Diesel bans on the way?

munchkin_utd

Strange that nobody has mentioned it here (obviously if it was in the UK it'd be posted in 5 minutes as if it actually happened in Ireland) but the momentum against diesels is gathering pace at an almighty rate in diesel loving Germany, with an astounding decision yesterday by a court for a blanket ban of all but the newest diesel cars in Frankfurt to protect the health of citizens (not too dissimilar to the reasoning behind the smoking ban being seen as being necessary).

Up to now, Euro 3 diesels and lower were banned from most cities, but that'd be the like of a ford focus from 2000 or older, so the effects on car owners were somewhat limited especially with scrappage deals .

With the new ruling, and theres more cities to follow and possibly a national ruling in the supreme court, Euro 4 is to be banned in the coming spring and unbelievably also Euro 5 in the Autumn, meaning only Euro 6 approved vehicles can drive in Frankfurt and likely other cities to follow in the next weeks with more pending rulings that will be swayed by this precedent .

Euro 6, in Ford Focus terms, is only available since 2014, Golfs from the year before, so theres a LOT of people with 2014 and barely older cars getting banned off the road.

In Germany nobody believed this would happen, the politicians have been flashing plans for bike lanes and whatnot in the courts and were confident that vague promises for some developments sometime in the next decade or 2 were sufficient to placate the courts, and now they really have been caught out and its panic stations to try and find a solution!

Whats the chances of this also happening in Ireland any time soon in towns and cities, are there any cases pending ?

munchkin_utd

munchkin_utd wrote: »

............

With the new ruling, and theres more cities to follow and possibly a national ruling in the supreme court, Euro 4 is to be banned in the coming spring and unbelievably also Euro 5 in the Autumn, meaning only Euro 6 approved vehicles can drive in Frankfurt and likely other cities to follow in the next weeks with more pending rulings that will be swayed by this precedent .

Euro 6, in Ford Focus terms, is only available since 2014, Golfs from the year before.............

Whats the chances of this also happening in Ireland any time soon in towns and cities, are there any cases pending ?

Close to zero IMO, we haven't had Euro 3 diesels and lower banned anywhere as yet

Alkers

Is it just cars or trucks, vans and lorries also? We're so far behind on this front and there's so many diesel owners who bought due to government incentives, the uproar would be huge!

The ban is from the city centres btw.........it's not actually forcing folk to bin their cars as such...........

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-frankfurt/german-court-says-frankfurt-must-ban-older-diesel-cars-idUSKCN1LL2GC

".......Frankfurt, Germany’s financial center, must ban highly-polluting, older diesel vehicles from the city center........"

"...The court also ordered other measures to cut pollution in Frankfurt such as more electric buses, higher parking fees and more park-and-ride places on the outskirts of the city"

porsche boy

As usual, we'll wait to see what UK does and copy it poorly

Trasna1

First they came for diesel, and I did not speak out—because I did not drive a diesel.

Then they came for petrol, and I did not speak out— because I did not drive petrol.

Then they came for the hybrid, and I did not speak out—because I did not drive a hybrid.

Then they came for electric—and there was no one left to speak for me.


There is a push to take private transport out of cities, as car free cities make better places to live. I imagine the idea of driving any car, no matter what it's power train will be prohibited in many cities in 15-20 years time.

munchkin_utd

Simona1986 wrote: »

Is it just cars or trucks, vans and lorries also? We're so far behind on this front and there's so many diesel owners who bought due to government incentives, the uproar would be huge!

in Frankfurt, everything has to be euro 6, even 325 city busses need to be retrofitted with Euro6 filters to allow them to continue to be used .

Del2005

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Strange that nobody has mentioned it here (obviously if it was in the UK it'd be posted in 5 minutes as if it actually happened in Ireland) but the momentum against diesels is gathering pace at an almighty rate in diesel loving Germany, with an astounding decision yesterday by a court for a blanket ban of all but the newest diesel cars in Frankfurt to protect the health of citizens (not too dissimilar to the reasoning behind the smoking ban being seen as being necessary).

Up to now, Euro 3 diesels and lower were banned from most cities, but that'd be the like of a ford focus from 2000 or older, so the effects on car owners were somewhat limited especially with scrappage deals .

With the new ruling, and theres more cities to follow and possibly a national ruling in the supreme court, Euro 4 is to be banned in the coming spring and unbelievably also Euro 5 in the Autumn, meaning only Euro 6 approved vehicles can drive in Frankfurt and likely other cities to follow in the next weeks with more pending rulings that will be swayed by this precedent .

