Slieve Bloom trail centre

Lemming

nelly17 wrote: »

Its probably more down to the everymans rights (freedom to roam) that they have over there so there is a better appreciation of integration. Over here its ultimately up to the land owners call

It's not quite as simple as that from the impression I have. It helps, certainly, but there's more to it. Having dedicated trusts (e.g. Woodland trust, Wildlife trust, etc.) looking after natural areas limits the fallout from either indifference and/or incompetence from local councils. It also means that starting a conversation with the land-managers has a better chance of leading to some sort of positive outcome vs. some random council worker who really might not care for the outdoors or their job and is more interested in the latest episode of strictly come dancing.

I've made it all sound a bit easy; it's not. The lads behind Ride Sheffield took about five years before seeing any positives, as it took that time to build working relationships. But regardless of all that effort; Sheffield & Derbyshire councils are like night and day regards their receptiveness, so if there is no will - or intrangience from stubborn employees - there'll be no way to begin with.

Also on top of that, regards the right to roam - one of the big hurdles has been getting the local rambling groups on side as some of their members have been very hostile towards mountain bikers and completely negative regards any support. The horse folk less so. That's all changed with the "Be nice,say hi" campaign started by Ride Sheffield.

To emphasis, I could be completely wrong in my assessment as it's all based on things I've heard or seen and the impression left.

covey123

jvan wrote: »

I'd say the compo culture in this country has something to do with it.

My thoughts exactly

covey123

Lemming wrote: »

- "Be nice,say hi" campaign started by Ride Sheffield.

Goes a long way where conflict can potentially arise,still plenty of walkers/horse riders out there on the natural/shared trails who are plesently surprised by what people do on mountain bikes

prunudo

covey123 wrote: »

Goes a long way where conflict can potentially arise,still plenty of walkers/horse riders out there on the natural/shared trails who are plesently surprised by what people do on mountain bikes

Never heard of that 'Be nice, say hi' concept but its a good simple initiative to break the ice so to speak.
I'll always make an effort to say hello to people I meet in the woods but I've noticed a huge difference in responses you get from people in the likes of Ballinastoe/Djouce vs Ticknock. Up in Ticknock a lot of the walkers seem shocked and nearly put out that you've engaged with with them. Still though, as the saying goes, its nice to be nice.

prunudo

Back on topic, here is the latest from Coilltes facebook page. They're planning to open it in stages throughout the summer as the sections get finished. Fb comments aren't very positive but only time will tell what they're like.

https://www.facebook.com/189960274370069/posts/2503052236394183/

bogmanfan

Not sure why some folks are so negative on this. Firstly, none of them have actually ridden the trails yet. And what did they expect Coillte to build? I like riding rocky, rooty steep trails, but I also love fast smooth trails like Expressway in Ballinastoe or Metro in Ticknock. I'm definitely going to wait until I've been down there before deciding the whole thing is a disaster. Otherwise it's like the Daily Mail saying 'Ban this sick filth' about a movie they haven't seen yet.

Budawanny

bogmanfan wrote: »

Not sure why some folks are so negative on this. Firstly, none of them have actually ridden the trails yet. And what did they expect Coillte to build? I like riding rocky, rooty steep trails, but I also love fast smooth trails like Expressway in Ballinastoe or Metro in Ticknock. I'm definitely going to wait until I've been down there before deciding the whole thing is a disaster. Otherwise it's like the Daily Mail saying 'Ban this sick filth' about a movie they haven't seen yet.

Well said. its a bit early to be panicking I think.

covey123

I'm calling Joe Duffy...

rizzodun

bogmanfan wrote: »

Not sure why some folks are so negative on this. Firstly, none of them have actually ridden the trails yet. And what did they expect Coillte to build? I like riding rocky, rooty steep trails, but I also love fast smooth trails like Expressway in Ballinastoe or Metro in Ticknock. I'm definitely going to wait until I've been down there before deciding the whole thing is a disaster. Otherwise it's like the Daily Mail saying 'Ban this sick filth' about a movie they haven't seen yet.

