Overtaking; who is in the right?

Benildus

A truck is being followed by car A then car B. This procession hits a straight stretch of road - broken white line and no oncoming traffic.

Car B indicates and moves out to overtake both Car A and Truck. Car A then indicates and pulls out forcing Car B onto opposite verge and also to brake hard.

Cue much gesticulating and offensive sign language between occupants of both cars (truck driver seem nonplussed)

So who is in the right and who should have their license shredded?

omb0wyn5ehpij9

Car A is in the wrong

Boom_Bap

Car A is at fault. It should be mirroring before maneuvering and see car B is already started the overtaking maneuver.

bren2002

Both are wrong.

Car B should not be overtaking 2 vehicles and Car A should have been more defensive and checked mirrors before beginning the overtake manoeuvre.

Cordell

Normally A is to blame, but there is a special mention for those B's that clearly see the A's approaching the slow moving vehicle.

Avns1s

bren2002 wrote: »

Both are wrong.

Car B should not be overtaking 2 vehicles and Car A should have been more defensive and checked mirrors before beginning the overtake manoeuvre.

Since when is it illegal to overtake two vehicles?

site_owner

as described, Car A, they should have waited for Car B to complete the overtake since they started first

if you want a bunch of hypothetical, here are some things that might change that:

Car A was indicating and Car B missed it
or
Car B saw Car A indicating but wanted to overtake anyway as they were frustrated that Car A had not overtaken earlier
or
Car B never indicated and Car A moved out while Car B moved into their overtake at the same time
or
neither indicated
or
Car B might have been reasonably more powerful, or even just in the correct gear, to make quicker progress during simultaneous overtakes than Car A

The Backwards Man

Avns1s wrote: »

Since when is it illegal to overtake two vehicles?

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he meant overtaking an overtaking vehicle.

Turbohymac

Yes definitely car A. That driver needs to use their mirrors a lot more..its quite frankly whoever initiates maneuver first .. ie. Checks for no oncoming traffic.clearly indicates and moves out to pass..however there are many drivers at the rear who clearly don't indicate or move out slowly. But instead floors the accelerator at the first sign of light and disregards everyone else in front who are clearly waiting to pass a lot longer
A bit of common courtesy is alls needed

CeilingFly

Both should have licences shredded as both are getting hot under the collar for a small error and thus will cause a crash.

Hard to say who is at fault without being there.

Car B should give car A the opportunity to overtake first as common courtesy.

If car B basically wanted to act the bollox and commence overtaking at first opportunity as some dicks do, then car B is totally at fault.


If however Car B allowed an opportunity for car A to overtake first and car A did not do so in a timely manner and only did so as Car B commenced the manoeuvre, then car A is at fault.


So unless there was video of it, a definitive answer is not possible.

khaldrogo

Cordell wrote:

Normally A is to blame, but there is a special mention for those B's that clearly see the A's approaching the slow moving vehicle.

Maybe car A had had 4/5 opportunities prior to this to overtake and didn't.

Cordell

Maybe, I was just saying, as a general observation, when car A has exactly 0 opportunities because it's not the time yet car B decides to overtake, forcing car A to brake. Not illegal, just some lack of common courtesy and situational awareness. Usually happens on the motorways or dual carriageways.

Turbohymac

Ah well whoever initiates the pass out maneuver first. Certainly if car a was on an unfamiliar road well then car b ie spot on to pass out.and if I were car a I would have no issue waiting till b daf had passed.. common courtesy needed by all

Benildus

I was driving car B!

site_owner wrote: »

as described, Car A, they should have waited for Car B to complete the overtake since they started first

if you want a bunch of hypothetical, here are some things that might change that:

Car A was indicating and Car B missed it Car A was not indicating before I started my move
or
Car B saw Car A indicating but wanted to overtake anyway as they were frustrated that Car A had not overtaken earlier as above
or
Car B never indicated and Car A moved out while Car B moved into their overtake at the same time I indicated and had moved out
or
neither indicated No, we both indicated (at different times)
or
Car B might have been reasonably more powerful, or even just in the correct gear, to make quicker progress during simultaneous overtakes than Car A not sure this is relevant, as I've no idea what gear he was in

CeilingFly wrote: »

Both should have licences shredded as both are getting hot under the collar for a small error and thus will cause a crash. Car A caused me to move into opposite verge, if I hadn't there would have been a collision between us.

Hard to say who is at fault without being there.

Car B should give car A the opportunity to overtake first as common courtesy. He had sight of the clear road before I had and had not indicated by the time I started my move

If car B basically wanted to act the bollox and commence overtaking at first opportunity as some dicks do, then car B is totally at fault. As above, he had the opportunity


If however Car B allowed an opportunity for car A to overtake first and car A did not do so in a timely manner and only did so as Car B commenced the manoeuvre, then car A is at fault.


