I am one of the 5200 non-performing Ulster Bank mortgages.

Arthur Daley

Cortexiphan wrote: »

If that was the case, everyone would jump on it expecting a decent write-down from the Vultures. Saying that, I've heard of them paying 40cent on the Euro.

I think some may already have. This is the problem.

But it does seem the OP is engaging and paying, and they are well advised to continue to pay.

duffman13

draiochtanois wrote: »

Cerberus don't pay anything like 210k for a 230k mortgage, plus 20k in arrears.

It would be a lot more like 80k for a 230k mortgage, plus 20k in arrears.

It wouldn't be the 210k on 230k but the OP was using it was illustrative purposes.

If I was a betting man I'd say Cerberus paid around 55c on the euro based on other sales I've seen. So I'd say 120k approx for the above example.

This mass outcry from the left about vulture funds is bizarre. As has been mentioned you've a far better chance getting debt forgiveness and/or a better restructure than you would be offered by the banks.

You also have the EXACT same legal rights with Cerberus as with Ulster Bank. Making continuous payments will mean you are not at Risk. The ones who have been sitting 10 years barely paying a penny will be taken to the courts and that's what needs to happen in a functioning housing market

OhHiMark

Cortexiphan wrote: »

If that was the case, everyone would jump on it expecting a decent write-down from the Vultures. Saying that, I've heard of them paying 40cent on the Euro.

That's exactly how it works. You can go in expecting a decent write-down but if you have that attitude and won't drop it they'll just take the house. You still owe the money no matter how much Cerberus paid for the debt.

duffman13

Cortexiphan wrote: »

If that was the case, everyone would jump on it expecting a decent write-down from the Vultures. Saying that, I've heard of them paying 40cent on the Euro.

You might get some kind of debt forgiveness but these guys are no jokes when it comes to negotiations either. They may write off a portion of arrears but i dont see them taking anything off the principle. 40 cent on the euro is exaggeration IMO

troyzer

dudara wrote: »

^ Why would they give you a decent write down? They have title to the underlying asset, the house, and can move to repossess and sell if things get bad. It’s just far easier for them to do a deal and sell on the mortgage. Like all businesses they want to maximise their profit.

They have no chance of repossessing if the mortgage holder is making payments, especially if they're overpaying. That's just not how the courts work in Ireland, why do you think the banks are selling them in the first place?

It's much easier for them to buy it for 40c on the euro, collect a year or two of mortgage payments and flip it for 60c on the euro. Incredibly profitable.

hanaimai

If your interest rate is 1.5% I'm presuming that's a tracker. Just like a bank, a vulture fund cannot restructure a mortgage in such a way as you lose that tracker unless there is absolutely no sustainable restructuring arrangement available that would allow you to keep the tracker. It's extremely unlikely they'd be able to show that an arrangement where you lose your tracker is better than one where you keep it so don't worry about losing your tracker rate.

Bandana boy

€20k arrears on a 750 a month mortgage that your currently overpaying , did you go over two years not paying a penny ?

your chances of remortgaging and getting a deal are nil .
keep making your payments and you will be fine but expect any missed payments to have a fast response.

Cortexiphan

Bandana boy wrote: »

€20k arrears on a 750 a month mortgage that your currently overpaying , did you go over two years not paying a penny ?

your chances of remortgaging and getting a deal are nil .
keep making your payments and you will be fine but expect any missed payments to have a fast response.

I lost my job and was without work for a period, job was well paid back then. Struggled on half that salary for a while, and unemployed, then started to make payments of €200 a month, then back up to €800 as OH is now living with me and we split that mortgage.

Turnipman

Cortexiphan wrote: »

I was listening to that on the way home yesterday, and it was informative, but the arguement against Karl Dietrich(cant remember his name), was very weak, and spiralled towards homelessness instead.

Karl Deeter. Good lad, knows his stuff. He's the complete opposite of this self-serving windbag:- https://twitter.com/davidhall75

vandriver

Arthur Daley wrote: »

They are the definition of a bad credit risk. They are in arrears.

And the taxpayer foots the bill through the bank bailouts. I don't know who you think pays it.

Ulster Bank weren't bailed out by us.

Turnipman

vandriver wrote: »

Ulster Bank weren't bailed out by us.

Correct. Owned by RBS so the UK taxpayer had to bail them out!

Ulster Bank's main crime in Ireland was the way that they ripped so many of their tracker mortgage customers off.

Lux23

Arthur Daley wrote: »

They are the definition of a bad credit risk. They are in arrears.

And the taxpayer foots the bill through the bank bailouts. I don't know who you think pays it.

