Spain 0.8%
Portugal 0.7%
Italy 0.6%
Romania 0.6%
Croatia 0.5%
Cyprus 0.5%
Bulgaria 0.4%
Slovenia 0.4%

That explains why economically it is loose change to the EU - easily dwarfed by the importance of maintaining the cohesion of the 27. The exposure is minimal, and cushioning any impact in the Eire will be a small price to pay to demonstrate how the EU sticks by its members and truly is a union with 4 freedoms, not a cherry picking exercise.

banie01

Tea Shock wrote: »

Maybe because of this

Share of GDP exposure to Brexit

Ireland 10.1%
Germany 5.5%
The Netherlands 4.4%
Belgium 3.5%
France 2.2%
Czech Rep. 2.1%
Hungary 1.7%
Sweden 1.7%
Denmark 1.5%
Poland 1.3%
Slovakia 1.3%
Luxembourg 1.1%
Lithuania 1%
Estonia 0.9%
Latvia 0.9%
Austria 0.8%
Finland 0.8%
Greece 0.8%
Spain 0.8%
Portugal 0.7%
Italy 0.6%
Romania 0.6%
Croatia 0.5%
Cyprus 0.5%
Bulgaria 0.4%
Slovenia 0.4%

I'd actually use those numbers in a slightly different fashion to illustrate the impact of a No Deal on the UK.
44% of the UK's economic output across goods and services is exported to the EU.
44%, that is £0.44p in every pound their economy generates reliant on EU customers and frictionless trade.
The UK is labouring under the assumption that this trade can be frictionless and tariff free and that a large proportion of it can be redirected when new trade deals come into force.

The GDP of most countries apart from Ireland will be taken up by increased intra EU trade.
In our own instance, we would hopefully position ourselves to exploit the UKs exit but this will need particular attention around agri-food.

The Rape of Lucretia

NIMAN wrote: »

You'd think Ireland was never one country before.

Well, it never was really. Until we were united in the UK. And the technical curiosity until the 6 exercised their option to leave the 32 county Free State.

Loves_lorries

Deleted User wrote: »

What is wrong with what she said? 

She is referring to the idea of Northern Ireland being a separate customs area from the rest of the UK, i.e. effectively the UK being carved up in a way.

I don't think she is including the Republic in this analogy.

Borders inherently involve dealing with geography, Northern Ireland has an entirely different geography to England, Scotland and Wales, this idea that Northern Ireland is not managed any differently to the rest of the UK involves ignoring the reality of geography, DUP ideologues might expect water into wine but both London and Brussels deep down know that the defining obstacle with regards brexit is the northern Ireland border issue.

Either the border is in the Irish sea ( practical but politically toxic to unionists)

A hard border goes up (undoing the peace process)

Brexit is rerun and we carry on as before June 2016.

The current divorce plan is not achievable

Loves_lorries

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

That explains why economically it is loose change to the EU - easily dwarfed by the importance of maintaining the cohesion of the 27. The exposure is minimal, and cushioning any impact in the Eire will be a small price to pay to demonstrate how the EU sticks by its members and truly is a union with 4 freedoms, not a cherry picking exercise.

A vastly disproportionate effect in Ireland will be to the agricultural sector, very dependent on beef exports to the UK.

The Rape of Lucretia

Loves_lorries wrote: »

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

That explains why economically it is loose change to the EU - easily dwarfed by the importance of maintaining the cohesion of the 27. The exposure is minimal, and cushioning any impact in the Eire will be a small price to pay to demonstrate how the EU sticks by its members and truly is a union with 4 freedoms, not a cherry picking exercise.

A vastly disproportionate effect in Ireland will be to the agricultural sector, very dependent on beef exports to the UK.

Let them export cake.

indioblack

Carl Rapping Papier-mache wrote: »

Many of the countries of the EU were carved up by the UK in cahoots with The USSR, USA, and their other allies.

Yeah. They should've left well alone. Europe was doing alright.

topper75

daheff wrote: »

the irony is unbelievable.

Gibraltar (from Spain)
Malvinas/Falklands (from Argentina)
Hong Kong (from China)
Iraq/Syria/Israel (from Turkish empire after WW1)

just a couple of quick carve ups by the uk (without even thinking too hard about it).

There is an obvious irony for us.

The joke doesn't actually work in Theresa's British eyes however. They would see the Ulster partition as having already had 'their' country (UK of Great Britain and Ireland) carved up by a stalemate with traitorous rebels.

jmayo

daheff wrote: »

the irony is unbelievable.

Gibraltar (from Spain)
Malvinas/Falklands (from Argentina)
Hong Kong (from China)
Iraq/Syria/Israel (from Turkish empire after WW1)

just a couple of quick carve ups by the uk (without even thinking too hard about it).

I will always argue that Falkalands is not valid example since if anything it belongs more to the French than the Argentinians or even the Spanish.
Spain and later Argentina claimed it after English and French.
And British whalers and settlers were kicked off by the Spanish which then eventually morphed into modern day Argentina.

You have forgotten the glaring example of India and Pakistan hacked out of a roughly drawn line on a map by a British lawyer.

Oh and you also forgot Cyprus which has two massive chunks of it remaining as British garrisons.

Deleted User wrote: »

She's asking EU leaders. I don't know of too may EU countries that were carved up as a result of British policy. In our case we signed a treaty with Britain so our leaders at the time agreed to partition.

