Provisional or not

GreeBo

Seve OB wrote: »

But as per my situation above, if you do find your original ball outside the hazard you can't continue normally, it is tough titty and it is not in play and your second ball is in play and you have already taken 3

Nope, your provisional is a provisional if you announce it to be a provisional.

If you subsequently find the original the provo is abandoned as usual

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

Nope, your provisional is a provisional if you announce it to be a provisional.

If you subsequently find the original the provo is abandoned as usual

ah but in this case, you cannot hit a provisional

Miley Byrne

Seve OB wrote: »

ah but in this case, you cannot hit a provisional

You can hit a provisional wherever you want. You may not be allowed to use it afterwards but there is nothing stopping you from hitting a provisional at any time

IITYWYBMAD

Seve OB wrote: »

Here's one which might generate a bit of discussion.

If you hit a shot over water, you are close the far side, best part of 200 yards away and you just can't see the finish, but you know you have come up short of the green, yet reasonably sure you have clung on in the rough.

Ok, you are sure that you did not make the green, but unsure if you are in the hazard or not.

Seve OB wrote: »

Playing partners tell you that you are in the drink. So maybe you are in the water, but maybe you are not.

Playing partners are "responsibly sure" that you are in the hazard, you are not.

Seve OB wrote: »

There is a drop zone area a few yards away from where you first hit.

There is a drop zone, presumably for those who have hit the water? This is the crucial part of the analogy for me.

Seve OB wrote: »

Logic might dictate that you hit your provisional as if you walk up and it turns out your ball hasn't made it over, then you will have to walk back as the drop zone is right beside your original shot.

What do you do?

Ok, so you are not sure your ball is in the hazard, your playing partners are. As you cannot see your ball, you can assume that it may be lost outside of the hazard. In that case, you can play a provisional.

Should you walk up and find your ball in the hazard, you have the options as outlined by Greebo, but your provisional ceases to be in play.

GreeBo

Miley Byrne wrote: »

You can hit a provisional wherever you want. You may not be allowed to use it afterwards but there is nothing stopping you from hitting a provisional at any time

Exactly.

The rule doesn't mean you cant hit it, it means that you might not be able to continue with it in some cases (i.e. when your ball is in the hazard)

mike12

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Ok, you are sure that you did not make the green, but unsure if you are in the hazard or not.
Playing partners are "responsibly sure" that you are in the hazard, you are not.
There is a drop zone, presumably for those who have hit the water? This is the crucial part of the analogy for me.

Ok, so you are not sure your ball is in the hazard, your playing partners are. As you cannot see your ball, you can assume that it may be lost outside of the hazard. In that case, you can play a provisional.

Should you walk up and find your ball in the hazard, you have the options as outlined by Greebo, but your provisional ceases to be in play.

The only thing u can't do is play from the drop zone. The provisional has to be from the tee.
You can't decide after hitting the provisional that the ball is in the hazard without finding it and then take relief from the hazard. The provisional is in play.
If the ball is found the provisional doesn't exist and u have to go back to the drop zone.

Basically by hitting a provisional in this situation u are taking away your option to take relief from the hazard, unless u find the ball.

Seve OB

I never thought the ball may be lost outside the hazard.
it was either in the drink as my playing partners thought it was, or it was safe on dry land as I thought.

If I went up and couldn't find the ball.. there would be no question, it was back in the drink.

I thought it made sense to hit a provisional. if the ball was gone... it was gone, I would continue with the provo.

fact is, the rules state you cannot play a provisional ball in this circumstance

I have learned something.

Seve OB

needs to be a local rule to allow a provisional ball to be played.

Appendix 1 to the rules of golf, section 5.

Water Hazards - Playing Ball Provisionally Under Rule 26-1


If a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard) is of such size and shape and/or located in such a position that:


(i)

it would be impracticable to determine whether the ball is in the hazard or to do so would unduly delay play, and


(ii)

if the original ball is not found, it is known or virtually certain that it is in the water hazard,


the Committee may introduce a Local Rule permitting the play of a ball provisionally under Rule 26-1. The ball is played provisionally under any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 or any applicable Local Rule. In such a case, if a ball is played provisionally and the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may play the original ball as it lies or continue with the ball played provisionally, but he may not proceed under Rule 26-1 with regard to the original ball.