Euro 6, in Ford Focus terms, is only available since 2014, Golfs from the year before, so theres a LOT of people with 2014 and barely older cars getting banned off the road.

In Germany nobody believed this would happen, the politicians have been flashing plans for bike lanes and whatnot in the courts and were confident that vague promises for some developments sometime in the next decade or 2 were sufficient to placate the courts, and now they really have been caught out and its panic stations to try and find a solution!

Whats the chances of this also happening in Ireland any time soon in towns and cities, are there any cases pending ?

The massive fields of unsold diesel cars would imply that people knew that it was coming. Anyone with an iota of knowledge knew that diesel should never have been pushed as much as it was for being environmental friendly, all it does is possibly save a few polar bears in a few decades by killing thousands of people now. There's still a place for diesels but not in our towns and cities.

biko

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Strange that nobody has mentioned it here

Diesel ban has been mentioned in many threads
www.google.ie/search?q=diesel+ban+site:boards.ie

Cee-Jay-Cee

porsche boy wrote: »

As usual, we'll wait to see what UK does and copy it poorly

...10 to 15 years later.

_Brian

Congestion charges in major cities would be a great place to start.

So much tax money goes into Luas, trains, dart, city bus, cycle to work. Let’s force people out of their cars to use them.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

The massive fields of unsold diesel cars would imply that people knew that it was coming. Anyone with an iota of knowledge knew that diesel should never have been pushed as much as it was for being environmental friendly, all it does is possibly save a few polar bears in a few decades by killing thousands of people now. There's still a place for diesels but not in our towns and cities.

The thing is that diesel cars were never encouraged in Germany. People bought them even though they were more expensive than petrol equivalent due to their fuel economy which could provide good savings for someone travelling regularly on autobahn.

Ban for diesels in cities (in form of umweltzones) is not a new thing and was extended regularly firstly banning oldest diesels with no euro rating and euro1 then euro2 and later euro3. So now upcoming ban for euro3 and euro5 seems like natural follow up, which everyone were expecting anyway.

People will still use older diesels for travelling on autobahn and outside cities.

dr.fuzzenstein

CiniO wrote: »

The thing is that diesel cars were never encouraged in Germany. People bought them even though they were more expensive than petrol equivalent due to their fuel economy which could provide good savings for someone travelling regularly on autobahn.

Ban for diesels in cities (in form of umweltzones) is not a new thing and was extended regularly firstly banning oldest diesels with no euro rating and euro1 then euro2 and later euro3. So now upcoming ban for euro3 and euro5 seems like natural follow up, which everyone were expecting anyway.

People will still use older diesels for travelling on autobahn and outside cities.

Absolutely. I have a Euro 4 diesel with DPF, which is used for my commute.
Diesel bans will affect high-profile inner city locations in the major cities, because it looks good and is giving the impression that "something" is being done.
Locations I have been to about 5 times in my life with a car.
Ironically, if all but the very latest and cleanest diesels are banned, I can buy a mid 90's BMW or Merc for buttons, they all have cat, they all have a green Plakette, so they're all allowed into the cities.
The fact that they may only be Euro 3, the cat may be a bit knackered and the exhaust leaky, the engine a bit worn at 500000km out and burning oil, a tad smoky and smelly is completely irrelevant in this context. They are "better" than a brand new Euro 5 (or even 6) diesel and therefore AOK in the city, so who am I to argue.
I certainly won't be splashing out more than 500 on my "green" city car.


But I have to agree with a previous poster. This could be the start to ban ALL cars (or at least all ICE) from city centers and make it accessible via public transport only.
In the long run, this is the only logical solution and I would be totally behind this.

coolbeans

So much fake news here. It's a Frankfurt ban not a Germany wide or motorway ban. We'll only realise the benefits once they're dropped in large urban areas. Diesels are no good for the city / town due to the toxicity indicators. Keep them in the country and the motorway networks and interurban routes and encourage hybrid/battery and cycling elsewhere. Horses for courses like.

elperello

Trasna1 wrote: »

First they came for diesel, and I did not speak out—because I did not drive a diesel.

Then they came for petrol, and I did not speak out— because I did not drive petrol.

Then they came for the hybrid, and I did not speak out—because I did not drive a hybrid.

Then they came for electric—and there was no one left to speak for me.


There is a push to take private transport out of cities, as car free cities make better places to live. I imagine the idea of driving any car, no matter what it's power train will be prohibited in many cities in 15-20 years time.

Godwin does not own a car.

