EV import thread

DrPhilG

I'm starting this specifically for my current position, but no reason it can't be a resource for similar questions and the inevitable new questions that arise post-Brexit.

As most of you know, I'm considering buying and importing a new car from the North. Either Kona or Niro 64kWh. I'm not going to just keep it on UK plates for 6 months either before anyone suggests it!

My 3 hurdles are the grant, VAT and VRT.

VRT is straightforward. I'll probably have about a €5.6k vrt bill, minus the €5k allowance.

For the VAT, I have 2 options. If I claim the EV grant in the UK, I would have to register the car there and pay the VAT. However once I bring it to Ireland and pay the Irish VAT, I can take the receipt back to the dealer in the North and they will refund the UK VAT.

However if I buy it unregistered, the dealer will sell it to me ex-VAT, so I can just pay the Irish VAT on arrival and registration. However that means I can't claim the grant in the UK, so the question is whether I as a private individual can claim the SEAI grant on an imported car. I know a dealer can. I've emailed the SEAI for clarification.

I have family in the UK do it's easy to register with them and then export.

So I have 2 questions.

1 - anyone know if I can claim the SEAI grant?

2 - how is the VAT calculated? Is it as simple as 20% of the value of the car in the UK, and 23% of the value of the car here?

_dof_

Isn't it the case that if your family buy and register the car in the north, they can sell it to you as a private sale and no VAT is due down here? I thought that the regulations for buying ex-VAT in the UK and paying the VAT here (or buying including VAT in the UK and then reclaiming it) are only for buying a car from the motor trade.

DrPhilG

_dof_ wrote: »

Isn't it the case that if your family buy and register the car in the north, they can sell it to you as a private sale and no VAT is due down here? I thought that the regulations for buying ex-VAT in the UK and paying the VAT here (or buying including VAT in the UK and then reclaiming it) are only for buying a car from the motor trade.

Any car coming in that is less than 6 months old OR has less than 6k km on the clock is classed as new and liable for VAT. Doesn't matter where you bought it as far as I know.

DrPhilG

Well my first question is answered...

I can't claim the SEAI grant as a private buyer. It can only be claimed by a registered dealer.

So I would have to register in the North, pay the VAT, claim the grant and then pay the second amount of VAT and reclaim.

KCross

DrPhilG wrote: »

So I have 2 questions.

1 - anyone know if I can claim the SEAI grant?

2 - how is the VAT calculated? Is it as simple as 20% of the value of the car in the UK, and 23% of the value of the car here?

1 - I very much doubt it. The grant is administered via SEAI and approved car dealers only. So, unless you can get a northern dealer to register with the SEAI or get a southern dealer to do some kind of deal with the northern dealer to cross sell the car to them BEFORE its registered in the north so that it is still a new car in the south.

2 - I'd have thought.... Whatever your agreed price in the north is, say £32k, that would mean its £25600 ex vat. Convert £25600 to euro, at whatever the current FX is, and add on 23%.

biko

The dealer is the one to handle the grant, not you.
They will simply lower the price of the car.

https://www.seai.ie/grants/electric-vehicle-grants/grant-amounts/

When purchasing a vehicle the dealer will apply for the grant for you. The grant amount is deducted from the total price agreed for your new Electric Vehicle.

KCross

biko wrote: »

The dealer is the one to handle the grant, not you.
They will simply lower the price of the car.

https://www.seai.ie/grants/electric-vehicle-grants/grant-amounts/

Correct.
So, if he could get the UK dealer to sell the car unregistered to an Irish dealer before any grants are applied then the Irish dealer could in theory apply the Irish grant.

VAT would also be taken care of in that scenario as the UK dealer would sell ex Vat to the Irish dealer as they are both VAT registered companies and the Irish dealer would apply 23% to the sale to Phil.

The trick is getting two Hyundai dealers who are willing to process the paperwork and no doubt both will want their margin for the privilege so it might be an expensive transaction.

Soarer

Plus, you shouldn't be paying VAT twice.

You either pay it on registration up the North, get a refund for exportation, then pay it down here.
Or buy it new without the VAT up there, and pay everything down here.

You certainly shouldn't be paying VAT up there, then paying it down here, then looking for a refund up there.

ELM327

Could you not just follow the link given in the other thread and buy ex Vat in the UK?
Or does that preclude you from the UK grant and the Irish grant?