In these circumstances, the following Local Rule is recommended:


"If there is doubt whether a ball is in or is lost in the water hazard (specify location), the player may play another ball provisionally under any of the applicable options in Rule 26-1.


If the original ball is found outside the water hazard, the player must continue play with it.


If the original ball is found in the water hazard, the player may either play the original ball as it lies or continue with the ball played provisionally under Rule 26-1.


If the original ball is not found or identified within the five-minute search period, the player must continue with the ball played provisionally.

mike12

Seve OB wrote: »

I never thought the ball may be lost outside the hazard.
it was either in the drink as my playing partners thought it was, or it was safe on dry land as I thought.

If I went up and couldn't find the ball.. there would be no question, it was back in the drink.

I thought it made sense to hit a provisional. if the ball was gone... it was gone, I would continue with the provo.

fact is, the rules state you cannot play a provisional ball in this circumstance

I have learned something.

Then no u can't play a provisional, it's one of those odd rules. In your situation u maybe hitting from the same spot but a lot of times the drop will be in a different spot.

Seve OB

mike12 wrote: »

Then no u can't play a provisional, it's one of those odd rules. In your situation u maybe hitting from the same spot but a lot of times the drop will be in a different spot.

I made the point about the drop zone earlier on as it is basically beside the tee box on the par 3 in question.

other places, the drop zone would be in a more accessible area to the green and take less time to have to go back if you ball was not in the hazard.

GreeBo

The local rule is allowing you to *continue* to play the provisional even if your ball is deemed to be in the hazard, you can hit a provisional without this local rule but you cannot continue to play it if your ball is indeed in the hazard.

GreeBo

You could hit a provisional, the DZ only comes into play once you have established your original ball is in the hazard in which case the provisional is null and void and in your pocket.

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

The local rule is allowing you to *continue* to play the provisional even if your ball is deemed to be in the hazard, you can hit a provisional without this local rule but you cannot continue to play it if your ball is indeed in the hazard.

so without the rule,

you find your original ball, sitting pretty. tough. you have to play your provo and you are lying 3.

or your ball is indeed in the hazard. you wasted your time playing a provisional as you have to go back the far side of the yellow hazard and use your options to play your third.

so basically, no point in playing a provisional.

GreeBo

Seve OB wrote: »

so without the rule,

you find your original ball, sitting pretty. tough. you have to play your provo and you are lying 3.

or your ball is indeed in the hazard. you wasted your time playing a provisional as you have to go back the far side of the yellow hazard and use your options to play your third.

so basically, no point in playing a provisional.

No, without the rule you find your ball and you play it as with any other scenario.

The only difference is that a provisional ball doesn't save you from being in s hazard the same way as it does being oob.


It's the exact same as being unplayable you can't hit your provisional if you decide your original is unplayable.

The wording can be confusing but that's what it means.
When they say "you can't hit a provisional of your ball might be in a hazard" they don't mean that you physically cannot hit one, they mean if your ball is in the hazard then the provisional is not in play. Again, just like the unplayable rule since.

The reason for the local rule is so that you don't waste time on the scenario where fondling it in the hazard means a long trek back somewhere, but the provisional is still valuable once the ball is lost outside of the hazard. That's why you have to be virtually certain that its in the hazard as a lost ball odds typically much mod penal than a ball in a hazard.

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

No, without the rule you find your ball and you play it as with any other scenario.

The only difference is that a provisional ball doesn't save you from being in s hazard the same way as it does being oob.


It's the exact same as being unplayable you can't hit your provisional if you decide your original is unplayable.

The wording can be confusing but that's what it means.
When they say "you can't hit a provisional of your ball might be in a hazard" they don't mean that you physically cannot hit one, they mean if your ball is in the hazard then the provisional is not in play. Again, just like the unplayable rule since.

