Pilot training

hilisa

Looking to start fully integrated pilot program this sept or nov with AFTA in cork 73000 euro.
We have a good bit in savings but want to get a loan to pay for the whole lot hopefully being snake to use the savings as some form of collateral,
Wondering if there is any institution that anyone knows off that would let me borrow and maybe defer payments for 12 months or even 24 ad a job would be gauranteed at the end. Or even pay interest only payments for first year or two. Boi never heard of such a thing and it’s practically more than a mortgage to pay it back, meeting aib but not confident.

b757

Why AFTA if you don’t mind?

I went the modular route. Took me just less than two years and I’m flying the 737 for the same price as AFTAs integrated course. (Albeit I’m on the old contract deal, it’s significantly cheaper now with my current company)

I’d honestly consider other options than them. You’ve got numerous flying clubs around the country for PPL/Hour building, few options of doing the ATPL, and then head off to Sweden, Spain or Poland to complete the CPL/IR.

Plus the upside with modular, you can do it in your own time, work 2/3 days a week on the side and be in a position to make your own decisions while not having your hand held throughout the training. (Few people might disagree with me there on the last one)

Best of luck with the decision, feel free to ask more questions. Like I said, there’s other options out there.

hilisa

b757 wrote: »

Why AFTA if you don’t mind?

I went the modular route. Took me just less than two years and I’m flying the 737 for the same price as AFTAs integrated course. (Albeit I’m on the old contract deal, it’s significantly cheaper now with my current company)

I’d honestly consider other options than them. You’ve got numerous flying clubs around the country for PPL/Hour building, few options of doing the ATPL, and then head off to Sweden, Spain or Poland to complete the CPL/IR.

Plus the upside with modular, you can do it in your own time, work 2/3 days a week on the side and be in a position to make your own decisions while not having your hand held throughout the training. (Few people might disagree with me there on the last one)

Best of luck with the decision, feel free to ask more questions. Like I said, there’s other options out there.

Was thinking modular but having been at their open day and seeing that all graduated are in the airline within 3 weeks to 3 months, and have one airline constantly looking for pilots from them and two others guaranteeing a job at end of training now it seems like a good option. Financing it will be what puts a stop to the dream by looking at things.
It’s all I want to do. If I go modular I will have to go full time anyway as I can’t work part time.

Doylers

If you have the cash why not pop over to Florida and smash out the PPLin 2 months(disclaimers everywhere) ?

b757

hilisa wrote: »

Was thinking modular but having been at their open day and seeing that all graduated are in the airline within 3 weeks to 3 months, and have one airline constantly looking for pilots from them and two others guaranteeing a job at end of training now it seems like a good option. Financing it will be what puts a stop to the dream by looking at things.
It’s all I want to do. If I go modular I will have to go full time anyway as I can’t work part time.

I was modular, I got a interview 2 weeks after finishing. Friend of mine, 1 week.

Most modular guys I know got interviews and jobs within 2-6 weeks.

Don't believe everything a guy with 4 stripes tells you, remember its a business and they're out to make profit.

**** Update: NO AIRLINE GUARANTEE JOBS. Don't get caught out with that ****e.

donkey balls

The lads I know all went modular while still holding down a full time job just used holidays and weekends for the training, Get the class 1 medical done first to be safe put it this way I was shocked when I failed my initial one with the eye sight tests as they are more intrusive than other medical you would do.

sportsfan90

hilisa wrote: »

Was thinking modular but having been at their open day and seeing that all graduated are in the airline within 3 weeks to 3 months, and have one airline constantly looking for pilots from them and two others guaranteeing a job at end of training now it seems like a good option. Financing it will be what puts a stop to the dream by looking at things.
It’s all I want to do. If I go modular I will have to go full time anyway as I can’t work part time.

Were you at the open day on Sunday hilisa, can I ask if you were impressed by them & their facilities? Unfortunately I couldn't make it there but my research on this and other forums shows AFTA have a good rep. Best of luck saving the money - I'm in a similar position as yourself, its tough going but all going well I reckon I'll have the money raised for the Integrated programme in about 2 years time.