Well, Ulster Bank is a British company and Cerberus is American, so I am pretty sure your taxes are safe in this man's case. Who is paying his mortgage every month and was in difficulty for a short time.

And if these people end up on the street, who do you think might be paying for their hotel room?

amcalester

Lux23 wrote: »

Well, Ulster Bank is a British company and Cerberus is American, so I am pretty sure your taxes are safe in this man's case. Who is paying his mortgage every month and was in difficulty for a short time.

And if these people end up on the street, who do you think might be paying for their hotel room?

He won't end up on the street as long as he doesn't decide to stop paying the mortgage.

Lux23

amcalester wrote: »

He won't end up on the street as long as he doesn't decide to stop paying the mortgage.

Exactly!

Misguided1

You'll probably find it a lot easier and productive to deal with Cerebus than with the bank.
Keep making your repayments and engage with them as soon as you can.

Don't panic - these guys don't want your home.

jimmycrackcorm

draiochtanois wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Have you a source for that?

draiochtanois wrote:

This post has been deleted.

You're suggesting they'd take a loss of 170k instead of a simple write down of 20k?

Water John

Jimmy the loans are bundled when sold at a price to the VF, the good, bad and plain ugly loans are lumped together and sold off at a discount. Lets say between 50 and 60 cent in the Euro.
The loan with the OP is one of the best in the bundle. There are others where the property has risen in value from when it was low, but the client may have paid SFA. The buying price was an average over the bundle.
It's not that the OP's loan was individually discounted to 50 or 60 cent.
So the OP can take comfort that he is one of the best in the VF bundle.

duffman13

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Have you a source for that?



You're suggesting they'd take a loss of 170k instead of a simple write down of 20k?

They are two seperate points, first one someone else speculated that Cerberus spent 210k to purchase a 230k outstanding loan from the bank (on average)

The 2nd one he's saying it was more like 80k to buy the 230k loan.

I reckon it'll be around 120 or 130k for a 230k loan.

Nobody will be able to give you a source unless they work for Cerberus or Ulster Bank

Cortexiphan

I asked Ulster Bank yesterday, and they couldn't tell me how much the loan was bought for, as it is bundled with other loans.

Arthur Daley

Not singling you out, but you bought the property in 2007. people signed on the dotted line to purchase the property. A certain amount has been paid back in those 11 years. Chances are fairly high that the property is at least back up in value to it's 2007 price that you paid. Why would people think they are entitled to get a discount when a) they are adults who signed a legal contract and struck a price at a point in time b) the property is not in (or at least not significantly in) negative equity. There is a massive demand for properties, stick it on the market and it should fly, and debts are cleared. Rest easy.

You know this was how it worked before the last decade, and then people wonder why interest rates and rents are higher here than anywhere else in Europe. David Hall and others and the entire Political spectrum who cheerlead this, are directly to blame for this situation. This country is a shambles

Cortexiphan

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Not singling you out, but you bought the property in 2007. people signed on the dotted line to purchase the property. A certain amount has been paid back in those 11 years. Chances are fairly high that the property is at least back up in value to it's 2007 price that you paid. Why would people think they are entitled to get a discount when a) they are adults who signed a legal contract and struck a price at a point in time b) the property is not in (or at least not significantly in) negative equity. There is a massive demand for properties, stick it on the market and it should fly, and debts are cleared.

You know this was how it worked before the last decade, and then people wonder why interest rates and rents are higher here than anywhere else in Europe. This country is a shambles

1. The property isn't up to 2007 levels yet.
2. I'm not asking for a discount, never have been, I'm worried about eviction.
3. If I could sell the property, where do I live then?

seamus

Cortexiphan wrote: »

I asked Ulster Bank yesterday, and they couldn't tell me how much the loan was bought for, as it is bundled with other loans.

I would like to point out that the figures I gave above were plucked from my hole, merely to illustrate how a company makes money by flipping loans.

UB won't be able to tell you exactly what was paid for your loan because it would never have been explicitly discussed - someone selected a massive portfolio of loans based on a set of criteria, and then gave each a simple ranking (A, B, C, D) based on the variables of the loan (length, arrears -v- principal, interest rate, repayment performance, etc). Cerberus then agree a price for each class of loan, e.g. A - 90c/€, B- 70c/€, C - 50c/€, and so on. Again, figures plucked from nothing, just illustrative.

Then they just pay the price for the entire portfolio and the loans are transferred to them. None of the grunts in either bank will have access to the rating your loan had nor what the price was for that rating, it'd be considered sensitive commercial information.