The reason for the local rule is so that you don't waste time on the scenario where fondling it in the hazard means a long trek back somewhere, but the provisional is still valuable once the ball is lost outside of the hazard. That's why you have to be virtually certain that its in the hazard as a lost ball odds typically much mod penal than a ball in a hazard.

you clearly don't understand the rule

go back and read the greg norman situation again

GreeBo

Seve OB wrote: »

you clearly don't understand the rule

go back and read the greg norman situation again

Normans problem was that he hit "a provisional" because he thought he was in the water, not that he hit a provisional.

Again, its the same as an unplayable ball. You cant declare "im going to hit a provisional in case my first ball is unplayable". You have played 3 off the tee.

You *can* play a provo if you think your ball is lost (outside of a hazard), this is not what Norman did. He had no reason to think his ball might have been lost outside of the hazard so effectively he elected to play 3 off the tee but then ignored that when he found the first ball.

Seve OB

how many times do I have to say

There was no chance the ball was going to be lost outside the hazard. None. Zero.

it was either in the water, or safe.

turned out to be safe.

prawnsambo

It seems we've gone through over 40 posts to come back to what I said in post #6.

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not a provisional ball in that case. It's a ball played under penalty of stroke and distance.

That ball must be played whether the original is found or not, so the answer is to go forward and see if the original ball can be found and go back to the drop zone, if not. Time consuming and all as that may be.

Edit: You have to be virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard before taking the drop.

Miley Byrne

Seve OB wrote: »

how many times do I have to say

There was no chance the ball was going to be lost outside the hazard. None. Zero.

it was either in the water, or safe.

turned out to be safe.

Well then it is a pointless exercise hitting a provisional if there is zero chance of the ball being lost outside the hazard, because it will never be in play. Surely you would know that rule though?

On a slight tangent here but I would argue though that in this instance that if you didn't find your ball after walking down to where you thought it was (after playing a provisional) that you couldn't then say it must be in the hazard. By playing a provisional you are basically saying "I'm hitting a provisional ball here because I think it may be lost". You cant say "I'm hitting a provisional here because it may or may not be in a hazard".

Basically by hitting a provisional it is implied that you aren't virtually certain that the ball is in a hazard.

CalamariFritti

Seve OB wrote: »

But as per my situation above, if you do find your original ball outside the hazard you can't continue normally, it is tough titty and it is not in play and your second ball is in play and you have already taken 3

Are you sure? Why would that be?

Seve OB

Miley Byrne wrote: »

Well then it is a pointless exercise hitting a provisional if there is zero chance of the ball being lost outside the hazard, because it will never be in play. Surely you would know that rule though?

Well the idea was not for it to be a pointless exercise, but rather to speed up play if it turned out my ball was in the hazard.

Miley Byrne wrote: »

On a slight tangent here but I would argue though that in this instance that if you didn't find your ball after walking down to where you thought it was (after playing a provisional) that you couldn't then say it must be in the hazard. By playing a provisional you are basically saying "I'm hitting a provisional ball here because I think it may be lost". You cant say "I'm hitting a provisional here because it may or may not be in a hazard".

If I walked down and didn't find it, the only place it was going to be was in the hazard. there was rough there, but not thick stuff. There was no possible room for argument. It was either going to be found above ground, or either lost or possibly found in the hazard.

Miley Byrne wrote: »

Basically by hitting a provisional it is implied that you aren't virtually certain that the ball is in a hazard.

I was virtually certain the ball was going to be fine. It turned out that it was. My playing partners (all 3 of them) were virtually certain the ball came back into the hazard.

I hit the Provo to speed up play in the order that if my ball was not ok, I would concede that it went in hazard and I would be lying 3. I realise now I was wrong. And no, I didn't know the rule. But I do now

Seve OB

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Are you sure? Why would that be?

because it is against the rules

CalamariFritti

Seve OB wrote: »

because it is against the rules

How could it be against the rules? You hit a dodgy ball then you hit a provisional. Then you go and find out whether the provo comes into play or not.

I can thinkk of a few situations where a provo may be unnecessary but I can’t think of any where it would be against the rules.

As to your situation. You lost me.
You say you found your ball outside the hazard and you can’t continue normally?

I’m thinking that is the one outcome where you will continue normally.

I’m thinking there are three possible outcomes here assuming you hit a dodgy ball and then a provo.