So unless there was video of it, a definitive answer is not possible. No video available

khaldrogo wrote: »

Maybe car A had had 4/5 opportunities prior to this to overtake and didn't. No safe opportunities available prior to the straight stretch of road

Cordell wrote: »

Normally A is to blame, but there is a special mention for those B's that clearly see the A's approaching the slow moving vehicle. There was no "approaching" as we were both behind the truck for a similar amount of time, I did not just come up on them

PeaQueue

Car A is at fault. 
I don't even see how its open for discussion. Whoever initiated the move first has right of way during the overtake.

creedp

CeilingFly wrote: »

Both should have licences shredded as both are getting hot under the collar for a small error and thus will cause a crash.

Hard to say who is at fault without being there.

Car B should give car A the opportunity to overtake first as common courtesy.

If car B basically wanted to act the bollox and commence overtaking at first opportunity as some dicks do, then car B is totally at fault.


If however Car B allowed an opportunity for car A to overtake first and car A did not do so in a timely manner and only did so as Car B commenced the manoeuvre, then car A is at fault.


So unless there was video of it, a definitive answer is not possible.

How many time have you (Car followed a car (Car A) that simply doesn't want to overtake or is unable to overtake the vehicle in front? If all Car B's always waited politely (how long is considered polite) to see if Car A's wanted to overtake there would be a lot more funeral processions behind slow moving trucks and buses on Irish roads. Its bad enough as it is!

Bottom line if Car B indicates to overtake, then he is perfectly entitled to overtake Car A and truck once it is safe to do so. In fact if I was Car C or D etc in this slow moving procession I would be giving Car B a big thumbs up as his actions would then allow me to safely overtake Car A and truck and so on down the procession!! Part of the problem on Irish roads is that there are far too many 'Car As' and not nearly enough 'Car Bs' ...

SnakePlissken

OP was driving Car B... Car B is totally at fault so

fancy pigeon

Is car A an Audi and car B a BMW?

Kevin Finnerty

I was Car B once. ****er forced me onto the opposite verge while I was braking, took off when hit the verge through a block wall.
He drove off, never got his number plate and ended up with 2 bills, my car and someone else's wall.

Unlucky OP. Stupid drivers are the biggest danger out there.

PeaQueue

This sort of thing is why cars should come with dash cams built into the rear view mirror as standard these days.

Blazer

Car A in the fault completely.
I don’t know how many times I’ve been Car B and watched as Car A took nearly a whole stretch of road to overtake and then I was stuck behind the truck for ages.
Now I just overtake the 2 and to hell with them.. and if I even see car A attempting to overtake I blow the hell out of them.

Dakota Dan

Kevin Finnerty wrote: »

I was Car B once. ****er forced me onto the opposite verge while I was braking, took off when hit the verge through a block wall.
He drove off, never got his number plate and ended up with 2 bills, my car and someone else's wall.

Unlucky OP. Stupid drivers are the biggest danger out there.

Well you hit the wall with your car car a was not liable for the bills.

Kevin Finnerty

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Well you hit the wall with your car car a was not liable for the bills.

True. And if the Gardai had have been called I would've been told the same.
If only I had a dash cam back then.

CiniO

CeilingFly wrote: »

Car B should give car A the opportunity to overtake first as common courtesy.

If car B basically wanted to act the bollox and commence overtaking at first opportunity as some dicks do, then car B is totally at fault.

Total nonsense.
I never heard of a requirement for such common courtesy.

If however Car B allowed an opportunity for car A to overtake first and car A did not do so in a timely manner and only did so as Car B commenced the manoeuvre, then car A is at fault.


So unless there was video of it, a definitive answer is not possible.

Fault is not judged on some self-invented rules.

Car A had an legal obligation to check if he wasn't being overtaken before he committed to go ahead with his overtaking manouver, that's why he is at fault.

Graham_B18C

Benildus wrote: »

(truck driver seem nonplussed)

Was it oul Tony McGregor driving the truck?!

Turbohymac

Clearly a lot of drivers should stay in the back seat and let responsible people drive..its not which car is wrong to pass it's the p***ks behind the wheel. Who should have left their starting point to safely reach their chosen destination 10 minutes earlier.

RobAMerc

Its completely A's fault. the sad thing is in this day and age, had there been an accident any investigations starting point would have been that you speeding caused the crash and you would be forced to debunk that and begin from there.

Kevin Finnerty

Turbohymac wrote: »

Clearly a lot of drivers should stay in the back seat and let responsible people drive..its not which car is wrong to pass it's the p***ks behind the wheel. Who should have left their starting point to safely reach their chosen destination 10 minutes earlier.