Can I ask what airline is constantly looking for pilots off them and where you heard this? Also what are the two others guaranteeing a job after the training that you refer to?

milhous

Interested to hear how you got on,with fully integrated route. I would like to pursue this. Funds are not an issue. It seems in my mind that the fully integrated course is most direct and will take the least amount of research by me

It's also helpful that it's carried out completely in Ireland which would suit me for family needs.

I would like to hear opinions on both. Realistically how quick can the modular route be? I have a pretty flexible job at present and can take all the unpaid leave that I might need so may be an option.

Following on; If I passed everything how likely is it that I'd get work where I can be based in Ireland (which is necessary for me)?

California Dreamer

Rule number 1: Pass Class 1 Medical

Rule number 2-10: See Rule Number 1!!

Now once you have that and if you can do it go integrated. Get it all done in 16-18 months. NFC have a great course that runs 3 times a year.

Job after that time. Well you could get a job within a month or maybe 6 months. Nothing is guaranteed. Depends on what you want. You may desire a legacy carrier and end up doing the mail run on Shortts SD60 out of Aberdeen!!

A good resource is Flight deck friend or pilot jobs network.

Finally, see rule number 1!

donkey balls

Getting Dub as a base would be almost impossible the lads I knew on the 738 got sent to Spain and the UK, My other mate was lucky to get Dub but he not from Dublin.
And he being moved on shortly he was also saying that FR are not charging 30k for the TR these days but you are bonded for a number of years.

California Dreamer

donkey balls wrote: »

Getting Dub as a base would be almost impossible the lads I knew on the 738 got sent to Spain and the UK, My other mate was lucky to get Dub but he not from Dublin.
And he being moved on shortly he was also saying that FR are not charging 30k for the TR these days but you are bonded for a number of years.

How old is that information? These days and with the exodus of pilots the chances of getting DUB if it is a preferred base are quite high. You will be asked for a choice of 3 bases and most times you will get one of those.

The type rating is now €5k but you are bonded for 5 years.

However expect to go for command upgrade within 4 years as you will be doing close to the maximum hours each year.

donkey balls

Ah my mates did the TR back in 2010 the other lad 2016, Two other lads I know who are TRI/TRE were looking at the sandpit.
Last time I heard from them their mises put a stop to it also a few bases are losing aircraft with crew giving options for other bases.

milhous

Medical first I suppose. Then see what options are. Just wondering, if I went down the Cork route with Afta, do you walk out the door ready to apply for jobs or do you still have to find some flight time etc.

basill

If someone is willing to spend all that money on training and their aim is to join FR at the end of it then the industry is truly doomed.

mickdw

I don't follow that last comment.
Surely Ryanair are a reasonable place to get a job and build your way to something better with more money and better conditions.

milhous

basill wrote: »

If someone is willing to spend all that money on training and their aim is to join FR at the end of it then the industry is truly doomed.

For me, 75k to buy a new career within 14months that pays pretty well isn't a bad deal. My career at present is pretty boring, my undergrad will take me back to graduate Land where they work for 35-45k in a lab and that's if you're willing to commute to Dublin at peak times.

I dunno if Ryanair is good or bad to work for but I'd assume one could move on to bigger and better things. I need to do a lot of research obviously but is the dream aerlingus!?

Stovepipe

@Milhous, you need to stay current and you need to put money aside for the ME-IR renewal in year two, which has to be done in a live aircraft. Fellas tend to forget that when they get the new license in their hot little fists and have visions of instant employment.

milhous

Stovepipe wrote: »

@Milhous, you need to stay current and you need to put money aside for the ME-IR renewal in year two, which has to be done in a live aircraft. Fellas tend to forget that when they get the new license in their hot little fists and have visions of instant employment.

Yeah I suppose best thing to do is talk to the Afta and see what the craic is. It's kind of advertised as a ready to hit the sky package but I'm sure it's not that simple.

California Dreamer

basill wrote: »

If someone is willing to spend all that money on training and their aim is to join FR at the end of it then the industry is truly doomed.

Spoken from someone that only sees the public side of Ryanair.

You will not get a better quality of training than at Ryanair. Where else can you join a company and within 4-5 years have your command?

Sure you do your time and then the grass is always greener elsewhere. Nice to be 25 and be right seat on a 777 in the sand pit.

Most ex guys tell me that it is a hard life but the money is good and the training stands to them.

mickdw

Seems to me, if there are airline jobs available, the cost and time frame to employment are pretty reasonable.