A) the ball turns out to be in the hazard. Pick up the provo. Proceed under hazard rule.
the ball is found outside the hazard. Pick up the provo. Hit your second shot.
C) the ball is lost ( and you can’t be certain it’s in the hazard or else see A). Your provo is in play lying three.

Am I missing something?

GreeBo

Seve OB wrote: »

I hit the Provo to speed up play in the order that if my ball was not ok, I would concede that it went in hazard and I would be lying 3.

Which is exactly what a provo is not for.

Miley Byrne

Seve OB wrote: »

I was virtually certain the ball was going to be fine. It turned out that it was. My playing partners (all 3 of them) were virtually certain the ball came back into the hazard.

Well hypothetically, if you couldn't find your ball when you went down to where you thought it was then you couldn't then say "it must be in the hazard". That's my understanding of the rule anyway. Either you are certain it's in the hazard or you are not. By hitting a provisional you are implying that you believe it's not in the hazard.



Actually in this situation if you are playing a match and and a ball could be lost inside or outside a hazard you are better off saying to your opponent "that's in the hazard". If it's found outside the hazard then great, if it's not found at all you have already said you believed it was in the hazard so you can proceed with a one stroke penalty. But that's a discussion for another day.

prawnsambo

CalamariFritti wrote: »

How could it be against the rules? You hit a dodgy ball then you hit a provisional. Then you go and find out whether the provo comes into play or not.

I can thinkk of a few situations where a provo may be unnecessary but I can’t think of any where it would be against the rules.

As to your situation. You lost me.
You say you found your ball outside the hazard and you can’t continue normally?

I’m thinking that is the one outcome where you will continue normally.

I’m thinking there are three possible outcomes here assuming you hit a dodgy ball and then a provo.

A) the ball turns out to be in the hazard. Pick up the provo. Proceed under hazard rule.
the ball is found outside the hazard. Pick up the provo. Hit your second shot.
C) the ball is lost ( and you can’t be certain it’s in the hazard or else see A). Your provo is in play lying three.

Am I missing something?

Because you're not actually hitting a provisional. You're hitting a ball under stroke and distance because you are virtually certain the first ball is in the hazard. Once you hit that second ball, it's in play and whether the first ball is in the hazard or not, it's out of play.

CalamariFritti

prawnsambo wrote: »

Because you're not actually hitting a provisional. You're hitting a ball under stroke and distance because you are virtually certain the first ball is in the hazard. Once you hit that second ball, it's in play and whether the first ball is in the hazard or not, it's out of play.

It is not if I call it a provisional. Which I wouldn’t do if I was certain it was in the hazard.

I’m either certain or I’m not. If I’m not certain the provo is perfectly legit. If I’m certain I just walk to the drop zone.

prawnsambo

CalamariFritti wrote: »

It is not if I call it a provisional. Which I wouldn’t do if I was certain it was in the hazard.

I’m either certain or I’m not. If I’m not certain the provo is perfectly legit. If I’m certain I just walk to the drop zone.

We're talking about the specific circumstances of Seve's situation. In this case there was no chance of the ball being lost outside the hazard. It's either there and playable or in the hazard. In that scenario, you can't play a provisional ball.

When you play the provisional, you have to say that you believe that the ball may be lost outside the hazard, not that the ball may be in the hazard. Otherwise there's no need for a provisional at all.

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

Which is exactly what a provo is not for.

so if a provo is not meant to speed up play, then why ever hit a provo?

you would just walk up look, cant find, walk back, hit your third.

hitting a provo, eliminates the need to walk back, thus speeding up play.

Seve OB

Miley Byrne wrote: »

Well hypothetically, if you couldn't find your ball when you went down to where you thought it was then you couldn't then say "it must be in the hazard". That's my understanding of the rule anyway. Either you are certain it's in the hazard or you are not. By hitting a provisional you are implying that you believe it's not in the hazard.

of course you can.

have you ever hit a ball down the centre of a fairway.
walked up the middle and then realise there is a little stream running across the middle, right where you saw your ball land. but your ball is nowhere in sight. it is absolutely accepted by everyone that the ball has to have run out in to the hazard.

happens all the time