My spin today...

bogmanfan

Would be good to get a thread like this going. Basically just tell us where you rode, what trails, what conditions were like etc.



I had a quick spin up in Ticknock earlier. Rode the Coillte climb to the top, then Tokyo Drift, T-Connector, Rock N Roll and Metro back to the biking.ie hut. Tokyo Drift was sloppy but great fun. Every other trail was mint.

That new Metro is bedding in very nicely. I wasn't a huge fan initially as it more or less put an end to Evil Friends, which was one of my favourite Ticknock trails. But it's really grown on me.

conor1979

I was up in Djouce yesterday. Couple of lads in the club brought me down a few more trails.

Just getting into riding enduro style trails and there was some serious stuff for me.

Did some of the usual trails, xtc, benchcut, oroT, Phantom which was savage, a very steep one that goes from the car park that just re-opened and drops all the way down to the old Gran Canaria end and on down into the Bomb Hole.

Smiling from ear to ear I was even though I did have to chicken out on one of the drop outs!

steamsey

Good idea - especially the bit about trail conditions as we come into the sloppy season. One thing that came up when we were talking about having this forum was that clubs often decide to leave trails alone to let them recover - would be great to hear from people in clubs about what trails are in a jock and need to be left alone - not everyone will abide but it can't hurt.

ianobrien

I'm back after a break in East Galway (Portumna). Friday I did a bit (28km or so) in the mixed trails in Portumna Forest Park. Saturday I did a bit of exploring by taking the hiking path from Portumna to Meelick Church along the bank of the Shannon (plenty of lifting the bike over farm gates). I brought along a picnic and the bike is covered in a mix of mud/sheep crap. I came back via the road. Sunday I did a repeat run over the mixed trails in Portumna Forest Park and collided with a bridge, resulting in one very sorry wrist.

Wednesday/Thursday this week I'm thinking of heading to West Kerry for a break. Maybe the old railway line from Valentia Island back to Glenbeigh may be explored......

Yes I prefer the exploring aspect of MTB rather than battering down rocky trails.

xxyyzz

ianobrien wrote: »

I'm back after a break in East Galway (Portumna). Friday I did a bit (28km or so) in the mixed trails in Portumna Forest Park. Saturday I did a bit of exploring by taking the hiking path from Portumna to Meelick Church along the bank of the Shannon (plenty of lifting the bike over farm gates). I brought along a picnic and the bike is covered in a mix of mud/sheep crap. I came back via the road. Sunday I did a repeat run over the mixed trails in Portumna Forest Park and collided with a bridge, resulting in one very sorry wrist.

Wednesday/Thursday this week I'm thinking of heading to West Kerry for a break. Maybe the old railway line from Valentia Island back to Glenbeigh may be explored......

Yes I prefer the exploring aspect of MTB rather than battering down rocky trails.

Yeah those wooden bridges in Portumna are lethal when wet. I almost broke my elbow on one. It's a pity the way they designed the trails there, I know it's flat but they could have built a lot more flow into them if they knew what they were doing. Also the hidden trail anchors every 10 feet are deadly if you do pick up a bit of speed.

ianobrien

xxyyzz wrote: »

Yeah those wooden bridges in Portumna are lethal when wet. I almost broke my elbow on one. It's a pity the way they designed the trails there, I know it's flat but they could have built a lot more flow into them if they knew what they were doing. Also the hidden trail anchors every 10 feet are deadly if you do pick up a bit of speed.

Oh ya I saw (and felt) the trail anchors alright. There are a few places where the trail is settling and naturally drags you into some of them.

You are right, some of the trails don't really flow and are very narrow in places. Then, in places where they start to flow, you can't really see what's coming up and have to worry about colliding with a walker half way around the blind bend

They have new stone (about 1inch diameter) down in some of the trails and it's not bedded down yet (and saps energy).

bikedude

Don’t think is a good move to be posting directions to non official trails around the place.

Yes they are general knowledge if you MTB but they are still not official trails.

There are two Official Colite trails in Dublin/Wicklow and the GAP in Glenculen.

CramCycle

MOD VOICE: Can people PM which are the legal and illegal trails so I can edit above accordingly. Trespassing etc. whether generally accepted or known about is still illegal, I can edit out the illegal trails (I don't know which ones are which myself), but if no one comes back to me I will just have to delete the thread.

xxyyzz

bikedude wrote: »

Don’t think is a good move to be posting directions to non official trails around the place.