I think they expect trails that will attract international tourism to be built. People think all the MTB community in Ireland want is massive gap jumps and tech sections. What they want is trails that offer progression, advancement and worthy of travelling hours to ride. It’s supposed to be World Class and attract international visitors. Ballinastoe and Ticknock are grand, but I’m hardly gonna hop on a plane to ride them! Plenty of people have ridden them by the way, so it’s not without foundation.

By the way, the Irish mentality of ‘waiting until it’s built before passing judgement’ is exactly what’s wrong with projects like this. Rather than ensuring the funds are being correctly used before it’s too late, we should rely on a out of date approach with no involvement of the user base they are trying to attract, and sure when the money is wasted and it doesn’t provide the return on investment promised the MTB community can be further slated for saying “I told you so” rather than getting involved sooner.

Ffs.

Wanderer78

rizzodun wrote:

By the way, the Irish mentality of ‘waiting until it’s built before passing judgement’ is exactly what’s wrong with projects like this. Rather than ensuring the funds are being correctly used before it’s too late, we should rely on a out of date approach with no involvement of the user base they are trying to attract, and sure when the money is wasted and it doesn’t provide the return on investment promised the MTB community can be further slated for saying “I told you so†rather than getting involved sooner.

Public amenities don't always need to have a monetary return on investment as they are provided for the well being of its citizens, and visitors

rizzodun

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Public amenities don't always need to have a monetary return on investment as they are provided for the well being of its citizens, and visitors

They do when it’s been stated in the reason for funding that they will deliver a return on investment.

Wanderer78

rizzodun wrote:

They do when it’s been stated in the reason for funding that they will deliver a return on investment.

Yea we really need to move on from this return on investment nonsense, we don't always need them

rizzodun

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Yea we really need to move on from this return on investment nonsense, we don't always need them

You countered my point, I explained that it’s the main factor in securing the funding, now we must move on.
To be clear, I’d rather not a single cent be spent on substandard trails, if that means it’s more difficult to find places to ride then fine, I’d rather not see the money wasted. It shouldn’t be for the few.

Judging by the comments on the post I’m not alone there.

Wanderer78

rizzodun wrote:

You countered my point, I explained that it’s the main factor in securing the funding, now we must move on. To be clear, I’d rather not a single cent be spent on substandard trails, if that means it’s more difficult to find places to ride then fine, I’d rather not see the money wasted. It shouldn’t be for the few.

And again, public amenities don't always need financial returns, it's not a healthy way of running a society, anyhow...

I'd imagine public trails cannot be as adventurous as other trails for various reasons including insurance, I do think public trails should be prioritised for entry level users, to encourage people to take up the sport, private operators are beginning to take up the need for the more adventurous

rizzodun

Wanderer78 wrote: »

And again, public amenities don't always need financial returns, it's not a healthy way of running a society, anyhow...

I'd imagine public trails cannot be as adventurous as other trails for various reasons including insurance, I do think public trails should be prioritised for entry level users, to encourage people to take up the sport, private operators are beginning to take up the need for the more adventurous

Look, I agree they don’t always need financial return, but in this case it was the strong reason they got the funding in the first place.

I also agree that the trails should allow entry level users, but this can be done while encouraging advanced users to travel.

In other countries public projects have achieved this, see Scotland’s strategy until 2025, bike parks in Wales, and a great example is Derby in Tasmania. I doesn’t have to be carbon copy, but they’re years ahead of our approach.

Good jib!

How would a financial return on a free local amenity be calculated anyway? Number of bike-rentals, nights in B+Bs and pints sold in Kinnitty?

Wanderer78

rizzodun wrote:

In other countries public projects have achieved this, see Scotland’s strategy until 2025, bike parks in Wales, and a great example is Derby in Tasmania. I doesn’t have to be carbon copy, but they’re years ahead of our approach.