Interslice

They will probably ban the sale of new diesel vehicles at some stage in the future. Whenever theres enough data to prove that its harm to public health outweighs the positives. The sooner the better. Diesel had its best days in the 90's for me. Diesel hybrid for licenced commercial van and trucks should be the height of it in 10 years.

moonship

Before banning diesels from Dublin city i propose to introduce ban to illegal waste burning by Travelling community in north dublin happening most nights all year around and also illegal burning of waste in Rathcoole which were going on for 3 months this year every night. Not to mention accidental fire in one of the recycling centres.

Thats the source of pollution not diesels.

grogi

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Strange that nobody has mentioned it here (obviously if it was in the UK it'd be posted in 5 minutes as if it actually happened in Ireland) but the momentum against diesels is gathering pace at an almighty rate in diesel loving Germany, with an astounding decision yesterday by a court for a blanket ban of all but the newest diesel cars in Frankfurt to protect the health of citizens (not too dissimilar to the reasoning behind the smoking ban being seen as being necessary).

Up to now, Euro 3 diesels and lower were banned from most cities, but that'd be the like of a ford focus from 2000 or older, so the effects on car owners were somewhat limited especially with scrappage deals .

With the new ruling, and theres more cities to follow and possibly a national ruling in the supreme court, Euro 4 is to be banned in the coming spring and unbelievably also Euro 5 in the Autumn, meaning only Euro 6 approved vehicles can drive in Frankfurt and likely other cities to follow in the next weeks with more pending rulings that will be swayed by this precedent .

Euro 6, in Ford Focus terms, is only available since 2014, Golfs from the year before, so theres a LOT of people with 2014 and barely older cars getting banned off the road.

In Germany nobody believed this would happen, the politicians have been flashing plans for bike lanes and whatnot in the courts and were confident that vague promises for some developments sometime in the next decade or 2 were sufficient to placate the courts, and now they really have been caught out and its panic stations to try and find a solution!

Whats the chances of this also happening in Ireland any time soon in towns and cities, are there any cases pending ?

Are they banning euro 4 diesels, or all euro 4 cars?!

sunnysoutheast

They have already started banning cars in French cities dependent on the emissions.

You have to get a windscreen sticker (which only costs about a fiver) although I think I was the only Irish car I saw with one this summer.

CJhaughey

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

They have already started banning cars in French cities dependent on the emissions.

You have to get a windscreen sticker (which only costs about a fiver) although I think I was the only Irish car I saw with one this summer.

The French pay no heed to the Crit-air plan as far as I can see, very very few vehicles in France have the disc and I did 2.5k there this year.

dr.fuzzenstein

grogi wrote: »

Are they banning euro 4 diesels, or all euro 4 cars?!

Only diesels. And it's up to 5, and maybe even some early Euro 6 models. Any petrol car with a green Plakette is still good.

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=264961928&damageUnrepaired=NO_DAMAGE_UNREPAIRED&fuels=PETROL&isSearchRequest=true&maxPrice=1000&pageNumber=1&scopeId=C&usage=USED&steered=1&searchId=b2b4ccbf-1d15-721d-f254-95a6bd8f4fac

So, 1998, petrol, probably Euro 3, but it has that all important green sticker.
Drinks about 10 liters, CO2 is 212 gram, but for city driving this is as green as Kermit the Frog.
In fact any petrol with a 3-way cat will get this sticker, so a mid 80's Audi will also be allowed.
But dare you not drive in there with your brand new diesel, Euro 5 (or even early 6), cat, DPF, 4.5 liters/100km, because that is a baby-killer!

But buy any old, sub €500 petrol banger, and you're good.

dr.fuzzenstein

Ah, what was I saying?

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=254023391&damageUnrepaired=NO_DAMAGE_UNREPAIRED&fuels=PETROL&isSearchRequest=true&maxFirstRegistrationDate=1990&pageNumber=1&scopeId=C&usage=USED&fnai=prev&steered=1&searchId=cab54ebf-3e0d-b96c-e8da-8ad6e5028b47

Euro 1!! Green Plakette, good to go!
So leave your 2017 diesel at home and drive this into the city center.

edit:
This I have to look into further. It seems it has changed recently and now a petrol would have to be Euro 4 to get a green Plakette, but it is a bit unlcear to me if an older car that was previously issued the green Plakette would still be allowed into the city.

beauf

_Brian wrote: »

Congestion charges in major cities would be a great place to start.

So much tax money goes into Luas, trains, dart, city bus, cycle to work. Let’s force people out of their cars to use them.

Public transport especially rail is already overcrowded at peak. So that's not going to be very practical.

