Apple has just ponied up 14 Billion

dxhound2005

The country has paid out more than 14 billion in social welfare so far this year. It wouldn't go very far.

4068ac1elhodqr

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The country has paid out more than 14 billion in social welfare so far this year. It wouldn't go very far.

Maybe, 14,300,000,000 / 4,773,000 = €2,960
But that's for everyone in the audience, roll out the 2019 UBI there Róisín.
Thought it was 29k for a minute, so many zeros!

noodler

Hadassah Alive Hay wrote: »

Maybe, maybe not 14,300,0000,000 / 4,773,000 = €29,960
But that's for everyone in the audience, roll out the 2019 UBI there Róisín.

Straight off the national debt

dxhound2005

Hadassah Alive Hay wrote: »

Maybe, 14,300,000,000 / 4,773,000 = €2,960
But that's for everyone in the audience, roll out the 2019 UBI there Róisín.
Thought it was 29k for a minute, so many zeros!

Everyone in the audience manages to drink about €1300 worth of alcohol every year. Even the babies, using that method.

SEPT 23 1989

I would say to these foreign companies ok you can pay very little tax but for that pleasure the country requires

Your drugs free for our sick

Your latest technology free for our schools and colleges

donegal.

NIMAN wrote: »

Apple can easily afford this, its like a few cent falling out of their pocket.

I say take it, tell the world we are using it for the good of the Irish people, to try to solve this housing crisis, and spend it on that.

I think Apple won't mind, and won't move all their business out of the country as some fear.

Worth a punt?

But how are we going to spend it? Feck all of its ours.

riffmongous

sugarman wrote: »

It makes perfect sense, the cheaper tax rates more than offset expenditure spent elsewhere.

If its raised inline with the rest of the EU, why would they stay and pay through the nose for labour, property, contracts etc.. etc.. when they could venture further east to somewhere like Poland or Czech Rep and operate for a fraction of the costs?

But why haven't the other countries just offered them a similar low tax rate and taken them already? If the true value of these companies is in the jobs they create rather than the taxes they raise, and all we have to offer them is tax, how come they haven't been lured away already? Maybe there are other reasons they are here

sReq | uTeK

canonball5 wrote: »

What country would be given 14.3 billion and then turn around and say "ah lads, it's grand, we don't really need it".

Ireland because they're not so short minded to look at 14 billion compared to what the multinationals have done for this country since the 60's and to start to alienating them now would be suicide.

Larbre34

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Ireland because they're not so short minded to look at 14 billion compared to what the multinationals have done for this country since the 60's and to start to alienating them now would be suicide.

Absolutely.

I'd give back that 14 billion and pay 14 billion more to ensure our FDI and corporate tax policies are protected.

Some people just don't realise the benefit to the Country of long term quality employment and continued investment. The success of these policies are the envy of many countries, even much larger ones. Yes, they pay less tax on profits, but hundreds of thousands of direct and indirect jobs are the lifeblood of their local communities. We aren't Korea or the Netherlands or Switzerland, we dont have heavy industry or a monopoly on wealth handling or a major global port, this is our gig and we do it well. Without it we'd be a mossy rock in the north atlantic selling milk protein and quirky tablecloths.

ChikiChiki

Money owed and desperately needed. Yet the Govt still pander to MNC tax needs whilst simultaneously talking about hiking PRSI. Ffs lads it's embarrassing.

Sick to the teeth of FG. A horrible shower. We can afford to take this 14bn without reputational damage. Our tax competitive advantage will still remain.

jmayo

noodler wrote: »

Jesus.

I seen some random whataboutery on this site before but that's up there.

Yes, but it is true.
There are always one set of rules for the big guys and one set for the little guys.

Also interesting that your post is thanked by europhiles and merkel migrant supporters.

animaal

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Money owed and desperately needed. Yet the Govt still pander to MNC tax needs whilst simultaneously talking about hiking PRSI. Ffs lads it's embarrassing.

Sick to the teeth of FG. A horrible shower. We can afford to take this 14bn without reputational damage. Our tax competitive advantage will still remain.

Money owed, possibly. And we have already been told that other EU countries will take the bulk of it. so:

- We'll take the money from Apple
- EU will take most of it from us

We'll be the country that slapped a retrospective tax bill on Apple. It doesn't matter whether we chose to do it, or whether the EU forced us. Either way, it'll now be a precedent, and it will be a real risk for other multinationals.