Yes they are general knowledge if you MTB but they are still not official trails.

There are two Official Colite trails in Dublin/Wicklow and the GAP in Glenculen.

Which post do you have a problem with?

ianobrien

From the Coillte websites, cycling is allowed in the following Coillte sites:
Derroura
Portumna Forest Park
Curraghchase Forest Park
Ballyhoura
Lough Key Forest Park
Donadea Forest Park
Avondale Forest Park
Ballinastoe
Ticknock

Some are dedicated MTB trails where bikes have priority, some are mixed trails where MTB are allowed but must give way to walkers (Portumna and Curraghchase are two I know of). Some are for gentle cycling and more family friendly trails/paths (Lough Key especially).

CramCycle

MOD VOICE: I have edited out the directions to those trails which people have PM'd me to highlight as illegal or unauthorised trails. I have left the names in on some posts for now as that isn't giving direction etc. If after reviewing it with the other mods it is deemed that it gives to much though, I will come back and delete them. If there are some that people think its poor form to even just have the name up, let me know and I can reedit again

steamsey

Feels like when we started this we said we wouldn't discuss trail building - and I think while it would have been very useful and interesting, it could create problems so probably best not to have those discussions here.

Now we seem to have landed on a place where even saying an unofficial trail names could be problematic - and I think that's a step too far.

CramCycle - you have to distinguish between what is unofficial, i.e not sanctioned by Coillte and illegal. You are saying illegal which certainly sounds great but means zilch at the end of the day. These trails are unofficial, or more accurately again, non-Coillte. That's it. There are Coillte and non Coillte trails. Nothing about legality. Let's not jazz this up beyond what it is.

xxyyzz

steamsey wrote: »

Feels like when we started this we said we wouldn't discuss trail building - and I think while it would have been very useful and interesting, it could create problems so probably best not to have those discussions here.

Now we seem to have landed on a place where even saying an unofficial trail names could be problematic - and I think that's a step too far.

CramCycle - you have to distinguish between what is unofficial, i.e not sanctioned by Coillte and illegal. You are saying illegal which certainly sounds great but means zilch at the end of the day. These trails are unofficial, or more accurately again, non-Coillte. That's it. There are Coillte and non Coillte trails. Nothing about legality. Let's not jazz this up beyond what it is.

Agreed, it's completely over the top.

bikedude

steamsey wrote: »

Feels like when we started this we said we wouldn't discuss trail building - and I think while it would have been very useful and interesting, it could create problems so probably best not to have those discussions here.

Now we seem to have landed on a place where even saying an unofficial trail names could be problematic - and I think that's a step too far.

CramCycle - you have to distinguish between what is unofficial, i.e not sanctioned by Coillte and illegal. You are saying illegal which certainly sounds great but means zilch at the end of the day. These trails are unofficial, or more accurately again, non-Coillte. That's it. There are Coillte and non Coillte trails. Nothing about legality. Let's not jazz this up beyond what it is.

They are ilegal, they are not autorized trails, it’s not over the top not to discuss the trails in a public forum, they are there now because of lots of work from other people to put the trail in place, and mantain it.

All it takes is someone to try one of the trails have a fall and decide to bring someone to court, and all the years of work to add the trails and the political work are gone.

If you want to know more about trails and be more active building and maintaining those trails there are MTB clubs like Mad MTB, Epic, IMBRC and you can join.

So it’s not over the top, and yes could be problematic, to post directions to it or in my opinion even the name of it.

steamsey

They are unofficial trails. There is nothing illegal about them. We have to use the right language because 1) they are not illegal so why say they are and 2) by calling them illegal you are admitting you openly know you are breaking a (yet undefined) law every time you ride them or tell someone about them. So even if it's just for your own sake - be careful with saying illegal.

We shouldn't post maps / directions to these trails or post descriptions of trail building work on private land without landowner's permission but it's a bit much to say it could be problematic to use the names of the trails. I don't see any issue with this whatsoever.

Part of the rationale for this forum was that clubs are not for everyone - I know they are there. I don't want to join.

I'll leave this topic alone now.

CramCycle

steamsey wrote: »

Feels like when we started this we said we wouldn't discuss trail building - and I think while it would have been very useful and interesting, it could create problems so probably best not to have those discussions here.