Cycling is the only thing that has a lot of spare capacity.

Zubeneschamali

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

The fact that they may only be Euro 3, the cat may be a bit knackered and the exhaust leaky, the engine a bit worn at 500000km out and burning oil, a tad smoky and smelly is completely irrelevant in this context. They are "better" than a brand new Euro 5 (or even 6) diesel and therefore AOK in the city, so who am I to argue.

Yes, that's how filthy diesel is.

I remember many years ago reading that the exhaust from a cat-equipped petrol Saab was cleaner than the intake air in Los Angeles - drive your car through the city and clean the air as you go!

Of course, you are putting out CO2 which is bad, but not in amounts that are bad for people in the city (until it is under the sea).

ION08

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I remember many years ago reading that the exhaust from a cat-equipped petrol Saab was cleaner than the intake air in Los Angeles - drive your car through the city and clean the air as you go!.

Jeremy Clarkson said that about Porsche too , would take it with a pinch of salt

Sounds a bit green party dieselesque really, "cleaner" in some ways no doubt.

trik

Ireland won't ban diesels, just tax them to oblivion instead.

MayoSalmon

trik wrote: »

Ireland won't ban diesels, just tax them to oblivion instead.

Exactly

firstlight

Already doing the taxing to oblivion on below 08s

trik

firstlight wrote: »

Already doing the taxing to oblivion on below 08s

I think that every incoming Minister of Finance must swear an oath "Tax everything that moves".

firstlight

trik wrote: »

I think that every incoming Minister of Finance must swear an oath "Tax everything that moves".

I'd say so
More to tax people who can't afford newer cars
Easy targets
If you can't afford anything newer than 08 how can you afford newer technology cars
Good luck with that
Not many fancy electric vehicles in my area

TheBoyConor

I'd love to know how this would be enforced. Are there going to be exhaust pipe police out on the beat?

josip

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

They have already started banning cars in French cities dependent on the emissions.

You have to get a windscreen sticker (which only costs about a fiver) although I think I was the only Irish car I saw with one this summer.

We had ours too sunny.
But we never went into any city centres by car so we never had to display it.

grogi

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

edit:
This I have to look into further. It seems it has changed recently and now a petrol would have to be Euro 4 to get a green Plakette, but it is a bit unlcear to me if an older car that was previously issued the green Plakette would still be allowed into the city.

Me thinks it was always like that. In 2007 my Euro2 petrol was only yellow...

TheBoyConor

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I'd love to know how this would be enforced. Are there going to be exhaust pipe police out on the beat?

Traffic wardens etc could do it

MayoSalmon

trik wrote:

I think that every incoming Minister of Finance must swear an oath "Tax everything that moves".

Of course why wouldn't they. They need money to spend as government in of itself produces nothing. It can only tax and spend or just spend and put the debt onto its citizens. The Irish seem completely fine with their wages being taken hand over fist in the hope the government will provide said services with their money. History tells us that government do a piss poor job in that regard.

sunnysoutheast

CJhaughey wrote: »

The French pay no heed to the Crit-air plan as far as I can see, very very few vehicles in France have the disc and I did 2.5k there this year.

We were in the Loire and a few French cars had it. By no means all.

There's actually more restricted zones than I thought there was having just looked! Not sure this will go the way of the breathalyser fiasco!

CJhaughey

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

We were in the Loire and a few French cars had it. By no means all.

There's actually more restricted zones than I thought there was having just looked! Not sure this will go the way of the breathalyser fiasco!

I went through at least 5 Crit air zones, including Strasbourg city centre, I had the sticker but didn't fix it to the windscreen and I saw no one checking them at any point.

Sabre Man

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Not sure this will go the way of the breathalyser fiasco!

What's the breathalyser fiasco?

sunnysoutheast

Sabre Man wrote: »

What's the breathalyser fiasco?

Do you not remember a few years ago the law changed in France so that you needed a breathalyzer and a spare in the car? I've still got a couple but they are long out of date now.

I think it's now in a weird limbo where enforcement of the law has been postponed indefinitely due to problems with supply. I think someone in govt had links to a supplier or something.

Proposed fine was only €11!

https://www.drive-france.com/faqs/france-breathalyzer-law/

Also, I stuck my crit-air sticker in the wrong place, d'oh!

Sabre Man

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Do you not remember a few years ago the law changed in France so that you needed a breathalyzer and a spare in the car? I've still got a couple but they are long out of date now.

I think it's now in a weird limbo where enforcement of the law has been postponed indefinitely due to problems with supply. I think someone in govt had links to a supplier or something.

