Provisional or not

Seve OB

Here's one which might generate a bit of discussion.

If you hit a shot over water, you are close the far side, best part of 200 yards away and you just can't see the finish, but you know you have come up short of the green, yet reasonably sure you have clung on in the rough.
Playing partners tell you that you are in the drink. So maybe you are in the water, but maybe you are not. There is a drop zone area a few yards away from where you first hit.

Logic might dictate that you hit your provisional as if you walk up and it turns out your ball hasn't made it over, then you will have to walk back as the drop zone is right beside your original shot.

What do you do?

prawnsambo

Seve OB wrote: »

Here's one which might generate a bit of discussion.

If you hit a shot over water, you are close the far side, best part of 200 yards away and you just can't see the finish, but you know you have come up short of the green, yet reasonably sure you have clung on in the rough.
Playing partners tell you that you are in the drink. So maybe you are in the water, but maybe you are not. There is a drop zone area a few yards away from where you first hit.

Logic might dictate that you hit your provisional as if you walk up and it turns out your ball hasn't made it over, then you will have to walk back as the drop zone is right beside your original shot.

What do you do?

Why wouldn't you hit a provisional?
It's not going to take much time and, as you say, you'd have to walk back and hit your penalty shot if the original ball can't be found.

downthemiddle

A provisional ball can only be hit if you think the original is lost or out of bounds. You cannot hit a provisional if you think a ball may be in a hazard.

Seve OB

prawnsambo wrote: »

Why wouldn't you hit a provisional?
It's not going to take much time and, as you say, you'd have to walk back and hit your penalty shot if the original ball can't be found.

you would think so

Seve OB

downthemiddle wrote: »

A provisional ball can only be hit if you think the original is lost or out of bounds. You cannot hit a provisional if you think a ball may be in a hazard.

yep.

a bit stupid that isn't it?

prawnsambo

downthemiddle wrote: »

A provisional ball can only be hit if you think the original is lost or out of bounds. You cannot hit a provisional if you think a ball may be in a hazard.

Seve confused me with his red-herring 'provisional' ball.
It's not a provisional ball in that case. It's a ball played under penalty of stroke and distance.

That ball must be played whether the original is found or not, so the answer is to go forward and see if the original ball can be found and go back to the drop zone, if not. Time consuming and all as that may be.

Edit: You have to be virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard before taking the drop.

charlieIRL

I had this exact same scenario yesterday on the 8th in Tullamore. I hit my tee shot over the pond to the right of the hole (was aiming left but that’s another story) I was full sure it didn’t make it over but we didn’t see a splash. Searched for a few mins and no sign of a ball anywhere so it had to be in the water, nowhere else for it to go.

Proceeded under yellow staked hazard rules

kiers47

Seve OB wrote: »

yep.

a bit stupid that isn't it?

Because there is a difference between losing a ball and being in a hazard. What if you had hit a provisional walked up and decided that you were going to play the ball from the hazard? You leave the door open to all kinds of situations.

Golfgraffix

downthemiddle wrote: »

A provisional ball can only be hit if you think the original is lost or out of bounds. You cannot hit a provisional if you think a ball may be in a hazard.

Not true anymore. There is now an option to play what you could call a provisional provisional

I’ll dig out the wording

Seve OB

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Not true anymore. There is now an option to play what you could call a provisional provisional

I’ll dig out the wording

not sure, I think I saw it in the new rule book

Seve OB

prawnsambo wrote: »

Seve confused me with his red-herring 'provisional' ball.
It's not a provisional ball in that case. It's a ball played under penalty of stroke and distance.

That ball must be played whether the original is found or not, so the answer is to go forward and see if the original ball can be found and go back to the drop zone, if not. Time consuming and all as that may be.

Edit: You have to be virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard before taking the drop.

wasn't meant as a red herring
I would have thought it was fine to hit a provo in this situation, basically to save time going back if it turned out the ball was in the hazard

Golfgraffix

Q.
Is it true that, if a player’s original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, the player is precluded from playing a provisional ball?

A.
No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned – Rule 27–2c.

Seve OB

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Q.
Is it true that, if a player’s original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, the player is precluded from playing a provisional ball?

A.
No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned – Rule 27–2c.

think that makes a difference here

kiers47

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Q.
Is it true that, if a player’s original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, the player is precluded from playing a provisional ball?