I have no issue discussing trail building in regards the technical aspects, so long as you don't discuss where and when you done it. My family have private land in the countryside and built trails in my teenage years but nothing overly complicated, you may have access to private land and permission. Places where it is essentially trespassing is where the issue lies, so unless you can stick to the technical without identifying places, or provide proof that the trail builder has permission, then it is a no go. Both of which seem difficult and a PITA

Now we seem to have landed on a place where even saying an unofficial trail names could be problematic - and I think that's a step too far.

I said I would talk to the other mods, using names so far does not seem to be an issue, it is only an issue when they are highlighted as being unofficial, unauthorised or without the permission of the land owner that it is an issue, and as such, maybe don't give directions to them.

CramCycle - you have to distinguish between what is unofficial, i.e not sanctioned by Coillte and illegal. You are saying illegal which certainly sounds great but means zilch at the end of the day. These trails are unofficial, or more accurately again, non-Coillte. That's it. There are Coillte and non Coillte trails. Nothing about legality. Let's not jazz this up beyond what it is.

My understanding is the land in the main part is owned by Coillte, they have given permission for the general public to use certain routes on their land. Their website says "cycle in selected sites", and other comments on their site indicate, trails they have mapped out and indicated only, if someone can find some commentary from them that suggests otherwise, that would be great. My memory of being around many Coillte woods, they have signs up, saying no mountainbiking.

xxyyzz wrote: »

Agreed, it's completely over the top.

I am trying to skirt a fine line between the allowed, the not allowed, as well as other potential issues. Unlike other discussion of allowed /not allowed activities on boards, which is generally for the sites protection, this one is more for the users protection.

bikedude wrote: »

They are ilegal, they are not autorized trails, it’s not over the top not to discuss the trails in a public forum, they are there now because of lots of work from other people to put the trail in place, and mantain it.

The main issue here is advertising it to people who have put nothing in, nothing wrong with that on boards, more of a moral quandry

All it takes is someone to try one of the trails have a fall and decide to bring someone to court, and all the years of work to add the trails and the political work are gone.

I don't think they would have a leg to stand on, unless someone told them where the trails were and that they were allowed.

steamsey wrote: »

They are unofficial trails. There is nothing illegal about them. We have to use the right language because 1) they are not illegal so why say they are and 2) by calling them illegal you are admitting you openly know you are breaking a (yet undefined) law every time you ride them or tell someone about them. So even if it's just for your own sake - be careful with saying illegal.

Well my understanding is that Coillte allow mountain biking on their designated trails, and not elsewhere, I could be wrong, if someone could add some clarity, it would be welcome. I am not looking for opinions, actual clarity in the form of a statement from Coillte is what I would be looking for.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/si/151/made/en/print

ianobrien

To be fair to Coilte, there is a piece of Coillte forest reasonably close to me and heard there were trails in the forest. I cycled down one day and happened to encounter the Forester and a few locals (going for an evening stroll) at the forest gate. The forest gate had a sign that said "no cycling".

From talking, it seems there was some trails. People were not too bothered if they stuck to the path/trails. Naturally some people took the pi$$ and tore through an area that had young saplings planted, breaking quite a few. The result was an irate forester and locals.

Naturally I did what any other reasonable person would do. I locked the bike and decided to walk the forest. The trails looked quite nice and fast, but now are out of use thanks so some idiots. As I was asked not to cycle on them, I obviously didnt and won't be cycling them and won't be saying where it is.


Just an alternative view on the effect of unofficial trails on Coillte lands and silly users.

CramCycle

My understanding is this is why Coillte came down so heavy on unofficial trails back in the late noughties, while most were grand, some muppets went and ruined ground on them, and presumably cost them money.

Wanderer78

CramCycle wrote:

My understanding is this is why Coillte came down so heavy on unofficial trails back in the late noughties, while most were grand, some muppets went and ruined ground on them, and presumably cost them money.