Arthur Daley

Cortexiphan wrote: »

2. I'm not asking for a discount, never have been, I'm worried about eviction.

No, fair play. But if others out there in general are wondering about the level of 'discount' can't see why they would be, and why the Bank is in any position to disclose it's own confidential details.

Gumbo

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Not singling you out, but you bought the property in 2007. people signed on the dotted line to purchase the property. A certain amount has been paid back in those 11 years. Chances are fairly high that the property is at least back up in value to it's 2007 price that you paid. Why would people think they are entitled to get a discount when a) they are adults who signed a legal contract and struck a price at a point in time b) the property is not in (or at least not significantly in) negative equity. There is a massive demand for properties, stick it on the market and it should fly, and debts are cleared. Rest easy.

You know this was how it worked before the last decade, and then people wonder why interest rates and rents are higher here than anywhere else in Europe. David Hall and others and the entire Political spectrum who cheerlead this, are directly to blame for this situation. This country is a shambles

Many markets haven’t returned to boom levels, even in Dublin. I know an estate where the houses were all sold off the plans for 425k but they fetch about 300k now.

AlekSmart

kceire wrote: »

Many markets haven’t returned to boom levels, even in Dublin. I know an estate where the houses were all sold off the plans for 425k but they fetch about 300k now.

Ahhhh,the good oul days Joxer...."all sold off the plans".....we can't get back there quick enough

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Heres Johnny

kceire wrote: »

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Not singling you out, but you bought the property in 2007. people signed on the dotted line to purchase the property. A certain amount has been paid back in those 11 years. Chances are fairly high that the property is at least back up in value to it's 2007 price that you paid. Why would people think they are entitled to get a discount when a) they are adults who signed a legal contract and struck a price at a point in time b) the property is not in (or at least not significantly in) negative equity. There is a massive demand for properties, stick it on the market and it should fly, and debts are cleared. Rest easy.

You know this was how it worked before the last decade, and then people wonder why interest rates and rents are higher here than anywhere else in Europe. David Hall and others and the entire Political spectrum who cheerlead this, are directly to blame for this situation. This country is a shambles

Many markets haven’t returned to boom levels, even in Dublin. I know an estate where the houses were all sold off the plans for 425k but they fetch about 300k now.

My house was 375k in 2007 and I nearly bought it.
Ended up buying it in 2010 for 215k
Dropped to about 175k in 2011/12
It's now worth 300k, got it valued couple of months back to get a lower LTV mortgage rate
I don't think we are quite at 2007 levels yet, but closing in until supply is adequate to stop price rises over and above normal inflation
For what it's worth, I wouldn't buy a house now if there was a properly functioning rental market
But that's off topic....vulture funds don't want to repossess, they are playing the averages with the book of loans they bought up, the performing ones will cover non performing if they got their pricing model right. Banks just had to get the non performing off the balance sheet.

Funny name they picked though, Cerberus is a 3 headed fierce dog that guarded the gates of hell! Not exactly your friendly neighbourhood financial institution with that image!!

BrokenArrows

OP if you are paying your mortgage at the moment and have been for a while then you have nothing to worry about.

You're not going to lose your house over 20k.

Arthur Daley

Heres Johnny wrote: »

My house was 375k in 2007 and I nearly bought it.
Ended up buying it in 2010 for 215k
Dropped to about 175k in 2011/12
It's now worth 300k, got it valued couple of months back to get a lower LTV mortgage rate
I don't think we are quite at 2007 levels yet, but closing in until supply is adequate to stop price rises over and above normal inflation

Small but important point for me is that a house may have been asking 375k in 2007 but that doesn't mean it was getting it in a lot of cases. There were all sorts of properties up on daft etc in 2007/08 even 2009 asking crazy prices, but eventually even the slowest in the room had to realise they were not going to get their crazy asking price, and trees don't grow to the sky. A house asking 375k in 2007 may have actually sold for 330/340, so in a lot of cases I believe
we are close to the peak achieved.

In which case, once somebody was paying something for their accommodation over the last ten years, people claiming negative equity on prices struck in 2007 should be a fairly small number of very hard luck cases, and should be easy enough to identify and manage.

padd b1975

troyzer wrote: »

They have no chance of repossessing if the mortgage holder is making payments, especially if they're overpaying. That's just not how the courts work in Ireland, why do you think the banks are selling them in the first place?

It's much easier for them to buy it for 40c on the euro, collect a year or two of mortgage payments and flip it for 60c on the euro. Incredibly profitable.

Everything is in play in a rising market.

If they want to repossess and their highly paid legal team believe that the mortgage terms have been sufficiently breached to do so, they will bring proceedings.

Be under no illusions about that.