A.
No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned – Rule 27–2c.

That's true but that does not answer the question above where Seve suggested playing a provisional for a ball in the water hazard.

Golfgraffix

kiers47 wrote: »

That's true but that does not answer the question above where Seve suggested playing a provisional for a ball in the water hazard.

Did he not say that he thought he was in the rough but partners thought it was in the drink ?

kiers47

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Did he not say that he thought he was in the rough but partners thought it was in the drink ?

I took that as he would be playing a provisional in case his partners we're right and he was in the hazard rather than that it was lost in the rough. He mentioned that it may have held on so thought that indicated that if in the rough it would be fine.

In any case that rule you quoted is the essence of it. If possibility of lost outside hazard then you can play a provisional.

Seve OB

Yea, I thought it was in the rough, not lost.

Golfgraffix

Seve OB wrote: »

Yea, I thought it was in the rough, not lost.

Ah! I thought you meant lost in the rough

billy3sheets

I had this scenario in a matchplay a few years ago. My opponent played a provo after he thought he may have gone in the hazard to the right of the green. All 4 players only searched along the hazard which was full of reeds, didn't find it so he played his provisional. I thought this was incorrect and he should have dropped other side of the hazard which was marked with yellow stakes.
I also had similar on Sunday, where I hooked a drive on a par 5. It most likely went into an hazard marked with reds but it wasn't visible from the tee. I was about to play it as a lost ball but my partners convinced me I should take a drop near likely point of entry.

It seems to be case between determining beyond reasonable doubt if it's likely to be in the hazard or not in the hazard.

If you went to search for it and didn't find it or see it in the hazard, then it's lost and you have to play 3rd from the tee. If your partners deemed it to be in the hazard then you'd have choice to play 3rd from the drop zone or the tee.

Golfgraffix

billy3sheets wrote: »

f your partners deemed it to be in the hazard then you'd have choice to play 3rd from the drop zone or the tee.

Im pretty sure that its up to you to decide and not your partners.

RoadRunner

Our place has a local rule allowing you to hit a provisional if you think you are in the river bordering the course. However the advice I've received from some members in the past regarding this local rule was incorrect.

kiers47

RoadRunner wrote: »

Our place has a local rule allowing you to hit a provisional if you think you are in the river bordering the course. However the advice I've received from some members in the past regarding this local rule was incorrect.

Would that be OB though rather than a hazard. So a provisional would be permitted anyway.

If not OB its surely red stakes so you could drop beside it in any case?

GreeBo

a lot can depend on how the hazard is marked.

Often there is long rough outside the hazard boundary which makes it more complicated to know if the ball is in the hazard or not.
IMO long rough should be part of the hazard to avoid/minimise this issue.

CalamariFritti

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought this was straightforward?
You have to be certain that your ball is in the hazard to proceed under hazard rules. If you didn't see a splash and the ball can't be found and no one else says they saw it 100% going into the hazard then you cant be certain and you proceed with your provisional, no?

billy3sheets

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought this was straightforward?
You have to be certain that your ball is in the hazard to proceed under hazard rules. If you didn't see a splash and the ball can't be found and no one else says they saw it 100% going into the hazard then you cant be certain and you proceed with your provisional, no?

And if you were then to look for it and find it in the hazard? You must play it as a ball in a hazard then? So, could you play your provo or would you have to return to the drop zone or the tee?

GreeBo

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought this was straightforward?
You have to be certain that your ball is in the hazard to proceed under hazard rules. If you didn't see a splash and the ball can't be found and no one else says they saw it 100% going into the hazard then you cant be certain and you proceed with your provisional, no?

You are correct, its just that if the area around the hazard contains long, "natural" grass it is considerably harder to determine if its in the hazard or not.
If the long grass area is part of the hazard and your ball cannot be found anywhere else, its reasonable to be certain its in the hazard.

It just makes it easier to determine the outcome if the hazard enompasses the heavy rough area.

BTW a splash isnt enough evidence to be reasonably certain, I believe thats specifically covered in the decisions.

billy3sheets wrote: »

And if you were then to look for it and find it in the hazard? You must play it as a ball in a hazard then? So, could you play your provo or would you have to return to the drop zone or the tee?