Ehh have you ever studied any European history ?
Who do you think was a major contributor to all those conferences and treaties that carved up Austro-Hungarian empire, the Ottoman Empire, French Empire, Russia, etc ?

Ever hear of the congress of Vienna beginning in 1814 that carved up Europe post Napoleon?
Actually here is irony the Brits were represented by two Irish born in Dublin; the Duke of Wellington and Viscount Castlereagh. :rolleyes:

Or perhaps you never heard of May's predecessor in 1938 going to Munich to help carve up the sovereign state of Czechoslovakia to appease Hitler ?

You are prime example why History should be mandatory subject in second level schools at least up to junior cert.

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

daheff wrote: »

the irony is unbelievable.

Gibraltar (from Spain)
Malvinas/Falklands (from Argentina)
Hong Kong (from China)
Iraq/Syria/Israel (from Turkish empire after WW1)

just a couple of quick carve ups by the uk (without even thinking too hard about it).

I will always argue that Falkalands is not valid example since if anything it belongs more to the French than the Argentinians or even the Spanish.
Spain and later Argentina claimed it after English and French.
And British whalers and settlers were kicked off by the Spanish which then eventually morphed into modern day Argentina.

You have forgotten the glaring example of India and Pakistan hacked out of a roughly drawn line on a map by a British lawyer.

Oh and you also forgot Cyprus which has two massive chunks of it remaining as British garrisons.

Deleted User wrote: »

She's asking EU leaders. I don't know of too may EU countries that were carved up as a result of British policy. In our case we signed a treaty with Britain so our leaders at the time agreed to partition.

Ehh have you ever studied any European history ?
Who do you think was a major contributor to all those conferences and treaties that carved up Austro-Hungarian empire, the Ottoman Empire, French Empire, Russia, etc ?

Ever hear of the congress of Vienna beginning in 1814 that carved up Europe post Napoleon?
Actually here is irony the Brits were represented by two Irish born in Dublin; the Duke of Wellington and Viscount Castlereagh. :rolleyes:

Or perhaps you never heard of May's predecessor in 1938 going to Munich to help carve up the sovereign state of Czechoslovakia to appease Hitler ?

You are prime example why History should be mandatory subject in second level schools at least up to junior cert.

I am aware of history, and I think we can all agree that carving up countries is something that often creates instability and is something that should usually be avoided. So her comments seem quite sensible to me.

I get the irony of the situation, but don't understand what else she is meant to say in the situation.

Sunny Disposition

The Brits v often lack an awareness of history, obviously ridiculous for May to come out with stuff like this. The education they receive on history must be very poor.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Loves_lorries wrote: »

A vastly disproportionate effect in Ireland will be to the agricultural sector, very dependent on beef exports to the UK.

I’m sure there will be some money for the farmers.

The U.K. still needs to import food though. It’s interesting that the op thinks prices will rise here but not there, but it’s likely food prices will rise in the U.K. there’s only so much import substitution they can do with food.

freedominacup

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

there’s only so much import substitution they can do with food.

According to a senior Glanbia executive speaking at a meeting I was at during the week they are only around 60% self sufficient across all food. They are going to be hard pressed to supply staples from their own resources everything they have to import at least initially will be subject to full wto tariffs paid for ny purchaser. Brit farmers are going to have a bonanza for a year or two.

Grayson

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

`

True, who would want the job but if she has the countries best interests at heart then she should step down. An election would at least draw out what the people want now that they are slightly more aware of what brexit actually means.

banie01 wrote: »

I'd actually use those numbers in a slightly different fashion to illustrate the impact of a No Deal on the UK.
44% of the UK's economic output across goods and services is exported to the EU.

It's more than that. I posted in the you didn't know thread a youtube video which showed how the non-eu trade is distorted by gold trading. If you remove gold from the equation it's about 50/50 EU/Non-Eu.

Plus we still have to consider how much trade with non-eu countries is done on the basis of an EU trade agreement. When the UK leaves, if it's a hard brexit, it will be one of two countries in the world that have no trade agreements what so ever.

wexie

Grayson wrote: »

it will be one of two countries in the world that have no trade agreements what so ever.

The other one being?

North Korea?

Grayson

wexie wrote: »

The other one being?

North Korea?

Mauritania I believe. A country that only outlawed slavery a few years ago.

Just googled and found this.

https://medium.com/@MrWeeble/who-actually-trades-solely-under-wto-rules-1b6127ce33c6

There's a few others but they're countries like the vatican or monaco.

corks finest

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Loves_lorries wrote: »

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

That explains why economically it is loose change to the EU - easily dwarfed by the importance of maintaining the cohesion of the 27. The exposure is minimal, and cushioning any impact in the Eire will be a small price to pay to demonstrate how the EU sticks by its members and truly is a union with 4 freedoms, not a cherry picking exercise.

A vastly disproportionate effect in Ireland will be to the agricultural sector, very dependent on beef exports to the UK.

Let them export cake.

Fencing off Josephine

The Rape of Lucretia

corks finest wrote: »

Fencing off Josephine

With their appetite to both have their cake and eat it, it will be a market with enourmous potential.

steddyeddy

mcmoustache wrote: »

Surely that must be a joke of some sort? Not that I would be surprised. In my experience, the Brits in general are quite clueless about Ireland.

I've met a substantial number of people here who don't know Northern Ireland is in the UK and aren't aware that Dublin is not.

badtoro

Zero sympathy for the imperial little englander brextards. They voted to leave, brexit means brexit, reap what ye sow.