Export of Firearm - help

ealu

Hi All, 

I am filling out the export of firearms form and there is a field "CIP Proof Yes/No", does anyone know what that means ? I have Irish licences and EU Pass for them but I am permanently exporting the rifles to Sweden. 
Any insight appreciated

SVI40

All firearms sold in the EU must be CIP proofed. If you bought it in the EU, then the answer is yes.

Cass

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In a nutshell.

ealu

Class,  thanks for that,

tac foley

ealu wrote: »

Hi All, I am filling out the export of firearms form and there is a field "CIP Proof Yes/No", does anyone know what that means ? I have Irish licences and EU Pass for them but I am permanently exporting the rifles to Sweden.
Any insight appreciated

Were the firearms concerned actually MADE in any of the 14 CIP countries? If the answer is yes, and they are proof-marked accordingly, then the answer is yes.


If the firearm was made in a non-CIP nation - the USA, as an example, is NOT a member - then you must tick the NO box.



Here is the current - WEF 2015 - list of CIP nations -



The current (2015) C.I.P. member states are:

• Austria
• Belgium
• Chile
• Czech Republic
• Finland
• France
• Germany
• Hungary
• Italy
• Russia
• Slovakia
• Spain
• United Arab Emirates
• United Kingdom

Most recent member state:
The United Arab Emirates became a member state on 9 April 2008. Local companies like Caracal International L.L.C. and ADCOM Manufacturing will benefit of a local proof house.
Former C.I.P. member state:

• Yugoslavia (formally dissolved in 1992)

The Permanent International Commission, confirming that the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is no longer in existence, declared during the XXII Plenary Session that the proof marks of the Proof House at Kragujevac would no longer be recognised by the C.I.P. Member States with effect from 30 September 1992.



Sweden is not actually a signaturee to the CIP regulations, since it no longer has its own active civilian firearms manufacturing concerns or civilan Proof House.



However, it IS a member of the EU, and firearms being permanently exported there must be CIP compliant. Note that the CIP is not industry-based, it is governmentally-based and is therefore part of the law of the land in each country within its remit. In order to be compliant, your rifles, if they were made in the USA, must be subjected to proof in the most conveniently located Proof House, probably either London or Birmingham, at your expense. Your RFD will advise you, I'm sure.


Hope this helps.


tac

ejg

I always ask myself if a rifle is built in a country without CIP proofing agency how can you export it to a country that could CIP proof it. I understood a rifle must be CIP proofed to export... ??? The out for Irish firearms manufacture?
edi

tac foley

Any firearm made entirely, or assembled from components, in the Republic of Ireland must be proofed on arrival in the end-user country. The Republic of Ireland no longer has any kind of government-formalised firearms proof test facility, and has not had for many years. There was an entirely-Irish-made shotgun a number of years ago, but that faded away very quickly.

Only then can it be disposed of to the end-user.

Quote -

Firearms proofing

Small arms manufacturers and importers within the C.I.P. member countries are obliged to request one of the accredited Proof Houses to perform the proofing of all arms they manufacture or import. No small arm can be put on the market in any of the C.I.P. member states without prior successful proofing in an accredited proof house, as regulated by the C.I.P. decisions.

After the proof test and if successful, two or three proof marks are always applied to the main (highly stressed) parts of the arm, namely the barrel, the chamber (when not part of the barrel) and the locking mechanism.

These 3 essential parts are also weighed and their weight is recorded in a database together with the serial number.

Then a serial number indicating the year of proofing is also marked on these parts. In case a firearm was voluntary successfully tested at a higher than the normally required proof-test pressure superior proof marks are applied on the relevant parts.

Only after that is the arm released to the manufacturer or importer to sell or to deliver it, if already sold.

You are responsible for sending the unproofed firearm to the equivalent of a registered dealer, with instructions and payment for proofing before he passes it on to the eventual user, but you cannot send such a firearm directly to the eventual end-user in a CIP-signaturee nation.

Every single firearm made in the USA for civilian use, of every kind, has to be proofed by the importer into a CIP/EU nation. In the case of a revolver, every chamber has to be proofed individually, and stamped accordingly. The same goes for any firearm made in a country that is not one of the CIP signaturees.

tac

ejg

Thanks Tac.
edi

tac foley

Not sure if you mean thanks, or 'thanks', so I'll leave it at that.

tac

Walter Mittys Brother

I bet you don't enjoy rugby matches tac ....................... do you think when the lads are in a scrum that they're talking about you?

ejg

tac foley wrote: »

Not sure if you mean thanks, or 'thanks', so I'll leave it at that.

tac

Just thanks, I was just not sure if it was legal to actually send a non CIP rifle away. The Irish Government would loose control of the firearm once outside of the country and would be the one who allowed a "Non CIP" firearm to be posted. If this were the case all rifle production in Ireland would be in trouble. But you wrote it is possible to export "Non CIP" rifle... so all is good. I have exported a few rifles but all were CIP approved.
edi

tac foley

As above - you can export it to a dealer in the same country as your buyer to whom you pay your own funds to have him get it proofed. He than can sell the firearm on your behalf, charging you for his assistance. As long as the end-user country actually HAS a proof house. Sweden does not, but nevertheless expects ALL firearms sold in Sweden to be CIP-compliant. Close neighbours, Germany and Finland, have firearms manufacturers and proof houses. Norway does not have a proof house, nor does Denmark, but like Sweden, expects all firearms sold there to be compliant.

OR

You send the firearm to the UK Proof House of your choice, since you are a RFD, get it proofed, receive it back from the UK Proof house, THEN send it to the eventual purchaser. All this adds to the eventual cost of the firearm concerned.