I wonder are the folks involved in the public parks keeping up with things, I am hearing great things about your mentioned destinations?

rizzodun

Good jib! wrote: »

How would a financial return on a free local amenity be calculated anyway? Number of bike-rentals, nights in B+Bs and pints sold in Kinnitty?

Increase in spend withing the local economy. Same as other tourist attractions. As you mentioned above, but also increase in property values and commercial values due to increase in demand, for example. There's many other factors I'm sure.

booooonzo

Wanderer78 wrote: »

And again, public amenities don't always need financial returns, it's not a healthy way of running a society, anyhow...

I'd imagine public trails cannot be as adventurous as other trails for various reasons including insurance, I do think public trails should be prioritised for entry level users, to encourage people to take up the sport, private operators are beginning to take up the need for the more adventurous

They do in this case, part of funding, allows for reinvestment and the potential for growth and to create a buzz and expansion.

Also puts some level of expectation on the quality that should be delivered by allowing comparisons to private, properly run trails.

Why aim for the bottom?
Public trails should strive for excellence for all rider abilities and not prioritised for entry level.
Progression can be fast in mtb and it's mtb communities that have the potential to adopt trails and maintain/support and grow them. But not if they are glorified walking paths.

That doesn't have to mean huge features but it does mean quality progressive trails.

prunudo

Any word on how the trails are progressing?

Good jib!

Latest word from Slieve Bloom Mountain Biking on Facebook is: "Will post when the trails are open."

Ah shur it'll be ready when it's ready!

bogmanfan

I wonder how the rentals place down there must feel. They're trying to operate a business with only 5km of trails open, and the summer is half over at this stage. Has any reason been given for the repeated delays I wonder?

xxyyzz

bogmanfan wrote: »

I wonder how the rentals place down there must feel. They're trying to operate a business with only 5km of trails open, and the summer is half over at this stage. Has any reason been given for the repeated delays I wonder?

There's a lot of natural trails and fireroads up there too, although I agree it must be very frustrating. There are 2 MTB rental operations there albeit one of them just does ebikes

Tenzor07

New pic of the trails up on the coillte facebook site...


Oh dear...



https://www.facebook.com/CoillteOutdoors

prunudo

Tenzor07 wrote: »

New pic of the trails up on the coillte facebook site...


Oh dear...



https://www.facebook.com/CoillteOutdoors

As one of the posters in fb says, it be nice if they posted photos of a downhill section for a change rather than climbing trails all the time.
And to be fair the trail and surrounds look well built and will be nice once the greenery comes back.

Tenzor07

prunudo wrote: »

As one of the posters in fb says, it be nice if they posted photos of a downhill section for a change rather than climbing trails all the time.
And to be fair the trail and surrounds look well built and will be nice once the greenery comes back.

Yeap, terrible photo, looks like a new walking trail, defo not a MTB trail..

steamsey

Taken from that FB page:https://www.facebook.com/CoillteOutdoors/photos/pb.189960274370069.-2207520000.1563267117./2611569795542426/?type=3&theater

Niall Davis "To all the DH, Enduro and advanced riders out there, the trails in this first phase are not intended to impress or suit your needs. They are absolute beginner friendly blue grade XC trails. The bpi crew are doing sweet work here and will hopefully have something to your liking in the future"

prunudo

I know Niall is involved and he's right in what he's saying about that photo not being aimed at intermediate or experienced riders. But its pretty annoying to see all this public money being used and all we get are photo op and back slapping for creating so called mtb trails.
Reality is they're doing nothing for promoting tougher or even slightly technical trails and the powers that be are sitting idly by as the likes of BPI remain closed due to crippling insurance costs.

Chips Lovell

Was it not saying that first phase was intended to be beginner friendly and later phases would suit more advanced people?

prunudo

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Was it not saying that first phase was intended to be beginner friendly and later phases would suit more advanced people?