If you find it in the hazard OR you can be virtually certain it is (you get up there and someone tells you they saw it go in, you dont have to actually find it) then your provo is null and void and you are back to the usual options with the original ball, replay the shot (as you can do anywhere at anytime and for any reason!), go back as far as you want in line with where the ball last crossed the hazard and the pin or if its a lateral hazard take a 2 club length drop from the point the ball last crossed the hazard no nearer the hole.

I'm not a fan of drop point E here as I dont know how you are supposed to work it out.
https://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Rules/QuickGuide/Relief-Situations-and-Procedures/Water-Hazards

CalamariFritti

billy3sheets wrote: »

And if you were then to look for it and find it in the hazard? You must play it as a ball in a hazard then? So, could you play your provo or would you have to return to the drop zone or the tee?

Yes of course. You'd have to play under hazard rules the moment you find it there.

IMO there is no difference to any other provisional.
You play it to save time 'cos you're not sure where your ball ended up and whether it can be found at all. The moment you find your original ball your provo is out. Whether the original ball is in the hazard and you proceed under hazard rule or whether you find it outside and proceed normally makes no real difference. The provo is never a 'choice' ball.

Seve OB

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Yes of course. You'd have to play under hazard rules the moment you find it there.

IMO there is no difference to any other provisional.
You play it to save time 'cos you're not sure where your ball ended up and whether it can be found at all. The moment you find your original ball your provo is out. Whether the original ball is in the hazard and you proceed under hazard rule or whether you find it outside and proceed normally makes no real difference. The provo is never a 'choice' ball.

But as per my situation above, if you do find your original ball outside the hazard you can't continue normally, it is tough titty and it is not in play and your second ball is in play and you have already taken 3

kiers47

Seve OB wrote: »

But as per my situation above, if you do find your original ball outside the hazard you can't continue normally, it is tough titty and it is not in play and your second ball is in play and you have already taken 3

Are you suggesting that they should change the rule to allow you to play a provisional for a ball in a hazard.

As i mentioned earlier if this is the case. What if you find your ball in the hazard and it is sitting up nicely and you want to play it? But you are in the hazard and you played a provisional for a ball that was in the hazard. I understand that it could speed up play. But you are opening up a can of worms with this kind of rule.

Seve OB

kiers47 wrote: »

Are you suggesting that they should change the rule to allow you to play a provisional for a ball in a hazard..

no

kiers47

Seve OB wrote: »

no

Fair enough. My misunderstanding.

What is the query you had?

GreeBo

Seve OB wrote: »

But as per my situation above, if you do find your original ball outside the hazard you can't continue normally, it is tough titty and it is not in play and your second ball is in play and you have already taken 3

Nope, your provisional is a provisional if you announce it to be a provisional.

If you subsequently find the original the provo is abandoned as usual

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

Nope, your provisional is a provisional if you announce it to be a provisional.

If you subsequently find the original the provo is abandoned as usual

ah but in this case, you cannot hit a provisional

Miley Byrne

Seve OB wrote: »

ah but in this case, you cannot hit a provisional

You can hit a provisional wherever you want. You may not be allowed to use it afterwards but there is nothing stopping you from hitting a provisional at any time

IITYWYBMAD

Seve OB wrote: »

Here's one which might generate a bit of discussion.

If you hit a shot over water, you are close the far side, best part of 200 yards away and you just can't see the finish, but you know you have come up short of the green, yet reasonably sure you have clung on in the rough.

Ok, you are sure that you did not make the green, but unsure if you are in the hazard or not.

Seve OB wrote: »

Playing partners tell you that you are in the drink. So maybe you are in the water, but maybe you are not.

Playing partners are "responsibly sure" that you are in the hazard, you are not.

Seve OB wrote: »

There is a drop zone area a few yards away from where you first hit.

There is a drop zone, presumably for those who have hit the water? This is the crucial part of the analogy for me.

Seve OB wrote: »

Logic might dictate that you hit your provisional as if you walk up and it turns out your ball hasn't made it over, then you will have to walk back as the drop zone is right beside your original shot.

What do you do?

Ok, so you are not sure your ball is in the hazard, your playing partners are. As you cannot see your ball, you can assume that it may be lost outside of the hazard. In that case, you can play a provisional.

Should you walk up and find your ball in the hazard, you have the options as outlined by Greebo, but your provisional ceases to be in play.