It's understandable why landowners do not want any cycling on their land, for various different reasons, it is their product afterall, and they've invested time and money into it, respect is the key

CramCycle

Wanderer78 wrote: »

It's understandable why landowners do not want any cycling on their land, for various different reasons, it is their product afterall, and they've invested time and money into it, respect is the key

Well that was my understanding, they were happy to ignore a problem that didn't exist and then some people started ploughing through freshly planted saplings and ruined a fair few. Coillte then had it written into legal docs when the managers realised the cost. I rode around my farm and others, so long as we weren't ripping up land, no one gave a sh1t, we could rip up the parts that were not growing grass without issue as it made no difference. Also used to ride in a quarry which was great craic till I proved to a friend a downhill bit was not viable by riding it after we argued for ages. Pleased to say I was right and unable to walk for a few days after.

prunudo

Spent a couple of hours going around Djouce yesterday, still finding my way around and trying to tie the different trails together and where some of them start. So many options. But there's a good mix of trails and climbing. Need to man up on a couple of the drops though, I know momentum is your friend but find myself chickening out at the last minute.

Big Nasty

Spent the morning in The GAP. Blues are far more grippy than they were in the summer. Reds & Blacks riding well but starting to get a touch more slippery. Good spin out!

steamsey

Big Nasty wrote: »

Spent the morning in The GAP. Blues are far more grippy than they were in the summer. Reds & Blacks riding well but starting to get a touch more slippery. Good spin out!

Nice - I could do with a day at a bike park. Was going to head to the GAP but ended up messing around Ticknock instead. Everything riding well up there. New bottom is bedding in. Pretty busy up there today.

ianobrien

It was a little bit muddy today in places........



The bike was clean before I started. It was about 30km of a spin with some mates.

Also, I'm not saying where.....

Big Nasty

Anyone up Ticknock this evening? Any trees down?

steamsey

Haven't been up yet but I bet there are trees down around Euroservices. Hopefully get up over next day or two. Time to dig out the winter lights.

prunudo

A shot from Ballinastoe earlier. Shame there isn't any easier way to upload photos from your mobile.

bogmanfan

Trails were absolutely mint in Ticknock this evening. Bike didn't even need to be washed after. Big contrast to Carrick yesterday. Slippy slidey fun times but bike and me were covered in mud after.

Big Nasty

Did Ticknock & The GAP today.

All riding good.

Tenzor07

jvan wrote: »

A shot from Ballinastoe earlier. Shame there isn't any easier way to upload photos from your mobile.

Another Coillte factory site, now looking like after a nuke went off.... Should be fun in the wind/rain with no trees there anymore..

Lemming

Went to the recently opened (i.e. within the last year) Leeds urban bike park earlier today, technically now being yesterday (Sunday). It's really impressive what Leeds Council, British cycling, and Sports England have managed to co-fund & set up from what I saw going on around me. Lots of families, lots of kids. The park itself is "urban"in that it's in a city and that's about where the urban starts and ends. Place has a lot crammed into it, and I certainly didn't get to find all of it to ride; went looking for some black lines I'd seen youtube videos of and couldn't find as they're buried around the back of the park XC "loop" somewhere. Pump track, bmx track, and a rather long and impressive jump line/track, with a mix of green, blue, and red trail loops in between. Off to one side (half?) is the newly opened "XC" loop; in so much as XC loops have long, fast stretches of jump lines in them. Most of the park is completely man-made, so if you're looking for technical, rooty stuff, you'll need to go elsewhere from what I saw with the disclaimer that I didn't see everything. But the place has so, so many options & opportunities to get airborne that it's just ridiculous.

All free, unless you're renting a bike or visiting the on-site cafe.

prunudo

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Another Coillte factory site, now looking like after a nuke went off.... Should be fun in the wind/rain with no trees there anymore..

Yeah, shame to see, be nice if they started building bike trails in forests that lasted longer than 40 years. But then, Coillte are in the buisness of making money from felling trees not building recreational facilities.

Hurrache

Have they kept the Ticknock trail in reasonable condition after the felling in that area?

steamsey

Yeah the felling was all on private land on the side of the hill facing Dun Laoghaire / Killiney so official Ticknock trails not affected. In fact, around the the same time as the felling, they did new works on the existing trails (subject of debate whether this is an improvement or not) and have now added a new trail that joins Metro to the Biking.ie hut (that new final section to the hut got a name yet??).

So short answer is yes - Ticknock offical trails are fine

The unofficial trails did not fare so good and I'd say we lost about 2/3 really nice trails - hopefully not forever though! Ticknock still a great place to ride, just needs a bit of work, this winter should be telling if the old trails are resurrected or new ones emerge.