DrPhilG

ELM327 wrote: »

Could you not just follow the link given in the other thread and buy ex Vat in the UK?

According to the dealer I spoke to, in order to claim the UK grant it has to be registered and the VAT paid.

My understanding of the 411 form was that if I give it to the dealer, they can sell ex-vat even if the car is already registered and the grant applied. They disagree.

Soarer wrote: »

Plus, you shouldn't be paying VAT twice.

You either pay it on registration up the North, get a refund for exportation, then pay it down here.
Or buy it new without the VAT up there, and pay everything down here.

You certainly shouldn't be paying VAT up there, then paying it down here, then looking for a refund up there.

That was my thought, but it's the UK dealer who applies the VAT and they said that the only way they can sell it ex VAT is if its not registered.

So to get it ex VAT I don't get the grant, but if I get the grant I have to pay the VAT.

DrPhilG

KCross wrote: »

The trick is getting two Hyundai dealers who are willing to process the paperwork and no doubt both will want their margin for the privilege so it might be an expensive transaction.

It's a Kia dealer I'm talking to. The Kona would be coming directly from Hyundai UK so the local dealer wouldn't have much power to do anything.

stesaurus

I don't see an easy way around this. To do it correctly and all above board will mean paying the VAT twice and then relying on a reclaim of the UK VAT which could end up being very tricky.
I know you are against waiting 6 months to re-register it but honestly it is the best option imo.

KCross

Slightly off the wall suggestion but who knows.... How much do you like your UK relatives?!
Let them drive it for 6 months and then simply drive it across and put new plates on it... no VAT or grant issues and the VRT will be easy as its only a few hundred.

I know 6 months is a long time to have your relatives driving your shiny new car and how would insurance work etc..... but it might turn out to be your only viable option.... apart from walking away from the deal.


Ultimately you have to get the grant in the UK or in Ireland.... otherwise its a ridiculously expensive car.

Another thought.... would a Hyundai dealer in the north be willing to buy your car and register it as a demo and you buy it off them 5 months later and register it here once you hit the 6mth mark.... It would have the UK grant already applied and would be a normal UK import like you have already done before with the Leaf. It would just be a case of agreeing a price with the dealer up front on what you'd be paying in 5mths time.

KCross

DrPhilG wrote: »

According to the dealer I spoke to, in order to claim the UK grant it has to be registered and the VAT paid.

It makes perfect sense that it has to be registered using a UK address to get the UK grant. It couldn't be any other way, otherwise you would have the UK government being screwed to grant aid a citizen in another EU country. That would be a gaping hole in their grant scheme.

If you are registering it in your relatives name then the 411 form isn't in play in that transaction (because its not being exported) and hence the Vat will need to be paid (as your relatives are not vat registered).

DrPhilG wrote: »

My understanding of the 411 form was that if I give it to the dealer, they can sell ex-vat even if the car is already registered and the grant applied. They disagree.

Where would it be registered though? To get the UK grant they need to give it UK plates and register it to a UK address. At that point it is presumably no longer on the dealers books and owned by a private citizen and they are not Vat registered so cannot sell ex Vat.

Unless you are talking about the dealer registering it as a demo car like I suggested in my last post.... that might be possible.

DrPhilG wrote: »

That was my thought, but it's the UK dealer who applies the VAT and they said that the only way they can sell it ex VAT is if its not registered.

They can sell it if they like ex Vat as long as they use the 411 form or sell directly to another Vat registered entity in the EU. The added complication is the UK EV grant which you wont get in that scenario and that makes that procedure a non-runner.


Convincing a dealer to buy it as a demo car on your behalf and then selling it to you a few months later seems the most likely to succeed option to me but still far from certain.
Ideally, they register in the company name as a demo and get grant applied, they use it as a demo for 3 or 4 months and then you buy it (ex Vat via Form 411) and then when the 6mth mark has passed you go to NCT and then you pay the 23% Irish Vat, the few hundred VRT and get your plates.

Soarer

DrPhilG wrote: »

That was my thought, but it's the UK dealer who applies the VAT and they said that the only way they can sell it ex VAT is if its not registered.

So to get it ex VAT I don't get the grant, but if I get the grant I have to pay the VAT.