I get that, but same in Sligo, Ballinastoe and Ticknock. All designed as beginner trails with promises of more advanced stuff in time. And i know there's enduro and unofficial stuff to be found all over the country but as I said its annoying to see money being spent on stuff while nothing for red, black, jump or even pump trails and the places like BPI who provide trails for the advanced riders aren't getting any help.

covey123

Fairmount Farm and bpi mentioned there,so are the folks there having an input?If so, I'd put any worries to one side

Chips Lovell

prunudo wrote: »

I get that, but same in Sligo, Ballinastoe and Ticknock. All designed as beginner trails with promises of more advanced stuff in time. And i know there's enduro and unofficial stuff to be found all over the country but as I said its annoying to see money being spent on stuff while nothing for red, black, jump or even pump trails and the places like BPI who provide trails for the advanced riders aren't getting any help.

I understand where you're coming from. However, when public money is being spent, there's an obligation to ensure that value for money is attained. And one of the ways you do that is ensure the facility is accessible to the widest section of the public. Whatever the outcry now, can you imagine what it would be like if they did it the other way around, and built something first that was only usable by a small core of advanced riders?

covey123

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Whatever the outcry now, can you imagine what it would be like if they did it the other way around, and built something first that was only usable by a small core of advanced riders?

Exactly,DYFI bike park just opened but all expert trails so far, looks amazing but inaccessible to the masses,yours truly included.I could see Dan Atherton doing this to make it a world renowned centre,with all the publicity top riders that will no doubt be featured riding it,but to appeal to the masses,and justify public money being spent,it has to be down to the numbers attracted that can use the facility

Lemming

covey123 wrote: »

Exactly,DYFI bike park just opened but all expert trails so far, looks amazing but inaccessible to the masses,yours truly included.I could see Dan Atherton doing this to make it a world renowned centre,with all the publicity top riders that will no doubt be featured riding it,but to appeal to the masses,and justify public money being spent,it has to be down to the numbers attracted that can use the facility

Just to be anal with a point of note: Dfyi bike park was apparently entirely self-funded, so no public money nor can we really claim it to have been aimed at anyone less than expert level skills given who its creator is. Apples & Oranges.

covey123

Lemming wrote: »

Just to be anal with a point of note: Dfyi bike park was apparently entirely self-funded, so no public money nor can we really claim it to have been aimed at anyone less than expert level

That's the point I'm making, because there was no public money involved,he had free reign,but if there had been public backing, like there is in Slieve Bloom,I couldn't see how the more difficult level trails,that could only be ridden by a smaller percentage of bikers would get sanctioned to be built first

prunudo

This thread is nearly a year old and all we have to show is 4km of green trail. It be nice if they built more technical trails in conjunction with the blues/greens, I'd just be afraid that they'll be put on the long finger.

Icyseanfitz

i think the issue is that any official trails built in Ireland generally cater to pure beginners and thats the end of it, they can all spout on about plans to bring more advanced trails in but it never happens, which is why BPI and the GAP are so popular with people who are past the beginner stage.
I am excited to see more trails happening but they need to start creating a wider variety.

Lemming

covey123 wrote: »

That's the point I'm making, because there was no public money involved,he had free reign,but if there had been public backing, like there is in Slieve Bloom,I couldn't see how the more difficult level trails,that could only be ridden by a smaller percentage of bikers would get sanctioned to be built first

I think you have just stated (accidentally) the argument to never bother with such trails because "why bother? Only a small number of people will ever ride them". That sort of thinking is why over the decades - and not just for cycling - the country has so often been given mediocrity and told to be grateful for it because "shure t'is better than nothing".

Edit: I'll frame the above thoughts in the wider stated vision of having a trail centre network to rival the likes of the Seven Stains in Scotland.

Getting green & blue trails down first I fully understand; and from a pure pragmatism side of things; they'd be the least awkward to build. But we have a situation now where, to reference the officialdom quote steamsey posted earlier, the words "hopefully, "something", and "in the future" in the same sentence are offered for anything more advanced than beginner level participation. Whilst I can also appreciate that phrasing may not quite have been intended in such a manner, the choice of words doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence given that we have no other information (such as tentative time-frames even) by way of context.

steamsey

I think there are enough people around now, well past beginner stages, to justify building official advanced trails.