1123heavy

California Dreamer wrote: »

How old is that information? These days and with the exodus of pilots the chances of getting DUB if it is a preferred base are quite high. You will be asked for a choice of 3 bases and most times you will get one of those.

The type rating is now €5k but you are bonded for 5 years.

However expect to go for command upgrade within 4 years as you will be doing close to the maximum hours each year.

I was told i will likely not get Dublin as a first base, pilots I know in the company say it isn't even unlikely but nigh on impossible for the first year or 2 at least because there is a long waiting list. Line training alright might be out of Dublin for the few weeks it lasts, but you will be sent elsewhere afterwards they told me.

Anyway I wanted to post to say that I got a job 2 weeks after graduating (not with the company mentioned above) and if I would do anything different looking back it's that I would do modular training. Integrated training made absolutely 0 difference to the job opportunities presented to me and my school played very little role in my achievements. Thankfully I got my integrated course for basically a modular price so didn't spend much more than what's reasonable

1123heavy

California Dreamer wrote: »

Spoken from someone that only sees the public side of Ryanair.

You will not get a better quality of training than at Ryanair. Where else can you join a company and within 4-5 years have your command?

Sure you do your time and then the grass is always greener elsewhere. Nice to be 25 and be right seat on a 777 in the sand pit.

Most ex guys tell me that it is a hard life but the money is good and the training stands to them.

With all respect, I see many guys go from Ryanair to Aer Lingus but I'm yet to meet anyone go from Aer Lingus to Ryanair, that's just one example, so it's far from the best company around. I have nothing against Ryanair and no doubt they have good training and pilots, but this claptrap that Ryanair are the best at this and the best at that as if they invented flying and they hold the secret formula to being a good pilot only ever comes out of their own training department. It's boring and tiring at this point for everyone else, and there are plenty of other equally if not better training departments out there. Not all other airlines are cowboys roaming the skies as you all seem to think, and some even have a good company atmosphere and are given many reasons to like their company and be passionate about it, supplementing their excellent training and creating an all round good package.

Anyway thread drift aside, to the other guy asking, AFTA will not get you a job interview in Ryanair if you go self sponsored, you will apply as any other candidate and be subject to the online assessment to go to the actual assessment like anyone else. Don't believe the hype about them offering special routes in, they are non existent routes unless you are specifically on the ryanair cadet programme from the get go (which would be a great start and i'd advise trying to go for it btw).

billie1b

1123heavy wrote: »

With all respect, I see many guys go from Ryanair to Aer Lingus but I'm yet to meet anyone go from Aer Lingus to Ryanair, that's just one example, so it's far from the best company around. I have nothing against Ryanair and no doubt they have good training and pilots, but this claptrap that Ryanair are the best at this and the best at that as if they invented flying and they hold the secret formula to being a good pilot only ever comes out of their own training department. It's boring and tiring at this point for everyone else, and there are plenty of other equally if not better training departments out there. Not all other airlines are cowboys roaming the skies as you all seem to think, and some even have a good company atmosphere and are given many reasons to like their company and be passionate about it, supplementing their excellent training and creating an all round good package.

Anyway thread drift aside, to the other guy asking, AFTA will not get you a job interview in Ryanair if you go self sponsored, you will apply as any other candidate and be subject to the online assessment to go to the actual assessment like anyone else. Don't believe the hype about them offering special routes in, they are non existent routes unless you are specifically on the ryanair cadet programme from the get go (which would be a great start and i'd advise trying to go for it btw).

Ryanair has a load of pilots from all different backgrounds, I know people who were ex garda, ex electricians, ex mechanical engineers, I also know Captains and F/O’s that came from Aer Lingus, Cityjet, Stobart, Emirates, Etihad etc etc, the list is endless, just because you haven’t heard of anyone coming from one airline to another doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, you need to remember, Dublin alone has well over 500 pilots, you’re not going to know them all.
Also saying that EI has just lost a good few engineers too that made their way to RYR cause RYR were offering better money, shifts and allowances, it all goes in cycles.
I agree with your comments about AFTA though, unless specifically on the RYR cadet programme, a person from any other school has just as good a chance as a person from AFTA to get into Ryanair, it doesn’t make a difference where you do it or how you do it

milhous

billie1b wrote: »