I reckon the dealer is wrong, which is why there's that 411 form, or whatever it's called. There are plenty of secondhand EVs for sale in the UK that are "VAT qualified". I'm assuming that means they'll sell with the VAT rebate? Could be wrong.

But saying the dealer is right, how will you pay the VAT on this side? Your receipt will have the price you paid. So you're going to pay the VAT here on the price+VAT paid up North? Or do you think revenue will subtract the VAT from your total?

How would your dealer do a sale of an NV200 to a local tradesman? Surely it'd be sold with the VAT to get the grant, but then the VAT is claimed back for business?

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

I reckon the dealer is wrong, which is why there's that 411 form, or whatever it's called. There are plenty of secondhand EVs for sale in the UK that are "VAT qualified". I'm assuming that means they'll sell without the VAT rebate? Could be wrong.

You see the thing here is the UK EV grant. Under normal circumstances it would be fine for an ICE but getting the UK EV grant complicates things. It HAS to be registered in the UK first. I cant see there being any way around that.

If the dealer registers it themselves as a demo then you can use the 411 form.

Soarer wrote: »

But saying the dealer is right, how will you pay the VAT on this side? Your receipt will have the price you paid. So you're going to pay the VAT here on the price+VAT paid up North? Or do you think revenue will subtract the VAT from your total?

VAT is paid at the NCT centre during the VRT inspection. You will be asked for the UK invoice which will show 0% vat. They will then add the 23% Irish vat on what you've paid plus your VRT bill and away you go.

If you already paid UK VAT, I think, you just pay the difference here at the NCT centre if its considered a new car. Could be wrong on that though. Maybe they hit you for the full 23% and tell you reclaim the UK vat yourself.... hmm, that would be a kicker!

Soarer wrote: »

How would your dealer do a sale of an NV200 to a local tradesman? Surely it'd be sold with the VAT to get the grant, but then the VAT is claimed back for business?

Yea, that would be normal VAT procedure.

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

There are plenty of secondhand EVs for sale in the UK that are "VAT qualified".

Just on that point, I believe "VAT qualified" just means that it was initially sold to a VAT registered entity. It makes it easier for other VAT registered entities to buy it.

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

Just on that point, I believe "VAT qualified" just means that it was initially sold to a VAT registered entity. It makes it easier for other VAT registered entities to buy it.

Or buy for export.

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

Yea, that would be normal VAT procedure.

That's what I was getting at.

So why can't they sell the Niro without the VAT for export?

DrPhilG

KCross wrote: »

If the dealer registers it themselves as a demo then you can use the 411 form.

So would the best option be for the dealer to buy it and register it to themselves, claim the grant, and then immediately sell it to me ex-vat with a 411 form completed?

Obviously they're relying on me keeping my word to buy it, but even if I didn't they're hardly going to be left stuck with it as there is such high demand.

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

That's what I was getting at.

So why can't they sell the Niro without the VAT for export?

Not sure what distinction you are making.

Phil has to get the UK grant applied otherwise the car is too expensive.

To get the grant he has to register it to a UK address.

If he is registering to a UK address its not being exported so Form 411 is not in play.

If they register it as a demo car and get the grant applied then they can export it to Phil and maybe use the Form 411 at that stage. You have to get a dealer to agree to take over Phil's reservation first though. Not a small hurdle to jump.

KCross

DrPhilG wrote: »

So would the best option be for the dealer to buy it and register it to themselves, claim the grant, and then immediately sell it to me ex-vat with a 411 form completed?

Obviously they're relying on me keeping my word to buy it, but even if I didn't they're hardly going to be left stuck with it as there is such high demand.

Yes. Thats my suggestion although they might not be able to sell it to you "immediately". I presume there are some rules around registering demo cars and how long they have to keep them for.

The next hurdle would be, will Hyundai UK allow you to pass your reservation to a Hyundai dealer and allow them register it as a demo. Presumably Hyundai UK (click 'n buy) will be coming to you for full payment. Can you tell them that you want to give your reservation to a Hyundai dealer... they might say no to that request.

Silent Running

DrPhilG wrote: »

So would the best option be for the dealer to buy it and register it to themselves, claim the grant, and then immediately sell it to me ex-vat with a 411 form completed?

Obviously they're relying on me keeping my word to buy it, but even if I didn't they're hardly going to be left stuck with it as there is such high demand.

I'm chasing you around answering this.

That's how it works. You might need to provide proof that you're going to export it immediately, even if you're allowed 2 months in the regulations.

DrPhilG

Silent Running wrote: »

I'm chasing you around answering this.

That's how it works. You might need to provide proof that you're going to export it immediately, even if you're allowed 2 months in the regulations.

Lol, sorry. I've confused myself repeatedly at this stage...

DrPhilG

KCross wrote: »

The next hurdle would be, will Hyundai UK allow you to pass your reservation to a Hyundai dealer and allow them register it as a demo.

You're still presuming I want a Hyundai...

I'm working on the Niro option for now. If the Niro prices land in October and its too expensive then I'll have a few months to figure out the Kona.

KCross

DrPhilG wrote: »

You're still presuming I want a Hyundai...

I'm working on the Niro option for now. If the Niro prices land in October and its too expensive then I'll have a few months to figure out the Kona.

Indeed I was.
One less hurdle there then if you decide on a Niro but you still need to get a dealer to agree to sell you a demo. That might be difficult if its their only Niro demo with no sign of a new batch coming to replace it.

At least with the Kona the reservation is yours to use or lose.


Ultimately what are you gaining here? After you pay the Irish vat and VRT there might not be much difference in price? Have you calculated that?
Maybe it would be easier to just buy direct from an Irish dealer or is it the UK spec you are after?

DrPhilG

KCross wrote: »

Ultimately what are you gaining here? After you pay the Irish vat and VRT there might not be much difference in price? Have you calculated that?
Maybe it would be easier to just buy direct from an Irish dealer or is it the UK spec you are after?

I want the top spec.  Although the Kona "Paddy spec" looks like coming in at around €37k with metallic paint and that's similar to what I was expecting to be bringing in the Premium SE from the North so both price and spec would be better if I import.

Much depends on Kia.  Will they offer the top spec here and what will it cost compared to the UK.

_dof_

DrPhilG wrote: »

Any car coming in that is less than 6 months old OR has less than 6k km on the clock is classed as new and liable for VAT. Doesn't matter where you bought it as far as I know.

If I'm reading the following correctly:
https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/value-added-tax/part03-taxable-transactions-goods-ica-services/Goods/goods-transactions-motor-vehicles.pdf

then when purchasing a "New Means of Transport" from a private (non-VAT registered) individual there is no VAT chargeable.

See Chapter 10.2, in the section: "Where a private individual purchases a new vehicle (New Means of Transport) from a private individual in another country"

it says the following:

Where a private person purchases a new means of transport from a private person
in another country, there is no VAT chargeable on that transaction.

.

but maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

KCross

_dof_ wrote: »

If I'm reading the following correctly:
https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/value-added-tax/part03-taxable-transactions-goods-ica-services/Goods/goods-transactions-motor-vehicles.pdf

then when purchasing a "New Means of Transport" from a private (non-VAT registered) individual there is no VAT chargeable.

See Chapter 10.2, in the section: "Where a private individual purchases a new vehicle (New Means of Transport) from a private individual in another country"

it says the following:
.

but maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

I think the important word in that text is "private individual". Inherent in that word is that they are not VAT registered and hence the person you will be buying from will already have paid the VAT in their country and you cannot be charged the same VAT twice hence no VAT "on that transaction".

However you will still have the pay the increased VAT rate here when you present it to the NCT centre....

"... The vehicle is also liable to Irish VAT on registration, and this VAT is payable at the NCTS Centre...... The value for calculating VAT is the price charged for the vehicle, converted to Euro where necessary."

DrPhilG

My next stop will be to contact the VRT centre and enquire about the VAT.

If I knew they would just charge the extra that would be easy. But if they'll insist on the full amount and then I have to reclaim VAT, it's a nuisance.

Waiting for word back from the Kia garage though to see if they would register it to themselves for the grant and then sell to me ex VAT.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

Waiting for word back from the Kia garage though to see if they would register it to themselves for the grant and then sell to me ex VAT.

And they will!

Only restrictions are that they have to hold it for 40 days after registration before they sell to me.

I'm waiting for word back from the VRT office too. If they will agree to only charge the difference between the UK vat and the Irish, I might just do it that way to save waiting an agonising 40 days.

Plus the dealer could of course do the dirt on me and change their mind about selling it to me!