GreeBo

Miley Byrne wrote: »

You can hit a provisional wherever you want. You may not be allowed to use it afterwards but there is nothing stopping you from hitting a provisional at any time

Exactly.

The rule doesn't mean you cant hit it, it means that you might not be able to continue with it in some cases (i.e. when your ball is in the hazard)

mike12

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Ok, you are sure that you did not make the green, but unsure if you are in the hazard or not.
Playing partners are "responsibly sure" that you are in the hazard, you are not.
There is a drop zone, presumably for those who have hit the water? This is the crucial part of the analogy for me.

Ok, so you are not sure your ball is in the hazard, your playing partners are. As you cannot see your ball, you can assume that it may be lost outside of the hazard. In that case, you can play a provisional.

Should you walk up and find your ball in the hazard, you have the options as outlined by Greebo, but your provisional ceases to be in play.

The only thing u can't do is play from the drop zone. The provisional has to be from the tee.
You can't decide after hitting the provisional that the ball is in the hazard without finding it and then take relief from the hazard. The provisional is in play.
If the ball is found the provisional doesn't exist and u have to go back to the drop zone.

Basically by hitting a provisional in this situation u are taking away your option to take relief from the hazard, unless u find the ball.

Seve OB

I never thought the ball may be lost outside the hazard.
it was either in the drink as my playing partners thought it was, or it was safe on dry land as I thought.

If I went up and couldn't find the ball.. there would be no question, it was back in the drink.

I thought it made sense to hit a provisional. if the ball was gone... it was gone, I would continue with the provo.

fact is, the rules state you cannot play a provisional ball in this circumstance

I have learned something.

Seve OB

needs to be a local rule to allow a provisional ball to be played.

Appendix 1 to the rules of golf, section 5.

Water Hazards - Playing Ball Provisionally Under Rule 26-1


If a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard) is of such size and shape and/or located in such a position that:


(i)

it would be impracticable to determine whether the ball is in the hazard or to do so would unduly delay play, and


(ii)

if the original ball is not found, it is known or virtually certain that it is in the water hazard,


the Committee may introduce a Local Rule permitting the play of a ball provisionally under Rule 26-1. The ball is played provisionally under any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 or any applicable Local Rule. In such a case, if a ball is played provisionally and the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may play the original ball as it lies or continue with the ball played provisionally, but he may not proceed under Rule 26-1 with regard to the original ball.


In these circumstances, the following Local Rule is recommended:


"If there is doubt whether a ball is in or is lost in the water hazard (specify location), the player may play another ball provisionally under any of the applicable options in Rule 26-1.


If the original ball is found outside the water hazard, the player must continue play with it.


If the original ball is found in the water hazard, the player may either play the original ball as it lies or continue with the ball played provisionally under Rule 26-1.


If the original ball is not found or identified within the five-minute search period, the player must continue with the ball played provisionally.

mike12

Seve OB wrote: »

I never thought the ball may be lost outside the hazard.
it was either in the drink as my playing partners thought it was, or it was safe on dry land as I thought.

If I went up and couldn't find the ball.. there would be no question, it was back in the drink.

I thought it made sense to hit a provisional. if the ball was gone... it was gone, I would continue with the provo.

fact is, the rules state you cannot play a provisional ball in this circumstance

I have learned something.

Then no u can't play a provisional, it's one of those odd rules. In your situation u maybe hitting from the same spot but a lot of times the drop will be in a different spot.

Seve OB

mike12 wrote: »

Then no u can't play a provisional, it's one of those odd rules. In your situation u maybe hitting from the same spot but a lot of times the drop will be in a different spot.

I made the point about the drop zone earlier on as it is basically beside the tee box on the par 3 in question.

other places, the drop zone would be in a more accessible area to the green and take less time to have to go back if you ball was not in the hazard.

GreeBo

The local rule is allowing you to *continue* to play the provisional even if your ball is deemed to be in the hazard, you can hit a provisional without this local rule but you cannot continue to play it if your ball is indeed in the hazard.

GreeBo

You could hit a provisional, the DZ only comes into play once you have established your original ball is in the hazard in which case the provisional is null and void and in your pocket.