Ryanair has a load of pilots from all different backgrounds, I know people who were ex garda, ex electricians, ex mechanical engineers, I also know Captains and F/O’s that came from Aer Lingus, Cityjet, Stobart, Emirates, Etihad etc etc, the list is endless, just because you haven’t heard of anyone coming from one airline to another doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, you need to remember, Dublin alone has well over 500 pilots, you’re not going to know them all.
Also saying that EI has just lost a good few engineers too that made their way to RYR cause RYR were offering better money, shifts and allowances, it all goes in cycles.
I agree with your comments about AFTA though, unless specifically on the RYR cadet programme, a person from any other school has just as good a chance as a person from AFTA to get into Ryanair, it doesn’t make a difference where you do it or how you do it

What are the steps between afta and getting a job as first officer? It's a tad confusing. Where does one get the flight time?

milhous

Anybody know these guys. They seem to take you through the works.
https://nfc.ie/modular-atpl/

As someone mentioned earlier there doesn't seem to be any real benefit to the fully integrated over modular!?Allowing me to keep my current job, whilst not necessary, it would not be a bad thing.

1123heavy

billie1b wrote: »

Ryanair has a load of pilots from all different backgrounds, I know people who were ex garda, ex electricians, ex mechanical engineers, I also know Captains and F/O’s that came from Aer Lingus, Cityjet, Stobart, Emirates, Etihad etc etc, the list is endless, just because you haven’t heard of anyone coming from one airline to another doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, you need to remember, Dublin alone has well over 500 pilots, you’re not going to know them all.
t

Of course they have people who had various previous careers, like what has to be a majority of airlines across the globe. I wasn't talking about though.

I am sure people have gone from the airlines you mentioned to Ryanair. Before taking the dive and going into flying I spent sometime working in an office role for a few of the airlines based in Dublin. I can say without any doubt that most FOs from the likes of Stobart and Cityjet would be inclined to go to Aer Lingus and build their career there. It's mostly captains (often the older ones) that would tend to go to Ryanair because of the seniority system in Aer Lingus and the fact they'd lose their command, Ryanair is more attractive to those. There are of course outliers, but they're the exception more than the rule.

1123heavy

milhous wrote: »

Anybody know these guys. They seem to take you through the works.
https://nfc.ie/modular-atpl/

As someone mentioned earlier there doesn't seem to be any real benefit to the fully integrated over modular!?Allowing me to keep my current job, whilst not necessary, it would not be a bad thing.

You may think it not necessary but you need to have something to fall back on in case it takes you a little longer to get a flying job than you hope. I would always advise someone to keep their current job where possible.

milhous

1123heavy wrote: »

You may think it not necessary but you need to have something to fall back on in case it takes you a little longer to get a flying job than you hope. I would always advise someone to keep their current job where possible.

Does anyone know the time frames for both? I like the idea of throwing myself into it.
I believe whether intentional or not that going the modular route life would get in the way. I'm not sure if the integrated route is more Monday to Friday but that would suit. Wife and kids etc.

1123heavy

milhous wrote: »

Does anyone know the time frames for both? I like the idea of throwing myself into it.
I believe whether intentional or not that going the modular route life would get in the way. I'm not sure if the integrated route is more Monday to Friday but that would suit. Wife and kids etc.

The integrated route will have you occupied from morning till night 7 days a week for the ground school period. The flying then depends on how often you fly at your school, it varies a lot from place to place.

The modular route can be done whilst still keeping your current life somewhat for the ground school part, you aren't under so much pressure and can take the exams as you wish.

California Dreamer

If you train with FTE Jerez you will spend the first 6 months in the classroom. NFC will have you flying in week 1.

milhous

California Dreamer wrote: »

If you train with FTE Jerez you will spend the first 6 months in the classroom. NFC will have you flying in week 1.