Proposed fine was only €11!

https://www.drive-france.com/faqs/france-breathalyzer-law/

I heard about the law but not what happened afterwards. Thanks for the update.

KevinCavan

Has anybody here bought a brand new diesel? Are they worried about it falling in value, due to Diesel engines becoming uncool with tree huggers?

vectra

KevinCavan wrote: »

Has anybody here bought a brand new diesel? Are they worried about it falling in value, due to Diesel engines becoming uncool with tree huggers?

I bought one last year.
I will buy another next year,
Can you see Paddy down the road suddenly becoming a tree hugger?

_Brian

I expect to see diesels on the road as mainstream cars for another 10 years probably more.

The focus should be to get people who don’t need a diesel out of them, most were tricked into buying them by cheap tax and talk of cheap economic motoring but it doesn’t work for low mileage drivers.

Outside major urban areas there is still a great need for diesel vehicles, not every vehicle but a great number.

A measure that tackles diesel and indeed combustion engines within urban areas should be the immediate focus as alternatives are available.

In time when technology advances diesels in rural areas will become less attractive.

Zubeneschamali

KevinCavan wrote: »

Has anybody here bought a brand new diesel? Are they worried about it falling in value, due to Diesel engines becoming uncool with tree huggers?

Yes, a 172 Octavia VRs.


In 10 years time, it'll be worth nothing because I'll put 400,000 km on it, so I don't care what the resale hit is from green regs.



Hopefully there will be real electric cars on sale in 10 years time, and I won't have to buy another.

dr.fuzzenstein

What will be interesting is what will happen to the booming SUV market. All those giant senseless boxes were diesel.
Either all these will have the 1 liter, 3 cylinder, 17 turbo engine that puts out 250 hp which will definitely have no drawbacks whatsoever, or they will have to go US style with a 4 liter V8 and that is not going to happen.
So maybe all cars in the future will have these miserable 3 cylinder engines?

dr.fuzzenstein

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What will be interesting is what will happen to the booming SUV market. All those giant senseless boxes were diesel.
Either all these will have the 1 liter, 3 cylinder, 17 turbo engine that puts out 250 hp which will definitely have no drawbacks whatsoever, or they will have to go US style with a 4 liter V8 and that is not going to happen.
So maybe all cars in the future will have these miserable 3 cylinder engines?

Plug in hybrid tech is improving at a decent rate.

Mitsubishi PHEV Outlander aren't 1 liter, 3 cylinder, 17 turbo engine or US style with a 4 liter V8 iirc

There really isn't much of a problem for the next 10/20 years.
Even at €2/litre and 30 mpg 10,000 miles can be done for €3000, that's €60/week

Loads and loads of Euro 6 approved vehicles shall be pottering about for decades for those of us not wanting to buy a new whatever is in vogue.

Shefwedfan

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

What will be interesting is what will happen to the booming SUV market. All those giant senseless boxes were diesel.
Either all these will have the 1 liter, 3 cylinder, 17 turbo engine that puts out 250 hp which will definitely have no drawbacks whatsoever, or they will have to go US style with a 4 liter V8 and that is not going to happen.
So maybe all cars in the future will have these miserable 3 cylinder engines?

The Crossover market is booming. The SUV market is still the same. So you have


Kia Niro PHEV(currently available)
Kia Niro BEV(coming at end of year)
Hyundai Kona(order in next month)
Nissan Qashqai Hybrid(scheduled)
Nissan Qashqai BEV(out next year)
VW Crozz(2020)
Ford SMAX Hybrid(2019)
Toyota Rav4 Hybrid New model(2019)
Toyota C-HR Hybrid(available now)
Lexus Crossover, dont know models but available now





They are just a few....the market will be full of Crossover hybrids or BEV come 2020

dr.fuzzenstein

Thanks. Is there a link to a glossary somehwere? I don't know what a tracker mortgage BEV is.

edit:
Got it. Bayrischer Eissport Verband. (ok, I know now it's a battery electric vehicle)

Shefwedfan

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Thanks. Is there a link to a glossary somehwere? I don't know what a tracker mortgage BEV is.

edit:
Got it. Bayrischer Eissport Verband. (ok, I know now it's a battery electric vehicle)

Battery Electric Vehicle......


I just hate it when people call them EV :P

Henry Ford III

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Battery Electric Vehicle......


I just hate it when people call them EV :P

Noted

p.s. Maybe your strong and oft expressed opposition to diesel cars should be refocused elsewhere? https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/104582/exclusive-uk-refrigerated-truck-emissions-equal-to-18-million-cars