Women runners being harassed

Cabaal

pac_man wrote: »

Why is it disingenuous? Your making the claim that women receive more abuse then men when out running. I'd like to see some evidence of that but you don't see capable doing that.

It's disingenuous because you aren't interested in that data, you've said yourself that its just harmless anyway and it should just be forgotten about. So your claims that you even care are disingenuous.

This is just more whatabouttery nonsense so you can read it and then claim you have another pain in your hole over it all.

aloooof

pac_man wrote: »

Is that true? As I said from a sexual standpoint, women are more likely to recieve abuse. What about the other forms of abuse?

Ok so what other forms of abuse do you think men receive more than women? Genuine question.

walshb

This is a complete non issue..

Just Ireland: of the thousands and thousands of women out running each day, you could probably count on one hand the instances of “abuse” they’d receive...

Same for men...

What are people looking for here and expecting here?

aloooof

aloooof wrote: »

What they are saying is women are more likely to receive abuse / harassment then men.

pac_man wrote: »

Is that true? As I said from a sexual standpoint, women are more likely to recieve abuse. What about the other forms of abuse?

aloooof wrote: »

Ok so what other forms of abuse do you think men receive more than women? Genuine question.

pac_man wrote: »

Maybe physical abuse and the threats of been physically assaulted. Possible extension of men more likely to assault other men rather than women. "Toxic masculinity" and all that.

Ok, I disagree but I'll accept your premise.

My final question on this is, do you think men receive threats of physical abuse more then women receive sexual harassment / abuse?

Because, for my bolded comment to be false (which you suggested / questioned) that would have to be the case.

Dubh Geannain

If I'd a penny and then later a cent for every time I've heard "Run Forest Run", I could nearly pay a bodyguard to run alongside me.

Thankfully I've mellowed as I've gotten older as I've reacted, particularly to groups of teenagers, in the past. I actually made one lad fall off a wall once by checking my run towards him after he shouted something a bit more derogatory. Then all his friends turned and laughed at him instead. Most are just looking for a buzz and don't mean any harm though so I do my best to be much more jovial now and shout something inoffensive back.

As we come into the winter now I have to try to get home before the light is completely gone as my wife won't venture out in the dark. I've never in my life been fearful of going for a run myself but I feel her fear is more justified. I only have to worry about general nuisances and a potential mugging. On top of that she has to worry about sex pests and potential abduction.

I'd rate her chances of any sort of unwanted interaction as slightly higher than mine. I'd also rate the consequences of such interactions for her as worse too.

aloooof

pac_man wrote: »

I'd imagine it's hard to quantify and I don't know the answer to your question.

Fair enough. Personally, I'm be amazed if it's anywhere near comparable.

Also think the fact that you can accept that women receive more sexual abuse / harassment but find it harder to quantify the physical threats that men receive is in itself instructive.

walshb

aloooof wrote: »

Fair enough. Personally, I'm be amazed if it's anywhere near comparable.

Also think the fact that you can accept that women receive more sexual abuse / harassment but find it harder to quantify the physical threats that men receive is in itself instructive.

Sexual abuse?

What constitutes this in this thread/discussion?

Does it include harmless wolf whistles or harmless catcalling, as per the article linked in the OP?

Hurrache

walshb wrote: »

Sexual abuse?

What constitutes this in this thread/discussion?

Does it include harmless wolf whistles or harmless catcalling, as per the article linked in the OP?

I know you like to try wind people up, but wolf whistles and catcalling is not harmless.

walshb

Hurrache wrote: »

I know you like to try wind people up, but wolf whistles and catcalling is not harmless.

Go way ouha that.

It’s not sexual abuse either...

People go well out of their way to become offended...

So where or what is the harm in a man wolf whistling a female runner that he may think attractive? Most chilled out women would be chuffed with the bita’ attention...a harmless compliment...

ReeReeG

walshb wrote:

So where or what is the harm in a man wolf whistling a female runner that he may think attractive? Most chilled out women would be chuffed with the bita’ attention...a harmless compliment...

Must.
Not.
React.

no.8

delta_bravo wrote:

Male jogger (certainly not calling myself a runner!) have had the odd comment from a passing car. Worst I had was on a night jog around 10pm that a couple of travellers tried to steal my earphones and one of them threw a punch at me as I passed them. Thankfully they missed. That's about it really

Surprise surprise

brevity

walshb wrote: »

Go way ouha that.

It’s not sexual abuse either...

People go well out of their way to become offended...

So where or what is the harm in a man wolf whistling a female runner that he may think attractive? Most chilled out women would be chuffed with the bita’ attention...a harmless compliment...