Yes I've read an aerlingus blog of a pilot who trained in Jerez and then went straight in with them. I looked at their website, it's an impressive outfit. Unfortunately my wife said I cant head to the south of Spain for 62 weeks.. Well unless I take the kids with me 😂

California Dreamer

How old are you Milhous?

milhous

Early 30s

California Dreamer

milhous wrote: »

Early 30s

Plenty of time. I would go for it. Will send you PM

Lustrum

Milhous, if you've already got a wife and kids my one piece of advice is that they need to be fully on board with this. Of course you may get a job straight away, and be based around the corner from your home which would be perfect. Or as others have said you may not get a job for years, have to spend money renewing medicals and IRs every year to keep current so you can keep applying for jobs. Then the first job might be in a regional airline where you're based abroad and earning 35k a year all in, and your wife is going to be wondering why the hell you aren't home and earning 80k like you said you would be.

Just try talk to as many pilots as you can and make sure you have all the info you need, and that your wife knows what you're all about to get in to. And hopefully you go for it and it all works out, it's a long road but the views at the end are spectacular

milhous

Lustrum wrote: »

Milhous, if you've already got a wife and kids my one piece of advice is that they need to be fully on board with this. Of course you may get a job straight away, and be based around the corner from your home which would be perfect. Or as others have said you may not get a job for years, have to spend money renewing medicals and IRs every year to keep current so you can keep applying for jobs. Then the first job might be in a regional airline where you're based abroad and earning 35k a year all in, and your wife is going to be wondering why the hell you aren't home and earning 80k like you said you would be.

Just try talk to as many pilots as you can and make sure you have all the info you need, and that your wife knows what you're all about to get in to. And hopefully you go for it and it all works out, it's a long road but the views at the end are spectacular

The only, or biggest issue is that I'd need to be based in Ireland. A low salary isn't a major issue however it would nice to be working, it would be hard not to feel dejected after spending 80k or so and studying your arse off to not get a job. Barr the major airlines are there other opportunities to get working?

So far everything I've read has been positive but I suppose its much easier to find them sort of reviews as people are happy to discuss when they're successful.

Is the competition fierce or is there very few jobs?

Shamrockj

California Dreamer wrote: »

Spoken from someone that only sees the public side of Ryanair.

You will not get a better quality of training than at Ryanair. Where else can you join a company and within 4-5 years have your command?

Sure you do your time and then the grass is always greener elsewhere. Nice to be 25 and be right seat on a 777 in the sand pit.

Most ex guys tell me that it is a hard life but the money is good and the training stands to them.

Realistically people get the command quickly because so many are leaving the company which is not a great prospect for someone joining a company.

billie1b

Shamrockj wrote: »

Realistically people get the command quickly because so many are leaving the company which is not a great prospect for someone joining a company.

Thats not realistic at all, it’s mostly f/o’s who leave RYR after they get the 2500 hours for legacy carriers, you’ll notice most Captains are still there a good few years later after getting their command.

1123heavy

billie1b wrote: »

Thats not realistic at all, it’s mostly f/o’s who leave RYR after they get the 2500 hours for legacy carriers, you’ll notice most Captains are still there a good few years later after getting their command.

FOs leave the company meaning there are not enough that go onto take the command, so the waiting list for command is very short, it's the same thing. High turnover = fast time to command, it's the same the world over. A high turnover will be a symptom of something a lot deeper.

@milhous I would echo what others have said, you cannot expect to be based in Ireland post graduation, it will be a luxury if you are but do not plan on it. If you don't mind becoming an instructor then perhaps you can be, at my assessment last month someone there who is currently an instructor at the NFC mentioned they were hiring continuously, so that's a potential avenue if you don't mind it.

milhous

I'm sure the NFC will give me the low down. If stationed in the UK I wonder would they offer cheap flights to get to work once a week :pac:

Looking at having to travel for a year or two, even though it wouldn't be ideal if the long term was to get stationed in Ireland it would be doable.

Im going to book in for an introductory flight lesson with NFC, if I'm feeling happy with that going to go for the class 1 medical and then start the PPL, planning the modular route because I'm kind of tied to work for a a year anyway.

Hopefully get the ball rolling in September intake.

Thanks for all the help.

donkey balls

One of the lads I flew with in the US back in 2009 got his MEIR circa 2011, He applied for an airline but due to them looking for union recognition at the time all Irish applicants didn't get a look in.
He was lucky that he did it modular and had a job to fall back on plus doing other flight work to keep him current, Eventually he managed to get a job in 2016.
So that was 5 years of applying to every airline before landing a job now I know things have changed and their is a shortage of pilots, It is just like other professions swings & roundabouts my industry cannot get professional drivers or even managers at the moment.

