Druids Glen and Heath for sale

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Watering is never a full substitute for normal rainfall. Especially on greens which are well drained by design. Wateriing duiring this summer was probably the bare minimum. The water won't stay at the roots of the grass and you get uneven growth patterns depending on drainage. The other part of maintaining greens is cutting and there's a danger that cutting in those circumstances actually exacerbates things. That's how 'bumpy' greens happen.

How is watering not a substitute for rainfall?

Perhaps if you are not watering properly...but I'm pretty sure the grass doesn't know if the water came from the sky or the sprinkler.

Once the water is on the green then how it got there is irrelevant, no?

AhHaor

Seve OB wrote: »

I'll second that



Society once or twice a year golfers maybe

I've played a good few times and off green/white & blue tees
It's not overly long.
Most tee boxes are basically beside previous greens

You're talking about the Glen I assume?

Seve OB

GreeBo wrote: »

How is watering not a substitute for rainfall?

Perhaps if you are not watering properly...but I'm pretty sure the grass doesn't know if the water came from the sky or the sprinkler.

Once the water is on the green then how it got there is irrelevant, no?

I think he is referring to the amount of water you can realistically spray onto the greens via sprinklers as opposed to when it rains you will generally get much more of a soaking.

incidentially…. do druids have their own water source? I certainly noticed this summer courses who had their own water sources were definitely in better condition than those who don't

Seve OB

AhHaor wrote: »

You're talking about the Glen I assume?

aren't we all?

I know Big Chap was and it was his post you quoted.

HighLine

Seve OB wrote: »

I think he is referring to the amount of water you can realistically spray onto the greens via sprinklers as opposed to when it rains you will generally get much more of a soaking.

incidentially…. do druids have their own water source? I certainly noticed this summer courses who had their own water sources were definitely in better condition than those who don't

As far as I know, they do. That didn't stop a concerned citizen however reporting them to the Guards for watering greens during the hosepipe ban

prawnsambo

Seve OB wrote: »

I think he is referring to the amount of water you can realistically spray onto the greens via sprinklers as opposed to when it rains you will generally get much more of a soaking.

incidentially…. do druids have their own water source? I certainly noticed this summer courses who had their own water sources were definitely in better condition than those who don't

Indeed. It takes a hell of a lot of sprinkling to simulate rainfall. Even just think about rain that lasts for three or four hours even if not heavy rain. But it's not just the rainfall duration, it's the frequency as well. You can sprinkle your greens every evening and by the following morning, all that water has gone from the roots of the grass. Prolonged sunshine, will literally boil everything away very quickly. The real issue is the water table. Without consistent rainfall, the water table drops to the point that anything that falls, whether rainfall or artificial, drains away very quickly.

prawnsambo

HighLine wrote: »

As far as I know, they do. That didn't stop a concerned citizen however reporting them to the Guards for watering greens during the hosepipe ban

Hosepipe ban is still in place btw.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Indeed. It takes a hell of a lot of sprinkling to simulate rainfall. Even just think about rain that lasts for three or four hours even if not heavy rain. But it's not just the rainfall duration, it's the frequency as well. You can sprinkle your greens every evening and by the following morning, all that water has gone from the roots of the grass. Prolonged sunshine, will literally boil everything away very quickly. The real issue is the water table. Without consistent rainfall, the water table drops to the point that anything that falls, whether rainfall or artificial, drains away very quickly.

Without being trite....you just water more when it is as dry as it was this year.

During the height of this summer our sprinkler system started at 10pm and ran through to 7am applying approximately 180,000l of water onto the course.

We have an 8bar system pumping 700l/m from 3 bore holes and a 33,000L tank.

We also were hand watering during the day (syringing) to cool down the grass plant to keep it healthy.

I'd be expecting the same if not far more from a Championship course such as Druids.

Seve OB

to much money in Rathfarnham
not enough in Wicklow

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

Without being trite....you just water more when it is as dry as it was this year.

During the height of this summer our sprinkler system started at 10pm and ran through to 7am applying approximately 180,000l of water onto the course.

We have an 8bar system pumping 700l/m from 3 bore holes and a 33,000L tank.

We also were hand watering during the day (syringing) to cool down the grass plant to keep it healthy.

I'd be expecting the same if not far more from a Championship course such as Druids.

That sounds like a lot. But iirc, Ballyliffen were putting 540,000 litres a day on the course prior to the Irish Open. To put it in context, 180,000 litres is the equivalent of roughly a millimetre of rainfall over 50 acres. We're currently forecast to get an average of 1.5mm of rain an hour over the next twelve hours.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

That sounds like a lot. But iirc, Ballyliffen were putting 540,000 litres a day on the course prior to the Irish Open. To put it in context, 180,000 litres is the equivalent of roughly a millimetre of rainfall over 50 acres. We're currently forecast to get an average of 1.5mm of rain an hour over the next twelve hours.