For instance, buying a Swedish Mauser from a dealer in Sweden entailed me getting it sent to my nearest Proof House, getting it proofed, and then sent on to my nearest RFD, from whom I eventually collected it. As I mentioned, Sweden has no proof house any more for civilian firearms. This added about eu120 to the cost of the rifle.

Sending non-CIP compliant rifles to Sweden would entail my advice of getting them proofed in UK, returned to the RoI, and then sending them to Sweden.

Whatever way it is done, it will cost eueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueu.....

Sending them to Finland for proofing via a Finnish dealer is another option, but will cost a small fortune, mostly, I would suggest, spent for an interpreter to talk for you on a phone, or a text translator to write the necessary letters.

tac

tac foley

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

I bet you don't enjoy rugby matches tac ....................... do you think when the lads are in a scrum that they're talking about you?

I don't play rugby. My game is hockey. Why should anybody talk about me?

Walter Mittys Brother

tac foley wrote: »

I don't play rugby. My game is hockey. Why should anybody talk about me?

Jasus bad when a thick paddy has to explain a joke to a Brit

I was hinting at your apparent paranoia that all us paddies don't like you after you're post re what kind of thanks/"thanks" ejg meant (I had a look at your post history ) Hockey, is that like hurling but for girls & sissies

Walter Mittys Brother

IIRC, in UK doesn't having firearms "in proof" only become an issue once you're selling them as in you can't sell a firearm if it's not proofed but you can use it yourself?

IIRC, in Ireland there is no legal requirement for proofing any firearm as there is nowhere to do it ......... yet (I wonder are the rumours true and it's being 'sorted' behind closed doors by the FCP)

Uinseann_16

tac foley wrote: »

As above - you can export it to a dealer in the same country as your buyer to whom you pay your own funds to have him get it proofed. He than can sell the firearm on your behalf, charging you for his assistance. As long as the end-user country actually HAS a proof house. Sweden does not, but nevertheless expects ALL firearms sold in Sweden to be CIP-compliant. Close neighbours, Germany and Finland, have firearms manufacturers and proof houses. Norway does not have a proof house, nor does Denmark, but like Sweden, expects all firearms sold there to be compliant.

OR

You send the firearm to the UK Proof House of your choice, since you are a RFD, get it proofed, receive it back from the UK Proof house, THEN send it to the eventual purchaser. All this adds to the eventual cost of the firearm concerned.

For instance, buying a Swedish Mauser from a dealer in Sweden entailed me getting it sent to my nearest Proof House, getting it proofed, and then sent on to my nearest RFD, from whom I eventually collected it. As I mentioned, Sweden has no proof house any more for civilian firearms. This added about eu120 to the cost of the rifle.

Sending non-CIP compliant rifles to Sweden would entail my advice of getting them proofed in UK, returned to the RoI, and then sending them to Sweden.

Whatever way it is done, it will cost eueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueueu.....

Sending them to Finland for proofing via a Finnish dealer is another option, but will cost a small fortune, mostly, I would suggest, spent for an interpreter to talk for you on a phone, or a text translator to write the necessary letters.

tac

70%+ of Finns speak fluent English(its the second most common language) doubt you'd need a interpreter someone on the other end of the phone would be able to understand you

tac foley

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

70%+ of Finns speak fluent English(its the second most common language) doubt you'd need a interpreter someone on the other end of the phone would be able to understand you

Between the ages of twelve and eighteen, I spent most of my six-week summer vacations in Finland, as well as a few Christmas's, too, so I am aware of the number of Finns who DO have a working knowledge of English. Our next-door neighbours are both from Ouloo and they work in the Cambridge Science Park as technicians. My comment was intended as warning that the OP might encounter one of the 30% of Finns who do NOT speak fluent English.

tac foley

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

IIRC, in UK doesn't having firearms "in proof" only become an issue once you're selling them as in you can't sell a firearm if it's not proofed but you can use it yourself?

IIRC, in Ireland there is no legal requirement for proofing any firearm as there is nowhere to do it ......... yet (I wonder are the rumours true and it's being 'sorted' behind closed doors by the FCP)

Both these statements are true.

Cass

Back on topic please.

tac foley

Sorry.

Walter Mittys Brother

tac foley wrote: »

Both these statements are true.

Fair enough I wasn't 100% sure tbh.

Are there some ranges eg Bisley that you're rifle has to be in proof?

tac foley

TBH, I've not heard of that, based on the fact that all of my guns are in proof, and so are every other one I've seen that is in shooting condition. Even an antique firearm that is intended to be fired, rather than hanging on a wall someplace, has to be demonstrably in proof or else, as you note, it could not have been sold in the first place.

A friend of mine, who collects older Winchester lever-action rifles and carbines, sends each new acquisition of to be proofed as soon as it is in his possession - that way he knows that if he wants to shoot it, after having it put on his 'ticket' as a live-firing Section 1 firearm, it will be good to go.

Firing an unproofed gun is a bit of a lottery that I'm not going to enter - one of my two Sniders will be proofed before I shoot them. One is already in proof, as the guy who gave it to me as a birthday present is the same guy who collects the Winchesters [it can be seen in action on Youtube - tac's guns - Snider], but the other one came from the family back in Canada, and to my knowledge has never been fired since the late 1880's. Thankfully, both London and Birmingham Proof Houses are sympathetic to the owners of older and perhaps very valuable guns, and issue a certificate of proof, or put the stamps where they are no visible without taking the gun out of the stock, like all my old Mausers.

Besides, here in UK, having an accident of some kind that entails any safety aspect of a gun that is not in proof means automatic lack of your shooting insurance - NRA/NRSA/BASC/HBRSA etc.

I have to admit that Bisley and I are not well-acquainted. I used to go there quite a lot when I was in the Army, but it's all a mite high-brow for me these days, and I feel quite out of place among the real shooters.