Hurrache

The final bit to the hut is called "Home Run", if that's the section you're talking about. edit; nope, I'm talking about Ballinastoe.

I was in a place in the midlands during the summer where I'd go running every time I was staying there. I came across a few unoffical MTB trails when I'd be running off road and last time I was there this year there was some tree felling. The felled trees were stacked across the MTB trails more or less obliterating them.

Tenzor07

jvan wrote: »

Coillte are in the buisness of making money from felling trees not building recreational facilities.

Which is an outdated and misguided policy that they have when attracting tourists should be the main aim and recreational users with facilities for them. Though I guess they have to fight local residents also who will object to any facilities being built to accommodate recreation.

Tenzor07

Hurrache wrote: »

The felled trees were stacked across the MTB trails more or less obliterating them.

It's also Coillte policy to remove any unofficial trails from there forests, the main attitude is "Well we built you some trails, now be happy with your lot"

It's a bit like councils building cycle paths, and then it being made illegal to cycle on the road, even if the road is better and more direct etc.

xxyyzz

They're a semi-state body so there is unfortunately no incentive for them to go and do anything innovative and groundbreaking to make more profit. Maintaining the status quo is what they are all about and selling cheap sh*tty pine that's good for nothing more than fence posts and pallets. Sadly the state has entrusted them to be responsible for outdoor recreation on forest land but given them zero incentive to get off their collective holes to do anything about it. The new trail centre in the Slieve Blooms is a result of 10 years of lobbying from local businesses and politicians.

A number of years ago they created an offroad cycling strategy document where they laid out a plan to create a number of national and regional trail centres and work with clubs to show how they can create trails on Coillte land that would be acceptable to them. They then proceeded to use that document as a stick to beat down any potential projects that were suggested to them.

steamsey

Tenzor07 wrote: »

It's also Coillte policy to remove any unofficial trails from there forests, the main attitude is "Well we built you some trails, now be happy with your lot"

It's a bit like councils building cycle paths, and then it being made illegal to cycle on the road, even if the road is better and more direct etc.

That might be their policy, but thankfully they are not implementing it. Ticknock, Djouce & Ballinastoe being examples of it not being implemented.

They could be a lot worse in relation to MTB, and other outdoor pursuits

Tenzor07

xxyyzz wrote: »

Sadly the state has entrusted them to be responsible for outdoor recreation on forest land but given them zero incentive to get off their collective holes to do anything about it.

A number of years ago they created an offroad cycling strategy document

Yea there needs to be a separation from growing and harvesting pine into a greater use, the demand for facilities and outdoor recreation definitely exceeds the small profits they can make selling tress for paper mache.

That was a complete joke from what I recall also, was more like a Coillte Dictat.

Tenzor07

steamsey wrote: »

That might be their policy, but thankfully they are not implementing it. Ticknock, Djouce & Ballinastoe being examples of it not being implemented.

Are you sure about that?

Ticknock used to have a fine network of unofficial trails, the majority of which are now destroyed by felling and being blocked off during the construction of the official trails.

Djouce, for the most part remains intact, I reckon that the current crop of MTB'ers are doing a good enough job of cutting Strava lines all over the original trails as it is.

Ballinastoe is currently going through harvesting so any trails in that area will be gone. Not that there was a massive network of trails after the trail center was constructed anyways.

steamsey

I'd say that if their policy is to remove unofficial trails, then they are doing an awful job!

The felling on Ticknock this year that ruined a lot of the old trails was on private land as we all know

I've not seen Coillte ruin too many of the Ticknock trails at all - a few casualties maybe but nothing that looks like a policy being implemented

Tenzor07

steamsey wrote: »

I'd say that if their policy is to remove unofficial trails, then they are doing an awful job!
The felling on Ticknock this year that ruined a lot of the old trails was on private land as we all know
I've not seen Coillte ruin too many of the Ticknock trails at all - a few casualties maybe but nothing that looks like a policy being implemented

There's not much left really, apart from the few used in the Enduro races, which are now almost unrideable due to overuse and the weather..