Are you punch drunk

walshb

brevity wrote: »

Are you punch drunk

I must be, because I’ve never come across any woman who says she was harmed because somebody wolf whistled at her...

DEFTLEFTHAND

Cabaal wrote: »

While I'd agree that both sexes do experience it, it would be disingenuous to in anyway claim that there is a 50/50 split for the levels experience between male and females.

From any research I've seen previously women receive far more and of a more sexual nature as well when it comes to comments. Of course comments can vary depending on area, country etc but women do get more cat call type stuff then men would in general anyway. Women being followed can also be a thing, again depending on country or area but it certainly does happen.

I think receiving comments also tends to upset them more than it would a man.

DEFTLEFTHAND

walshb wrote: »

Go way ouha that.

It’s not sexual abuse either...

People go well out of their way to become offended...

So where or what is the harm in a man wolf whistling a female runner that he may think attractive? Most chilled out women would be chuffed with the bita’ attention...a harmless compliment...

Fellas might take it as a compliant.

Women could feel intimidated.

It's low rent behaviour tbh, to roll down a car window and comment on a stranger's arse or whatever.

eviltwin

walshb wrote: »

I must be, because I’ve never come across any woman who says she was harmed because somebody wolf whistled at her...

I personally find it intimidating but I say that coming from a background of someone who has been abused in the past. The rational part of my head knows their is no harm meant but when I'm alone, in that moment, it intimidates me.

I've had general abuse like all runners. The worst was after an early morning run in a local park I was sitting getting my breath back. A dog walker started talking to me telling me how unsafe it was for me to be out on my own etc. All fine until he stood looking down at me and told me he could drag me into the trees and rape me and no-one would be around to help me. I don't know if he intended to scare me but I was terrified. I pretty much stopped running in the morning after that.

walshb

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Fellas might take it as a compliant.

Women could feel intimidated.

It's low rent behaviour tbh, to roll down a car window and comment on a stranger's arse or whatever.

Hey, I wouldn’t do it myself, but seriously, the odd wolf whistle from a complete stranger now and again hardly constitutes harassment/abuse...I certainly wouldn’t be whingeing and moaning about it...

Other more serious stuff, yes, needs to be looked at...

ahnowbrowncow

walshb wrote: »

I must be, because I’ve never come across any woman who says she was harmed because somebody wolf whistled at her...

You must have fairly limited experience then. It doesn't take much imagination to see that a woman receiving sexual remarks or whistles from a stranger could be quite intimidating, especially in more secluded areas. Harm doesn't always mean physical, I would count something as harmful behaviour if it caused a woman to change her routine I.e. she feels she has to change her route, how often she goes running, what time and the need to carry a phone.

And that's from someone who thinks that the media is increasingly and inaccurately portraying women as victims.

walshb

eviltwin wrote: »

I personally find it intimidating but I say that coming from a background of someone who has been abused in the past. The rational part of my head knows their is no harm meant but when I'm alone, in that moment, it intimidates me.

.

Of course, the scene and circumstance is important.

A woman alone, off the beaten track and a male catcalls or wolf whistles her should be a lot more concerning as opposed to her not alone, in a built up area with people around...

Two examples: running in daylight with people around in a built up area and a car drives by and wolf whistles you...

Or alone, dark area and very few if any people around and a car goes by an you get wolf whistled...

The second example would be more worrying should that person not be doing it innocently/harmlessly.

Hobbyjogger

walshb wrote: »

Of course, the scene and circumstance is important.

A woman alone, off the beaten track and a male catcalls or wolf whistles her should be a lot more concerning as opposed to her not alone, in a built up area with people around...

Two examples: running in daylight with people around in a built up area and a car drives by and wolf whistles you...

Or alone, dark area and very few if any people around and a car goes by an you get wolf whistled...

The second example would be more worrying should that person not be doing it innocently/harmlessly.

Personally I don’t necessarily feel intimidated by the wolf whistles/horn honking.. its more p****ed of! I’m not out on a Saturday night done up to get noticed (not that it’s ok then either), I’m wearing shorts and a singlet because it’s practical and comfortable and the whistling/horns have the effect of making me feel like I’m somehow on show for these creeps. It just angers me that they feel the need to “appreciate my looks” while I’m out for a run. I don’t know if I’m explaining that right, but hopefully that helps understand the female perspective (at least my perspective anyway) a little more..

Agree with the context mattering, if I see that it’s a car full of lads messing with each other it’s one thing, another if it’s a quiet road and just one man in the car alone..

walshb

Absolutely. The context is very important...

A pattern is very important..