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

The local rule is allowing you to *continue* to play the provisional even if your ball is deemed to be in the hazard, you can hit a provisional without this local rule but you cannot continue to play it if your ball is indeed in the hazard.

so without the rule,

you find your original ball, sitting pretty. tough. you have to play your provo and you are lying 3.

or your ball is indeed in the hazard. you wasted your time playing a provisional as you have to go back the far side of the yellow hazard and use your options to play your third.

so basically, no point in playing a provisional.

GreeBo

Seve OB wrote: »

so without the rule,

you find your original ball, sitting pretty. tough. you have to play your provo and you are lying 3.

or your ball is indeed in the hazard. you wasted your time playing a provisional as you have to go back the far side of the yellow hazard and use your options to play your third.

so basically, no point in playing a provisional.

No, without the rule you find your ball and you play it as with any other scenario.

The only difference is that a provisional ball doesn't save you from being in s hazard the same way as it does being oob.


It's the exact same as being unplayable you can't hit your provisional if you decide your original is unplayable.

The wording can be confusing but that's what it means.
When they say "you can't hit a provisional of your ball might be in a hazard" they don't mean that you physically cannot hit one, they mean if your ball is in the hazard then the provisional is not in play. Again, just like the unplayable rule since.

The reason for the local rule is so that you don't waste time on the scenario where fondling it in the hazard means a long trek back somewhere, but the provisional is still valuable once the ball is lost outside of the hazard. That's why you have to be virtually certain that its in the hazard as a lost ball odds typically much mod penal than a ball in a hazard.

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

No, without the rule you find your ball and you play it as with any other scenario.

The only difference is that a provisional ball doesn't save you from being in s hazard the same way as it does being oob.


It's the exact same as being unplayable you can't hit your provisional if you decide your original is unplayable.

The wording can be confusing but that's what it means.
When they say "you can't hit a provisional of your ball might be in a hazard" they don't mean that you physically cannot hit one, they mean if your ball is in the hazard then the provisional is not in play. Again, just like the unplayable rule since.

The reason for the local rule is so that you don't waste time on the scenario where fondling it in the hazard means a long trek back somewhere, but the provisional is still valuable once the ball is lost outside of the hazard. That's why you have to be virtually certain that its in the hazard as a lost ball odds typically much mod penal than a ball in a hazard.

you clearly don't understand the rule

go back and read the greg norman situation again

GreeBo

Seve OB wrote: »

you clearly don't understand the rule

go back and read the greg norman situation again

Normans problem was that he hit "a provisional" because he thought he was in the water, not that he hit a provisional.

Again, its the same as an unplayable ball. You cant declare "im going to hit a provisional in case my first ball is unplayable". You have played 3 off the tee.

You *can* play a provo if you think your ball is lost (outside of a hazard), this is not what Norman did. He had no reason to think his ball might have been lost outside of the hazard so effectively he elected to play 3 off the tee but then ignored that when he found the first ball.

Seve OB

how many times do I have to say

There was no chance the ball was going to be lost outside the hazard. None. Zero.

it was either in the water, or safe.

turned out to be safe.

prawnsambo

It seems we've gone through over 40 posts to come back to what I said in post #6.

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not a provisional ball in that case. It's a ball played under penalty of stroke and distance.

That ball must be played whether the original is found or not, so the answer is to go forward and see if the original ball can be found and go back to the drop zone, if not. Time consuming and all as that may be.

Edit: You have to be virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard before taking the drop.

Miley Byrne

Seve OB wrote: »

how many times do I have to say

There was no chance the ball was going to be lost outside the hazard. None. Zero.

it was either in the water, or safe.

turned out to be safe.

Well then it is a pointless exercise hitting a provisional if there is zero chance of the ball being lost outside the hazard, because it will never be in play. Surely you would know that rule though?

On a slight tangent here but I would argue though that in this instance that if you didn't find your ball after walking down to where you thought it was (after playing a provisional) that you couldn't then say it must be in the hazard. By playing a provisional you are basically saying "I'm hitting a provisional ball here because I think it may be lost". You cant say "I'm hitting a provisional here because it may or may not be in a hazard".

Basically by hitting a provisional it is implied that you aren't virtually certain that the ball is in a hazard.

CalamariFritti

Seve OB wrote: »

But as per my situation above, if you do find your original ball outside the hazard you can't continue normally, it is tough titty and it is not in play and your second ball is in play and you have already taken 3

Are you sure? Why would that be?