We also need a national trail grading system. Somehow - "Afterburner" on Ticknock is black.......a few rocks seem to warrant a black. We need to raise the bar significantly.

I was listening to a podcast recently on Scottish MTB and how well it's doing - the key point they were making was that Scotland has a National MTB Strategy - everything is considered in light of the overall strategy to develop the sport. They have specific plans - for example to have X number of MTB pros by 20XX etc etc. Perhaps that is what is missing in Ireland, unless there is a National Strategy that's tucked away somewhere....??

https://www.singletracks.com/blog/mtb-podcast/podcast-how-mountain-biking-is-being-developed-in-scotland/

We do have a Rural Regeneration and Development Fund - which is what was used for Slieve Bloom - but look what it has produced.

As a country, we should be much more aggressive about developing outdoor sports in general, but specifically MTB of course!

steamsey

Here is the Scottish strategy

http://www.dmbins.com/system/resources/BAhbBlsHOgZmSSJaMjAxOC8xMS8xNS8xMy8xNy8zNC83MjgvU2NvdHRpc2hfTVRCX1N0cmF0ZWd5XzIwMTlfMjAyNV9Db25zdWx0YXRpb25fRHJhZnRfTm92XzE4LnBkZgY6BkVU/Scottish_MTB_Strategy-2019-2025-Consultation-Draft-Nov-18.pdf

Tenzor07

Stickybottle has an article up which pretty much sums up the mood of MTB’ers:

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/slieve-bloom-mtb-trail-first-look/

xxyyzz

I think they are scared sh#tless of insurance over here. However if they keep going the way they are going it's going to be a massive white elephant. It's all very well to say it's got to cater for beginners but this is a regeneration project for the Midlands with bord failte involved. There's is nobody from the UK who is going to travel over to ride a trail that is 20 years out of date when there are dozens of trail centres in Wales and Scotland that are light years ahead. It's just going to be a massive waste of tax payers funds.

Biopace

xxyyzz wrote: »

I think they are scared sh#tless of insurance

^^This^^

Anyhoooo, I'm happy to wait and see how these trails pan out, (and then after a few years the local lads will build savage stuff off the official trails )

Gerry

I think you are spot on about insurance. I've a lot of time for Niall and what he has done for mountain biking in ireland but saying this is a blue xc trail doesn't hold water.. you could do it easily on a road bike.
I'm fine with building trails for people to ramble around the countryside but saying g its mtb is insulting. Why not just call it adventure trails or something.
I'm in an mtb club ( MAD ) and on the introductory spins people who have often never done mountain biking before take on proper, mild to medium trails..

Tenzor07

xxyyzz wrote: »

I think they are scared sh#tless of insurance over here. However if they keep going the way they are going it's going to be a massive white elephant.

I'm sure if that was the case they'd have to put padding on all the trees and foam on the ground incase anyone has a fall....

If that's the case, why bother wasting money on these trails?

From what we've seen so far I don't think anyone more advanced than a complete beginner or a family who want to "do something different" and hire a few eBikes to travel around the trail centre will bother going to it....

prunudo

I suppose its easier to make money from novices through rentals, guiding, transition year groups, stag dos etc etc, all having a great time and loving their first experiences of mountain biking.
Seasoned riders rock up, use the trails for free, possibly buy a coffee at a push a spare tube, give out that the trails are too easy with no variation and head home claiming never to come back because it isn't rad enough

iwillhtfu

Yep the trail everyone's looking at does look a bit pants but to the left of the footpath I see the makings of a nice jump to berm or an alternative drop

ianobrien

I think I'll wait to see the entire trail before I run for the pitchfork.

I think some people are jumping to conclusions based on one picture. If you took a picture of some of the fire roads on the trails in the Ballyhoura's and said that's all the trails you would think I'm daft

Gerry

Yeah I hear you, I wish they would put up more pictures.

iwillhtfu

Another one released looks a little more promising