Along the side of the lower metro they blocked up unofficial trails.

steamsey

Was up Ticknock today earlier in the cracking weather. Did Tom's climb and the Euroservices lads were out working on it - as Tenzor had said. They were digging a trench to the right of the trail for water run off. Euroservices was fine - one or two bits filled in but nothing that would catch you out - they've obviously been working on it too but not much. Then went up and did Euroskeptic, then back up to it and jumped off it onto Bacon n Cabbage which was pretty slippery - nearly came off. Is not in bad nick but will need a break over the winter.

Then did lower Metro which is continuing to bed in nicely and then over to Dream Track which is riding really well and is clearly being well looked after so cheers to whoever is looking after it! Eyed up the gap jump as usual and pedalled on! Then was messing around right at the bottom of the trail and went back to do a tiny little jump which I usually overshoot so this time I was too slow, rear wheel landed square on the far lip, and I destroyed my rim. DING. €150 for a crappy little jump and no bike for a while.....might dig out the old XC bike for the weekend.

ianobrien

Anyway, managed to get a few hours over the weekend to head to the Ballyhoura's. I did the Brown loop followed by the Green (sucker for punishment or I didn't think of the cut on the White until I was almost finished the Brown).

Any sheltered north facing slope still had frost on the ground. Any open ground was a little bit wet from the frost (melted or not). Anything under trees was generally dry. Its much smoother Inn the way down and most of the horrid stuff on the "unnecessarily rocky road" is gone under a new surface. The big loose stones to the log wasn't too bad even. It had been months since I was there last.

As the surface has improved so much, I'm thinking a night spin up there is next. Yes I'm a bit soft when it comes to the really gnarly stuff.....

Wanderer78

ianobrien wrote:

As the surface has improved so much, I'm thinking a night spin up there is next. Yes I'm a bit soft when it comes to the really gnarly stuff.....

We all start somewhere, must take a trip there soon, it's been a couple of year's

bogmanfan

Was down in Kilkenny for the weekend and went to Knockdrinna Woods near Knocktopher. I'd only been there once before, but any of the trails I did before have been almost totally destroyed by felling. Only a few sections intact. Shame as it was a nice little spot.

Top Dog

ianobrien wrote: »

Anyway, managed to get a few hours over the weekend to head to the Ballyhoura's. I did the Brown loop followed by the Green (sucker for punishment or I didn't think of the cut on the White until I was almost finished the Brown).

Try the Purple next time. Its the Brown + Tech 1 & 2, plus a couple of small bits of White. About 27km all-in.

ianobrien

ianobrien wrote: »

Anyway, managed to get a few hours over the weekend to head to the Ballyhoura's. I did the Brown loop followed by the Green (sucker for punishment or I didn't think of the cut on the White until I was almost finished the Brown).

Any sheltered north facing slope still had frost on the ground. Any open ground was a little bit wet from the frost (melted or not). Anything under trees was generally dry. Its much smoother Inn the way down and most of the horrid stuff on the "unnecessarily rocky road" is gone under a new surface. The big loose stones to the log wasn't too bad even. It had been months since I was there last.

As the surface has improved so much, I'm thinking a night spin up there is next. Yes I'm a bit soft when it comes to the really gnarly stuff.....

What a difference a week makes. I did the Brown again today. The amount of leaf litter was massive compared to last week. Then to top of off, the leaf litter was wet making it quare slippy when the wet leaves were on rocks (and usually in the braking zone. Its mainly on the areas closest to the car park. The areas that were dry under the trees last week were slightly wet today but mainly had plenty of grip. Grip was a bit variable on the wet rocks......

Anyway, enjoyed myself, even if I got a few wobbles on the way down. I didn't come off, so it was a good day.

ianobrien

Top Dog wrote: »

Try the Purple next time. Its the Brown + Tech 1 & 2, plus a couple of small bits of White. About 27km all-in.

I'm thinking of that for next weekend I'll report back........

Top Dog

ianobrien wrote: »

I'm thinking of that for next weekend I'll report back........

Did it yesterday with a friend. Both hired the full suspension Trek electric bikes (hadn't been out for 2 weeks, and fighting a head-cold so knew I wouldn't have been able for the climbing). Very wet in a lot of places, but great fun. Being a dumbass I was checking the weather so never thought what way the ground might be even if its wasn't raining so got pretty wet & muddy. Tech loops had a blanket of pine needles making navigation a little more difficult in spots as they don't seem to be used that often, and plenty of leaves everywhere, but nothing too hairy.