We don't have 50 acres of greens....maybe 1.
So 10,000L per green per day.

I would assume Ballyliffen were watering the whole course.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

We don't have 50 acres of greens....maybe 1.
So 10,000L per green per day.

I would assume Ballyliffen were watering the whole course.

You'd be surprised how small an acre actually is. Roughly 40 yards by 100. So depending on the size of your greens, it can be as few as three greens to the acre. I just took 50 acres as an example. You could be watering tee boxes and covering areas surrounding greens as well. Just for reference, a litre of water will cover a square metre to a depth of 1mm.

I'm not sure Ballyliffen were watering the whole course. It looked pretty burned on the fairways and that's taking into account that they had three times the rainfall that the east coast had in the same period.

Johnny_Fontane

We were getting updates from our greenkeeper over the summer about the challenges faced on the course.

Just to water the greens alone was 36,000 litres (3mm) a night. To water the whole course would have taken 640,000 litres (3mm) a day.

prawnsambo

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

We were getting updates from our greenkeeper over the summer about the challenges faced on the course.

Just to water the greens alone was 36,000 litres (3mm) a night. To water the whole course would have taken 640,000 litres (3mm) a day.

Yeah. It's very difficult. Amd a lot of that can be just rescue work, bare minimum to keep the grass alive. Because the daytime temperatures and direct sunlight were producing very high evaporation levels. I'd be very reluctant to castigate any course for condition after this summer.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. It's very difficult. Amd a lot of that can be just rescue work, bare minimum to keep the grass alive. Because the daytime temperatures and direct sunlight were producing very high evaporation levels. I'd be very reluctant to castigate any course for condition after this summer.

My point is that if a private members club can keep their greens in near perfect condition during the summer, I don't understand why a "resort" such as Druids could not?

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

You'd be surprised how small an acre actually is. Roughly 40 yards by 100. So depending on the size of your greens, it can be as few as three greens to the acre. I just took 50 acres as an example. You could be watering tee boxes and covering areas surrounding greens as well. Just for reference, a litre of water will cover a square metre to a depth of 1mm.

I'm not sure Ballyliffen were watering the whole course. It looked pretty burned on the fairways and that's taking into account that they had three times the rainfall that the east coast had in the same period.

Which is why you dont typically water the whole course (we dont even have sprinklers on the vast majority of fairways, only tees and greens)

You were implying that 180,000L wasnt much "sounds like a lot but".

I'm saying its a huge amount of water when just used on tees and greens. Its 18,000M2 with 10mm of water per day...are you saying you dont think that was enough water? If so, how come it was enough for our course?

It would seem that Druids didnt use that much water if their greens were burnt as others have indicated they were. That seems like a bit of a cock up for a top supposedly class resort golf course to let that happen during the busiest time of the year?

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

My point is that if a private members club can keep their greens in near perfect condition during the summer, I don't understand why a "resort" such as Druids could not?

It's very difficult to make any kind of judgment without all the information. Do we even know if Druids has its own water supply? It's quite possible that they just weren't doing enough, but there are all kinds of factors that can affect how quickly water is lost. Amount of exposure to the sun (degree of shading), level of drainage (raised greens will lose moisture faster) or type of grass seed mix used. It's hard to make comparisons without this kind of information and there's probably a lot more that I haven't thought of.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's very difficult to make any kind of judgment without all the information. Do we even know if Druids has its own water supply? It's quite possible that they just weren't doing enough, but there are all kinds of factors that can affect how quickly water is lost. Amount of exposure to the sun (degree of shading), level of drainage (raised greens will lose moisture faster) or type of grass seed mix used. It's hard to make comparisons without this kind of information and there's probably a lot more that I haven't thought of.

Oh I agree there are a lot of factors...but thats why you have greenkeepers.

If they dont have their own water supply then it seems it was a cost issue, which leads us back to where we started about the condition of the course.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

Oh I agree there are a lot of factors...but thats why you have greenkeepers.

If they dont have their own water supply then it seems it was a cost issue, which leads us back to where we started about the condition of the course.

Yes. But we don't know. You're making an assumption based on absolutely no facts other than some anecdotal evidence and your own experience at your club. We don't know how much water Druids were putting on their greens and how much they had available. They could absolutely have been making a mess of it, but there's no evidence other than what some people have said about conditions there. But we do know that a course (Ballyliffen - a very exposed course) were using three times the water your course was using despite experiencing over three times the rainfall in the same period.

AhHaor

Druids resort have a reservoir, we were emailed during the hot weather to say it wasn't an issue. As far as I know the water supply they use is the lake at the back right of the 4th green.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yes. But we don't know. You're making an assumption based on absolutely no facts other than some anecdotal evidence and your own experience at your club. We don't know how much water Druids were putting on their greens and how much they had available. They could absolutely have been making a mess of it, but there's no evidence other than what some people have said about conditions there. But we do know that a course (Ballyliffen - a very exposed course) were using three times the water your course was using despite experiencing over three times the rainfall in the same period.

Well we know that they were not using enough if the greens were burnt, right?

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

Well we know that they were not using enough if the greens were burnt, right?

No we don't. They could be watering all night and it still may not be enough if the greens are exposed to sunlight from 5am. You can't water when the sun is up otherwise the grass gets burnt. If there's cloud cover or shade from trees, you can water away. But if not, you'll do more harm than good.

AhHaor

prawnsambo wrote: »

No we don't. They could be watering all night and it still may not be enough if the greens are exposed to sunlight from 5am. You can't water when the sun is up otherwise the grass gets burnt. If there's cloud cover or shade from trees, you can water away. But if not, you'll do more harm than good.

They didn't extensively use the sprinklers because every time they did certain bunkers would be really badly rivetted. You could use this as an indication of what greens were watered. 1 5 7 10 were obvious give aways.

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

No we don't. They could be watering all night and it still may not be enough if the greens are exposed to sunlight from 5am. You can't water when the sun is up otherwise the grass gets burnt. If there's cloud cover or shade from trees, you can water away. But if not, you'll do more harm than good.

So when it rains during the summer the grass is getting burnt in your opinion?
Is a wonder we are the emerald isle at all then given our typical weather.

And when we frequently see hand watering on the tour...that's why exactly, because they want a bit more burning?

That's a complete myth that has no basis when it comes to hardy plants like grass.
The reason you typically don't water during the day is because is wasteful due to higher evaporation levels, which are irrelevant when you are stylised to be trying to save your number 1 resource...your greens.

The simple bottom line is that if your greens are burnt it's because a decision was made to not water them enough.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

So when it rains during the summer the grass is getting burnt in your opinion?
Is a wonder we are the emerald isle at all then given our typical weather.

And when we frequently see hand watering on the tour...that's why exactly, because they want a bit more burning?

That's a complete myth that has no basis when it comes to hardy plants like grass.
The reason you typically don't water during the day is because is wasteful due to higher evaporation levels, which are irrelevant when you are stylised to be trying to save your number 1 resource...your greens.

The simple bottom line is that if your greens are burnt it's because a decision was made to not water them enough.

Well it's usually cloudy when it rains. So there should be no issue there.

Yeah, I see that they now say that burning grass is a myth. It's certainly true of broad leaved plants, I've seen that myself. But it's also true that watering at night can promote fungus and disease in grass and that the best time is in the morning.

So again, there are pluses and minuses to watering at different times. During full sunlight is massively wasteful and overnight can cause disease. So it's not as simple as just throwing as much water on as possible.

I go back to what I said at the beginning. We do not know what they were doing. How much water, how frequently, when or for what duration. The observed issues could well have been caused by fungal growth because of overnight watering. It's hugely simplistic to say they weren't watering enough.

charlieIRL

bobwilliams wrote: »

Does anyone know off hand would I get a ban if I......

Out the door with a bang. Delete that post before I do.

bailey99

What sort of condition are both the Druid courses in these days? We were hoping to get a trip up there to play both of them in the next few weeks.

BarryD2

AhHaor wrote: »

Druids resort have a reservoir, we were emailed during the hot weather to say it wasn't an issue. As far as I know the water supply they use is the lake at the back right of the 4th green.

But how do they fill this reservoir? There's a couple of small streams, the biggest from Kilmurray that flow through the courses there. But these may have practically dried up in the drought?

bobwilliams

bailey99 wrote:

What sort of condition are both the Druid courses in these days? We were hoping to get a trip up there to play both of them in the next few weeks.

The Heath is in good condition..played the Glen in the blue Tee's challenge on Monday.
Tbh greens are not great but did not ruin my round.. fairways very good, wouldn't put you off it.

Halloween Jack

Any opinion on Druids Heath from a membership perspective? I live in greystones and it’s the most keenly priced of the local courses. I would have a concern that it might be a tough (long) course for a beginner?