I wouldn't expect an immediate exodus of multinationals, but why would the likes of Intel then choose Ireland over Isreal for their next big expansion? These decisions are close enough already, with Ireland losing out on some of them.

Over time, FDI in Ireland would shrink. But hey, at least we stuck it to the evil multinationals, eh?

Padraig Mor

animaal wrote: »

Money owed, possibly. And we have already been told that other EU countries will take the bulk of it. so:

- We'll take the money from Apple
- EU will take most of it from us
?

I can't claim to be an expert but I believe this to be incorrect - the money is due to Ireland (and the EU are trying to force Ireland to take it even though we don't want to for good reason) - but if we take it, it'll be the first and last time it happens. My understanding is as follows:

1. Apple sell stuff all over Europe but then send the money to HQ in Ireland through various iffy - but still legal - accounting tricks. They should then pay corporate tax here on all this moolah - again, this is perfectly legit.

2. Ireland then allows Apple to send the money outside of Europe without being taxed here in a blatant tax evasion process - this is illegal under European law which requires that the money is taxed somewhere in Europe - understandably so.

3. Recent EU court cases have established 2 above - that Ireland is facilitating Apple's tax evasion by not taxing it here.

4. Europe have essentially called Ireland's bluff by saying "OK, we'll let you away with Apple funneling the money to Ireland, but in that case it MUST be taxed in Ireland" - the 14 billion is the tax that Apple should have paid to Ireland but we facilitated them in not doing so.

5. Ireland's 'low corporate tax rate' is a complete red herring - no one in Europe really gives a **** about it - the real story is (a) the funneling of monies earned in the EU to Ireland without being taxed in their originating country and (b) Ireland's facilitation of tax evasion. The current legal process is (b) being tackled by Europe - but of far more importance long term is that (a) is also being dealt with by the proposed common corporate tax base - this will make Apple et al pay tax in the countries where products are actually sold, ending the funneling to Ireland - in which case no one will give two hoots about Ireland's tax rate because SFA will be taxed here. IIRC we have one large country backing our opposition to the new tax base - the UK, who are of course on the way out!

weldoninhio

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I can't claim to be an expert but I believe this to be incorrect - the money is due to Ireland (and the EU are trying to force Ireland to take it even though we don't want to for good reason) - but if we take it, it'll be the first and last time it happens. My understanding is as follows:

1. Apple sell stuff all over Europe but then send the money to HQ in Ireland through various iffy - but still legal - accounting tricks. They should then pay corporate tax here on all this moolah - again, this is perfectly legit.

2. Ireland then allows Apple to send the money outside of Europe without being taxed here in a blatant tax evasion process - this is illegal under European law which requires that the money is taxed somewhere in Europe - understandably so.

3. Recent EU court cases have established 2 above - that Ireland is facilitating Apple's tax evasion by not taxing it here.

4. Europe have essentially called Ireland's bluff by saying "OK, we'll let you away with Apple funneling the money to Ireland, but in that case it MUST be taxed in Ireland" - the 14 billion is the tax that Apple should have paid to Ireland but we facilitated them in not doing so.

5. Ireland's 'low corporate tax rate' is a complete red herring - no one in Europe really gives a **** about it - the real story is (a) the funneling of monies earned in the EU to Ireland without being taxed in their originating country and (b) Ireland's facilitation of tax evasion. The current legal process is (b) being tackled by Europe - but of far more importance long term is that (a) is also being dealt with by the proposed common corporate tax base - this will make Apple et al pay tax in the countries where products are actually sold, ending the funneling to Ireland - in which case no one will give two hoots about Ireland's tax rate because SFA will be taxed here. IIRC we have one large country backing our opposition to the new tax base - the UK, who are of course on the way out!

Ireland will see zero cents of the money. Ireland is not owed this money.

DChancer

weldoninhio wrote: »

Ireland will see zero cents of the money. Ireland is not owed this money.

Well the EU Commission disagree with you as do many other EU states, so we will all have to wait and see how it pans out in the EU courts in the coming years.

Deise Vu

Padraig Mor wrote: »

........