As for cheap flights with a certain Irish airline most lads I know working for them outside of there home country , Commute home on their days off best of luck what ever way you decide to go about the training.

Would have loved to finish my training off but the recession kinda kicked in when I started training, I have a great job but age is definitely not on my side to go back training. :eek:

California Dreamer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCP5jWZWTgk

2:10 in. New FO 2 weeks out of training......47 years old!!!

Oasis1974

Saw a documentary about Easyjet pilot's one lady was only I think early twenties and a captain the new first officer was very late teens no lie. There combined age must have been less than 50 easy.

milhous

Saw a few of them shows. Pretty good insight into the daily grind.

I've spent a few days looking over pprune and other forums. Seems to be a mixed view on the job opportunities out there.

Seems least chance of employment is going the modular route, although people have secured commercial pilot jobs going that route.
Integrated course is a better option, but better off going with a school that is attached to an airline (ie. Afta and Ryanair). In saying that you're not gaurenteed a job with them, so you could go with the Ryanair programme and not be successful Or just go integrated without their support and be successful.

The best chance of gaining employment is to go to the like of FTE Jerez, or one of the bigger schools that a lot of airlines seem to recruit directly from.

Bit of a tough choice. I could go integrated with the likes of NFC just by taking a career break but the chances of landing a first officer job after?! Depends on the demand in 20 months time really... Wouldn't be counting on it...80k later 😅

California Dreamer

milhous wrote: »

better off going with a school that is attached to an airline (ie. Afta and Ryanair).

NFC have been around a lot longer than AFTA and countless numbers of their students have been with Ryanair. I don't think the above statement is really fair to say. If you are in Dublin I wouldnt be making the trek to Cork.

Stovepipe

Neither school is formally attached to an airline, unless you count AFTA dealing with Air Astana. What schools do is feed the airlines, so if FR come along and say "we want 12 candidates", the twelve with the best results and personal recommendation of the boss of the school will get their names put forward and then they face the hurdle of the Type Rating. In Ireland, a lot depends on airline recruiters calling the schools and asking their old mates, "What's he or she like?", and people who are arrogant or otherwise annoying get shelved quietly. Word of mouth is still strong in Ireland.

milhous

Stovepipe wrote: »

Neither school is formally attached to an airline, unless you count AFTA dealing with Air Astana. What schools do is feed the airlines, so if FR come along and say "we want 12 candidates", the twelve with the best results and personal recommendation of the boss of the school will get their names put forward and then they face the hurdle of the Type Rating. In Ireland, a lot depends on airline recruiters calling the schools and asking their old mates, "What's he or she like?", and people who are arrogant or otherwise annoying get shelved quietly. Word of mouth is still strong in Ireland.

I thought they were like a training school for Ryanair or some such. They're mentioned in their ad. Think NFC is the place for me.

faoiarvok

milhous wrote: »

I thought they were like a training school for Ryanair or some such. They're mentioned in their ad. Think NFC is the place for me.

That’s if you apply through the airline, when they’re running that sort of recruitment.

milhous

faoiarvok wrote: »

That’s if you apply through the airline, when they’re running that sort of recruitment.

No I rang AFTA, it's an ongoing thing. You do an assessment with them and if you pass its 85k for the integrated course, 6k more than their normal integrated course because they also do FR specific SOPs and you have an FR mentor too. So it's almost like a gaurenteed route to first officer with Ryanair afaik

faoiarvok

milhous wrote: »

No I rang AFTA, it's an ongoing thing. You do an assessment with them and if you pass its 85k for the integrated course, 6k more than their normal integrated course because they also do FR specific SOPs and you have an FR mentor too. So it's almost like a gaurenteed route to first officer with Ryanair afaik

Aha, sorry, thought it was more like other cadetships

California Dreamer

milhous wrote: »

No I rang AFTA, it's an ongoing thing. You do an assessment with them and if you pass its 85k for the integrated course, 6k more than their normal integrated course because they also do FR specific SOPs and you have an FR mentor too. So it's almost like a gaurenteed route to first officer with Ryanair afaik

And its so good that every flight school in europe is doing it as well.......oh wait!? :rolleyes: