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New 175 route......Information please?!

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Stephen15 wrote: »

    Notice how quickly they got a new service up and running too. Must have
    Been very short lead time..

    I guess they probably don't have the whole balloting and union approval system that Dublin Bus have.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    devnull wrote: »
    Notice how quickly they got a new service up and running too. Must have
    Been very short lead time..

    I guess they probably don't have the whole balloting and union approval system that Dublin Bus have.

    Perhaps but I'd the contract allows for the NTA order these things. I wonder was the decision made as a result of passenger feedback.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    devnull wrote: »
    Notice how quickly they got a new service up and running too. Must have
    Been very short lead time..

    I guess they probably don't have the whole balloting and union approval system that Dublin Bus have.

    You guess....:rolleyes:

    Good for Go-Ahead,but then,extra journeys operated on existing routes would'nt get such munificent praise from your good self I would suggest ?

    Operating an extra Journey,on existing PSO contracted routes,operated by "another operator" (;))requires specific permission from the contracting agency,which is not always immediately forthcoming.

    I am presuming that you know that the 175 is a NEW route,with no prior operational history,and is very obviously going to be subject to alteration in order to find the best balance.

    In the case of UCD bound services in Term Time,one might not be Too surprised at,either the addition of an extra departure due to high loadings,or perhaps due to running time issues for existing journeys.

    Why you suggest operating an extra journey on the "other operators" route would require a Union Ballot is a bit of a mystery,but I'm assuming that you have direct knowledge to reinforce your belief.

    According to the NTA's own publicity,the "New" GAI operated services will have up to 30% additional service levels as part of their new :rolleyes:(still secret):rolleyes: Operating Contract,all of which is down to the NTA's requirements rather than individual operators going ballistic with their buses.

    Luckily for Go Ahead,in this valley period before the roll out of their Phase 1 transition,there are ample Vehicular & Staff resources to allow for the extra journey,which does not appear to operate in the return direction ?.....I guess ;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    You guess....:rolleyes:

    Good for Go-Ahead,but then,extra journeys operated on existing routes would'nt get such munificent praise from your good self I would suggest?

    I don't know Go-Ahead's internal procedures so I'm not going to claim that I do, since that would be dishonest and if I'm making a presumption I'm going to say so, rather than make out I know something for sure I don't.

    If Dublin Bus did the same thing within two weeks of a new timetable for a new or existing route being launched, putting a revised one in place with long-term extra services, I would certainly be giving them just as much praise. Unfortunately I never recall this happening no matter how hard I think.
    Operating an extra Journey,on existing PSO contracted routes,operated by "another operator" (;))requires specific permission from the contracting agency,which is not always immediately forthcoming.

    Why you suggest operating an extra journey on the "other operators" route would require a Union Ballot is a bit of a mystery,but I'm assuming that you have direct knowledge to reinforce your belief.

    I'm saying that when new bills are devised and new schedules are drawn up that the unions are allowed to have their view on this matter via a ballot, however there is a limited number of times that they can reject this before it is implemented and this is something that I have been told in the past by SITPU themselves. They have also confirmed that there is such thing as a schedule tribunal, where agreement cannot be reached.

    Are you seriously saying that if the company was to put forward a brand new schedule today, totally different from the old one, that had never been seen before, to start, for example on the 7th of October for instance, that schedule would certainly go ahead on that date and there is nothing that could stop it by anyone and there would be no ballot or discussion with union members about if that schedule was acceptable or not?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    devnull wrote: »
    I don't know Go-Ahead's internal procedures so I'm not going to claim that I do, since that would be dishonest and if I'm making a presumption I'm going to say so, rather than make out I know something for sure I don't.

    If Dublin Bus did the same thing within two weeks of a new timetable for a new or existing route being launched, putting a revised one in place with long-term extra services, I would certainly be giving them just as much praise. Unfortunately I never recall this happening no matter how hard I think.

    I'm saying that when new bills are devised and new schedules are drawn up that the unions are allowed to have their view on this matter via a ballot, however there is a limited number of times that they can reject this before it is implemented and this is something that I have been told in the past by SITPU themselves. They have also confirmed that there is such thing as a schedule tribunal, where agreement cannot be reached.

    Are you seriously saying that if the company was to put forward a brand new schedule today, totally different from the old one, that had never been seen before, to start, for example on the 7th of October for instance, that schedule would certainly go ahead on that date and there is nothing that could stop it by anyone and there would be no ballot or discussion with union members about if that schedule was acceptable or not?

    Taking your last point first.

    That is exactly what I am saying.

    Since the last Productivity Agreement,the issue of schedules has been significantly altered from what you believe to be the case.

    New proposed schedules are now implemented,within a defined consultation period after two drafts,whether agreed or not.

    There remains a Schedules Tribunal,to arbitrate on disputed elements,however this is only carried out when the new schedule is in effect.

    Oddy enough,this situation has not led to the collapse of organized society since it's introduction in 2016.

    The provision of ad-hoc extra journeys,subject to availability of buses and drivers,was a normal part of operation in the pre NTA days.

    The main issue was the sporadic nature of these,given the fraught nature of the vehicle availability in particular.

    The practice of consultation on schedule arrangements is not a specific Dublin Bus arrangement,it exists in many forms throughout the Bus Industry Worldwide.

    Those Regulators,Operators & Customers who value the benefits of a workable and reliable schedule,will appreciate the benefits of an agreed,rather than imposed,set of schedules.

    Luckily for us all,more and more Operators worldwide,are coming around to value the benefits of the negotiated & agreed scheuling,which is already in place in BAC.

    https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/go-ahead-up-to-speed-after-a-bumpy-start
    The first five months have been anything but smooth, but Mr Cutts said that the firm has learnt from the bumpy ride. To better monitor staff morale and concerns, it now organises focus groups, has informal engagements and better work scheduling, to keep staff happy

    Adding extra departures to address demand should be part & parcel of a dynamic scheduling process,but,if the schedule is robust enough,it should not be necessary,a fact which should feed into both NTA,and Operators scheduling procedures.

    But,if the prospect of staff engagement on such processes,is regarded as counter to some set of beliefs,then obviously a more combative approach may be required ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭greenttc


    Just wondering how this route is going and how true to the timetable it is. I am thinking of giving it a go tomorrow, have to be in tallaght at 9am and I see that I could get on it in Ballinteer at 7.54am and be at the square by 8.33am, can anyone tell me if this is accurate enough? Would certainly beat an hour on the 75 if it were accurate and I would be delighted!

    Wonder are their any plans to make some earlier buses too, seems silly to just base the timetable around ucd, would be great for people trying to get out to tallaght or City West in the mornings...


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,609 ✭✭✭Dr. Bre


    Any other routes being added soon?


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭DUBLINBUSGUY


    I was waiting at the 2nd stop towards Citywest at UCD. The 175 went by visibly full with people squashed up to the front window. They must be making a lot of money out of the route.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    I was waiting at the 2nd stop towards Citywest at UCD. The 175 went by visibly full with people squashed up to the front window. They must be making a lot of money out of the route.

    They're not making any since all the fares go to the NTA, which will mean more money to spend on Public Transport :)


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Taking your last point first.New proposed schedules are now implemented,within a defined consultation period after two drafts,whether agreed or not.

    And you reckon they can have a consultation period for two drafts and consult everyone who needs to be consulted who will work the boards and this will always, every time, be sorted out within a couple of weeks at most from the bill first being proposed?

    If so why have there been occasions that timetable introductions have been put back because SIPTU have claimed that there was no agreement on the rosters and that the company could not unitarily introduce schedules before the process has been exhausted, which resulted in postponement of the bill?
    The provision of ad-hoc extra journeys,subject to availability of buses and drivers,was a normal part of operation in the pre NTA days.

    The main issue was the sporadic nature of these,given the fraught nature of the vehicle availability in particular.

    Nothing to do with the fact that perhaps the NTA wanted to put something in the contract because of the alleged flooding corridors of rival operators services with extra taxpayer funded vehicles against a private enterprise and also services using unauthorised routes without approval at the time?
    Adding extra departures to address demand should be part & parcel of a dynamic scheduling process,but,if the schedule is robust enough,it should not be necessary,a fact which should feed into both NTA,and Operators scheduling procedures.

    Unfortunately the problem with light touch regulation (as seen with the banks and others) is that it has the potential to be abused and there were allegations that this was the case in the past, therefore with that in mind it is no wonder that the NTA decided to close a loophole that could potentially be abused to use taxpayers money to drive a commercial enterprise out of business.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    devnull wrote: »
    And you reckon they can have a consultation period for two drafts and consult everyone who needs to be consulted who will work the boards and this will always, every time, be sorted out within a couple of weeks at most from the bill first being proposed?

    If so why have there been occasions that timetable introductions have been put back because SIPTU have claimed that there was no agreement on the rosters and that the company could not unitarily introduce schedules before the process has been exhausted, which resulted in postponement of the bill?

    Nothing to do with the fact that perhaps the NTA wanted to put something in the contract because of the alleged flooding corridors of rival operators services with extra taxpayer funded vehicles against a private enterprise and also services using unauthorised routes without approval at the time?

    Unfortunately the problem with light touch regulation (as seen with the banks and others) is that it has the potential to be abused and there were allegations that this was the case in the past, therefore with that in mind it is no wonder that the NTA decided to close a loophole that could potentially be abused to use taxpayers money to drive a commercial enterprise out of business.

    Putting aside present day reality then,I suppose,we should be glad that the NTA acted so rapidly,with the alleged "loophole"now apparently closed 11 Years later.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/private-bus-operators-take-case-against-dublin-bus-1.1276243
    "We hope to prove that Dublin Bus abused its dominant position and effectively forced us to cease operations on two routes where we were providing a valued service to thousands of commuters," said Mr Morton. "I hope this case will show that Dublin Bus is subject to the same competition rules as all private bus operators, and that it can no longer use State funding in an anti-competitive manner."

    Hoping to prove,and actually proving in a Court,are two very different elements.

    It may well be the case,that the action is still pending,as several Circleline Stops remain in place to this day,obviously unbeknownst to the NTA.

    It could well now be argued that Mr Morton will have to include the Private Sector Go-Ahead group as a co respondent in his action ?

    Once again..an Irish Problem for an Irish Solution ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    It is very noticeable that Go-Ahead seem to be using their own format for timetables on their website now and are talking about their own journey planner, I really hope that is not going to be as fragmented as it sounds.
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Putting aside present day reality then,I suppose,we should be glad that the NTA acted so rapidly,with the alleged "loophole"now apparently closed 11 Years later.

    Well, that particular loophole was closed a good few years ago now Alek, so don't try and paint it out as having closed just recently, because both me and you know that it's been closed a good while ago and so long ago that the last direct award contract, valid for several years, it was mentioned in will expire next year..
    Hoping to prove,and actually proving in a Court,are two very different elements.

    I work in an industry that is pretty tightly regulated and let me tell you, if there is allegations of bad practice in my workplace and industry, not only is it deemed normal to investigate if those allegations took place, it is completely routine for such investigation, even where no wrongdoing is found, to consider what safeguards can be put in place to prevent any chance of it actually happening or claims being made that it does happen in the future since best to prevent the fire before it starts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    They have released a series of FAQs. I hope the journey planner is just a copy and paste job from the NTA journey and not one which only shows Go-Ahead services. Hopefully Bus Connects will sort out any conflict issues between the two operators and any issues with conflict between DB and GAI are only short term. I'm honestly not surprised that there will be issues and confusion when Go-Ahead start operating I think the NTA to some extent are biting off a little more than they can chew lately in their transition from merely a regulator to a provider of public transport.

    On another note I noticed a slight error in this and saying that Go-Ahead will serve Newcastle, Co.Wicklow which is area they will not be serving as the 84 was omitted from the tender which is quite odd considering it along with the 44b are the only DB routes not serving the city centre which were not included in the tender by the NTA. Unless there are NTA plans to extend the 184 to Newcastle or they meant to say the nearby town of Newtownmountkennedy which Go-Ahead will serve.
    Thursday, 20th September 2018; Go-Ahead Ireland introduced its first bus, the 175, at the beginning of the month. Operating between UCD Campus and Citywest, in a few short weeks it is already an established and busy route in the capital, servicing thousands of passengers along its 24km journey.

    According to Ed Wills, Managing Director Go-Ahead Ireland, the company’s entry into the market has been really positive, “We have recruited and trained 161 drivers – which is well on track – all of whom are ready to take over the next phase of routes, beginning on 7th October. We know there has been a lot of change to the Dublin transport landscape recently – and a lot more to come – which is why we are taking this opportunity explain how Go-Ahead Ireland fits into the picture,” he said.

    What will Go-Ahead buses look like?

    The buses are blue, white and green in the smart Transport for Ireland colours, they have Go-Ahead Ireland printed along the sides. They also have a yellow front, so they are easy to see in poor weather conditions and at night.

    What routes will Go-Ahead Ireland operate?

    By the end of January 2019 Go-Ahead Ireland will operate 10% of the current bus network in Dublin consisting of the Outer Dublin Metropolitan Area (ODMA) Public Service Obligation (PSO) bus routes. These are as follows;

    Phase 0

    Route 175 – operational since 9th September 2018
    Phase 1

    Routes 45A, 75, 63 & 59 – 7th October 2018
    Phase 2

    Routes 111, 184 & 185 – 21st October 2018
    Phase 3

    Routes 17A, 33A, 33B, 102, 104 & 220 – 2nd December 2018
    Phase 4

    Routes 17, 18, 76, 76A, 114, 161, 236, 238, 239 & 270 – 20th January 2019
    The buses will serve communities from Balbriggan in North County Dublin to Newcastle in Co Wicklow; drop off and collect from 1,721 bus stops and travel hundreds of thousands of kilometres annually. These dates are subject to alteration by the National Transport Authority (NTA).

    Who does what?

    Go-Ahead Ireland operates the bus routes which are serviced by its own drivers. The National Transport Authority (NTA) is responsible for determining the bus routes required to service the needs of the public. They also develop and manage all aspects in relation to fare setting, Real Time Passenger Information (RTPI), destinations and timetables. Transport for Ireland is the consumer brand created by the NTA.

    How can you plan your route?

    All routes can be planned online via the www.transportforireland.ie website, TFI Journey planner App and TFI Real Time Information App. In time, Go-Ahead Ireland’s website will also have a journey planner section. New bus stops will carry timetable information and in advance of switchover dates, TFI and Go-Ahead Ireland will implement a localised marketing campaign across multiple traditional and digital platforms.

    Is Go-Ahead Ireland an Irish or English company?

    Go-Ahead Ireland is an Irish company with an international workforce hailing from Africa, Australia, the UK, Ireland and many other countries. We are also an autonomous arm of The Go-Ahead Group in the UK, who has three decades of bus and rail expertise, which we draw from. We welcome diversity and if you want to work for us, visit our website for vacancy details.

    Do Go-Ahead Ireland buses take Leap cards?

    We take every method of payment the current provider takes including Leap Card, Free Travel Cards, rambler tickets, annual passes, cash and Dublin Bus tickets.

    What training do drivers receive?

    As well as technical training, we offer a range of programmes to help our drivers understand the journey from the customers perspective with a particular focus being put on customers who may be more vulnerable such as elderly travellers, those with special needs and disabilities including wheelchair users, those living with dementia, sight and hearing loss, speech disorders, learning difficulties and those on the autistic spectrum. We have also introduced age simulation training via the GERontologic Test Suit, which mimics impairments such as opacity of the eye lens, reduced grip ability, head mobility restrictions and loss of strength.

    “In April of this year we committed to an investment of €8.5m in our company here and nearly six months on, we have opened our depot in Ballymount, have a fleet of 125 buses, 217 colleagues, are on track with recruitment and continuing to employ great drivers, engineers and support colleagues; have introduced our first bus route and are looking forward to the coming months when the Go-Ahead Ireland brand expands across Dublin,” concluded Ed Wills.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    On another note I noticed a slight error in this and saying that Go-Ahead will serve Newcastle, Co.Wicklow which is area they will not be serving as the 84 was omitted from the tender which is quite odd considering it along with the 44b are the only DB routes not serving the city centre which were not included in the tender by the NTA. Unless there are NTA plans to extend the 184 to Newcastle or they meant to say the nearby town of Newtownmountkennedy which Go-Ahead will serve.

    The 184 terminates just south of Newtown, at Newcastle Hospital.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭Qrt


    175 still not on Real Time App, bit of a disgrace tbh


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Qrt wrote: »
    175 still not on Real Time App, bit of a disgrace tbh

    Indeed,and more so,given the significant resources supposedly contracted in from the London area to set it up.

    Was/is there something that prevented utilising the current RTPI infrastructure ?

    Perhaps the GAI contract will reveal the answer ?.......(Oooops....;))


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Indeed,and more so,given the significant resources supposedly contracted in from the London area to set it up.

    Was/is there something that prevented utilising the current RTPI infrastructure ?

    Perhaps the GAI contract will reveal the answer ?.......(Oooops....;))

    I have a bit of theory about that myself. Is it not on real time because if was put onto the real time system it would be fed into the DB app aswell as the TFI real time app and the NTA are looking at a way to only feed it into their app and dont want it appearing on the DB app.

    It's just a guess but it wouldn't surprise me if it were true.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I have a bit of theory about that myself. Is it not on real time because if was put onto the real time system it would be fed into the DB app aswell as the TFI real time app and the NTA are looking at a way to only feed it into their app and dont want it appearing on the DB app.

    It's just a guess but it wouldn't surprise me if it were true.


    They are separate systems, so you are wrong there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Stephen15 wrote: »
    I have a bit of theory about that myself. Is it not on real time because if was put onto the real time system it would be fed into the DB app aswell as the TFI real time app and the NTA are looking at a way to only feed it into their app and dont want it appearing on the DB app.

    It's just a guess but it wouldn't surprise me if it were true.

    It's not very likely,but,in the present fraught Busconnects world,anything is possible.

    The fact that DCC is the responsible agency for the RTPI screens,would suggest that it may well be a "turf based" issue rather than a Technical one,although,yet again....one never knows ? ;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    We will see at the start of October if the first set of routes looses real RTPI. Otherwise its a 175 specific issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Stevek101 wrote: »
    We will see at the start of October if the first set of routes looses real RTPI. Otherwise its a 175 specific issue.

    My own thinking is that the issue focuses upon the new set of GAI specific inputs,whether 175 related or not,most likely the system has to be configured to display both feeds seamlessly,but still reflect the different source ?

    Disclaimer: I'm NOT in any way an IT geek. :eek:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    175 is finally up on the TFI real time app however the new stops on Taney and Mount Anville Road have been removed for some reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    This route is proving to be very popular with high numbers using it. Aside from the college links, it is carrying full loadings to and from Dundrum at weekends. I can see a frequency increase if this keeps up. It’s great to see.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭Qrt


    How are people finding the 175 service? I got it today from Oldbawn and it was ten minutes late, but it was heading into rush hour. My cousin, however, told me that there have been loads of complaints regarding it being late but its just hearsay.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,872 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Theres a massive deficit of bus routes in and around the M50 J12 junction, so I'm not surprised its doing very well. Need more!

    But also need bus priority. Its non existant around those areas and traffic over the M50 bridge is jammed up for most of the day now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,638 ✭✭✭Qrt


    Theres a massive deficit of bus routes in and around the M50 J12 junction, so I'm not surprised its doing very well. Need more!

    But also need bus priority. Its non existant around those areas and traffic over the M50 bridge is jammed up for most of the day now.

    I think the only bus lane along the route is Taylor's Lane, mental! The 175 really does fill a deficit, which hopefully the S8 will do too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 44 ddx05


    Qrt wrote: »
    How are people finding the 175 service? I got it today from Oldbawn and it was ten minutes late, but it was heading into rush hour. My cousin, however, told me that there have been loads of complaints regarding it being late but its just hearsay.

    Its definitely quicker than the 75 in my case, but on Thursday I was waiting at the Square for the 175 for over an hour as there were 2 buses that didn't show up!

    Ive found the real time info for the 175 is a bit too optimistic sometimes, where it will disappear from the app and show up 5 mins later


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,353 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    ddx05 wrote: »
    Ive found the real time info for the 175 is a bit too optimistic sometimes, where it will disappear from the app and show up 5 mins later
    Show up on the app again or show up at the stop?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 44 ddx05


    Victor wrote: »
    Show up on the app again or show up at the stop?

    The bus would show up at the stop, roughly 5 mins after it disappeared from the app


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