But just the odd random general wolf whistle or catcall, sorry, I think these incidents are nothing of concern, and that anyone saying they are is really blowing it out of proportion..

If my better half came home after a run saying some random guy wolf whistled her I’d think nothing of it. If it became a pattern, same guy doing it, or maybe approaching her as well, kind of stalking her in a sense, yes, I would react seriously...

So it really is about context and whether or not there is a pattern..

Murph_D

Harmless catcalls/harassment? This research suggests otherwise.

Same study as reported in The Independent.

Hurrache

walshb wrote: »

Hey, I wouldn’t do it myself, but seriously, the odd wolf whistle from a complete stranger now and again hardly constitutes harassment/abuse...I certainly wouldn’t be whingeing and moaning about it...

Because you're a bloke. It's hilarious how you being one and still feel like you can tell others how they should feel and behave if they're at the receiving end of inappropriate attention.

Hannibal_Smith

walshb wrote: »

Go way ouha that.

It’s not sexual abuse either...

People go well out of their way to become offended...

So where or what is the harm in a man wolf whistling a female runner that he may think attractive? Most chilled out women would be chuffed with the bita’ attention...a harmless compliment...

People go well out of their way to be offended? No. People go out for a run, mind their own business and get some muppet wolf whistling at them. You've read people in this thread saying they felt annoyed by it, who are You to tell them they shouldn't be annoyed?

Wolf whistling by or at either gender really is pathetic.

HelenAnne's stories really are startling.

OOnegative

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

People go well out of their way to be offended? No. People go out for a run, mind their own business and get some muppet wolf whistling at them. You be read people in this thread saying they felt annoyed by it, who are You to tell them they shouldn't be annoyed?

Wolf whistling by or at either gender really is pathetic.

HelenAnne's stories really are startling.

Don’t feed him!!!

Hannibal_Smith

OOnegative wrote: »

Don’t feed him!!!

Lol sorry

aloooof

pac_man wrote: »

I wouldn't be amazed at all. Where do I start. What is constituted as abuse? How much of this is reported? Was the person deliberately targeted because of their gender? The goalposts are constantly shifting in terms of what is deemed abusive or offensive.

I accept that women are more at risk of sexual harassment.I don't think that needs to be quantified. They are inherently vulnerable due to their physical difference. However I do think its shortsighted to automatically assume that women are more harassed than men when out running. Unless you have some research that can tell me otherwise?

See Murph_D's post above. It suggests catcalls etc are not harmless and should be considered abusive.

About street harassment in general, this study is from the US. Some excerpts:

The survey found that 65% of all women had experienced street harassment.

Among men, 25% had been street harassed.

EdgeCase

It would be very interesting to conduct an actual survey of how serious this is in Ireland. I know I am sick to the back teeth of being harassed by scumbags in certain areas of Dublin in particular.

I know women get it worse as there’s a sexual harassment element to it too, but I think it would be very interesting to see just how many times people are harassed as they go about their normal day.

The throwing things out windows at people seems to be an issue that occurs with groups of teens more so than sexual harassment. I’ve had it happen twice around Sandymount over the years. Milk carton and also a water bottle flung at me. I also had someone throw a hamburger at me on a bus in London one night.

I just don’t like the sense that you’re walking along or running along and all of a sudden you’ve got that vibe that you’re going to get abuse hurled.

glacial_pace71

It's definitely a more serious issue for women, as you just can't judge the gravity of the situation when it confronts you like that, i.e. what's a 1970s type attempt at 'banter' and what's an expression of a greater malaise in the harasser.

Just to add one minor side-show I'm a chap who started losing his hair in his late 20s/early 30s. By my mid-30s I generally shaved it or had it shorn to a 'two-blade'. I was wearing lycra before 'athleisure' became a concept. One thing I then found when out running was the nastiness of the homophobic streak in Irish society. It wasn't just the usual 'ya baldy fat-arzed bustard' when passing a bunch of teens, as that's a bit like their racism, i.e. not really being anything about racial superiority but just the first thing their limited minds can throw out at someone. No, the homophobic stuff could sometimes entail someone standing in a blocking position with a 'ya bucking queer' rant. Real aggression, expecting a reaction. (I sometimes chuckled at the thought of a Harrison Ford in 'Witness' type un-Amish reaction, but it's important to rise above it).

Several men on the thread have mentioned that casual violence or threat of violence in a men-on-men scenario, but there's no equivalence as such. Why not consider what a woman's experience would be of the menace and threat that's out there? I can fully see why some would feel intimidated into avoiding a particular route.

Pawwed Rig

Wasn't there a well known athlete that left Limerick because of harassment when running? Was it the great Catriona McKiernan??