5. Ireland's 'low corporate tax rate' is a complete red herring - no one in Europe really gives a **** about it - the real story is (a) the funneling of monies earned in the EU to Ireland without being taxed in their originating country and (b) Ireland's facilitation of tax evasion. The current legal process is (b) being tackled by Europe - but of far more importance long term is that (a) is also being dealt with by the proposed common corporate tax base - this will make Apple et al pay tax in the countries where products are actually sold, ending the funneling to Ireland - in which case no one will give two hoots about Ireland's tax rate because SFA will be taxed here. IIRC we have one large country backing our opposition to the new tax base - the UK, who are of course on the way out!

While everyone hates the idea of enormous tech companies making enormous profits and not paying taxes I cannot see how this is going to work.

All international trade is the same, a product is researched and developed in one country, then manufactured in a different, low cost, country before being shipped to the wealthier countries where a local distribution network is allowed enough margin to encourage sales and no more.

Are we going to insist Toyota and Nissan send Corporation tax to us? Are Irish Farmers going to be told send Taxes to Europe for their produce sold in European markets? Are Peugot and Citroen going to send Ireland some CT? Or are we just going to discriminate against the Tech giants? I have no idea where the EU is going with this. They should just introduce a sales tax, which is contrary to the free movement of goods, and admit they don't really like the idea of a common trade area when it doesn't work for them.

weldoninhio

The amount of unpaid taxes to be recovered by the Irish authorities would be reduced if other countries were to require Apple to pay more taxes on the profits recorded by Apple Sales International and Apple Operations Europe for this period. This could be the case if they consider, in view of the information revealed through the Commission’s investigation, that Apple's commercial risks, sales and other activities should have been recorded in their jurisdictions. This is because the taxable profits of Apple Sales International in Ireland would be reduced if profits were recorded and taxed in other countries instead of being recorded in Ireland.

https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/news/%C3%A9-cinneadh-aontais-eorpaigh-nach-m%C3%B3r-do-apple-%E2%82%AC13-billi%C3%BAn-ais%C3%ADoc-le-h%C3%A9irinn_en

Geuze

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I can't claim to be an expert but I believe this to be incorrect - the money is due to Ireland (and the EU are trying to force Ireland to take it even though we don't want to for good reason) - but if we take it, it'll be the first and last time it happens. My understanding is as follows:

Great info here:

http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2016/03/apple-sales-internationalby-numbers.html

Geuze

This may help explain:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-c8D-NxY4B8k/VvA0WXkm3zI/AAAAAAAAZtU/fENlJNqy9Ew/s1600-h/Apple%252520Sales%252520International%252520Structure%25255B8%25255D.png

Geuze

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I can't claim to be an expert but I believe this to be incorrect - the money is due to Ireland (and the EU are trying to force Ireland to take it even though we don't want to for good reason) - but if we take it, it'll be the first and last time it happens. My understanding is as follows:

1. Apple sell stuff all over Europe but then send the money to HQ in Ireland through various iffy - but still legal - accounting tricks. They should then pay corporate tax here on all this moolah - again, this is perfectly legit.

2. Ireland then allows Apple to send the money outside of Europe without being taxed here in a blatant tax evasion process - this is illegal under European law which requires that the money is taxed somewhere in Europe - understandably so.

Please note that ASI very large profits will be taxed eventually, by the USA.

Seve OB

OmegaRed wrote: »

Its in [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Escrow Fund, so its still Apples until the law says otherwise.[/font]

that's not what escrow means

animaal

Padraig Mor wrote: »

2. Ireland then allows Apple to send the money outside of Europe without being taxed here in a blatant tax evasion process - this is illegal under European law which requires that the money is taxed somewhere in Europe - understandably so.

3. Recent EU court cases have established 2 above - that Ireland is facilitating Apple's tax evasion by not taxing it here.

I'm also very much in the "not an expert" camp. However, my understanding of the legal case is different from yours.

I believe the case legal to be centred on the allegation that Apple received a "sweetheart deal" when they set up here, resulting in lower taxes for them than for other entities operating in the state.

This legal case is then a look retrospectively at the tax paid, and a decision that it wasn't enough.

This is different (although not totally unrelated) to the concern in Europe that Companies are operating in various European countries but paying all their taxes in countries like Ireland.

Unless somebody with more of a clue than I have can clarify?

topper75

It'd be like Ryanair being made to chase down all their passengers over the last 30 years to shake them down for extras on historically paid fares so they could hand all the money on to Aer Lingus.

How much enthusiasm would they have?

It is not refusal of €13b. It is refusal to chuck away our key economic competitive advantage. It will remain our key advantage until there is an upturn in global demand for gorse flowers, turf, and rushes.