Who are you saying is the priçk here? A or B? Or both?

kirving

Car A is at fault.

I drive country roads where there are only a couple of overtaking places. I know the roads and where is safe to overtake.

What can happen to muddy the waters is me in car B driving along, come up behind a tractor and Car A doing 50kph. Approaching my usual overtaking spot, I slow to leave some distance to build speed on my side of the road for a quick and safe overtake.

Come around a corner to the straight, me building speed. Car A hasn't build up as much speed, and only do so when they see the clear straight.

I really can't be surprised when they don't see me in the mirror as we've just come around a bend. Given that I know the road ahead, I should expect that it may happen, and only overtake when I'm sure they see me.

Can do this by a quick flash of the lights, followed by indicating well in advance. Moving onto the opposite side of the road a little early and staying there for a moment to give Car A amply time to see in the mirror.

I've been car B on a few occasions, and while I don't have to do the above, it makes a big difference in my experience.

For reference, this is a common place I wait to overtake as the road is full sighted for around 1km. Around the righthand bend, with enough speed to overtaking, and Car A wont see you even if they look just beforehand, so you have to account for that.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4557242,-8.1165858,3a,75y,283.92h,93.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOCvVRxKxU9nolZ08kONjig!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Turbohymac

Hi Kevin flannery..I think it's quite clear by many other posters here that a lot of the issues are caused by impatience..lack of respect and a very small bit of common courtesy.. for the last time whichever driver initiates a maneuver first should be observed by all other drivers and allowed to pass the slower truck..max 90kph. However in many scenarios both car drivers can get frustrated and make BAD decisions which cannot be reversed at that point.. front car driver might have been behind truck waiting to pass when safe and as soon as car b got a glimpse of free road possibly floored it with no pre checks or use of indicator to inform others.. this makes driver b. A P**ck.. other scenario. Driver a wasn't fast enough to check clear road to safety overtake and simply got angry cos driver b was more proactive in getting safely past the truck..then a is clearly wrong..
Anyway there's no camera footage of this maneuver of both cars as is correctly pointed out by a previous poster.. then there's 3 sides to every story... car driver a's story.. then there's car driver b's story and then there's the actual truth... oh. And don't worry at all about me cos I'm up front in the truck getting a good view of the p***ks trying to pass a very long vehicle on continuous white lines.. on a narrow single lane each way road and I'm on the speed limiter can't do any more..
Thanks Kevin

Kevin Finnerty

@ Kevin Irving

Just because you flashed the lights doesn't give you right of way. If I was Car A if I have my mind made up to go regardless of whether you flashed me or not, I'm going.
Unless you're in your overtaking manoeuvre coming up past me.

Dakota Dan

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Car A is at fault.

I drive country roads where there are only a couple of overtaking places. I know the roads and where is safe to overtake.

What can happen to muddy the waters is me in car B driving along, come up behind a tractor and Car A doing 50kph. Approaching my usual overtaking spot, I slow to leave some distance to build speed on my side of the road for a quick and safe overtake.

Come around a corner to the straight, me building speed. Car A hasn't build up as much speed, and only do so when they see the clear straight.

I really can't be surprised when they don't see me in the mirror as we've just come around a bend. Given that I know the road ahead, I should expect that it may happen, and only overtake when I'm sure they see me.

Can do this by a quick flash of the lights, followed by indicating well in advance. Moving onto the opposite side of the road a little early and staying there for a moment to give Car A amply time to see in the mirror.

I've been car B on a few occasions, and while I don't have to do the above, it makes a big difference in my experience.

For reference, this is a common place I wait to overtake as the road is full sighted for around 1km. Around the righthand bend, with enough speed to overtaking, and Car A wont see you even if they look just beforehand, so you have to account for that.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4557242,-8.1165858,3a,75y,283.92h,93.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOCvVRxKxU9nolZ08kONjig!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

So you start building up speed before you go round the bend and whether you know the road is clear or not?

kirving

Dakota Dan wrote: »

So you start building up speed before you go round the bend and whether you know the road is clear or not?

Build up speed, within the limit, closing the gap to Car A, and being ready to overtake should the road be clear. If it's not, just back off a bit and stay behind.

Kevin Finnerty wrote: »

@ Kevin Irving

Just because you flashed the lights doesn't give you right of way. If I was Car A if I have my mind made up to go regardless of whether you flashed me or not, I'm going.
Unless you're in your overtaking manoeuvre coming up past me.

Fair enough, I'd always give Car A the chance to overtake by backing off a good bit beforehand (allowing them to back off too with zero pressure).

Kevin Finnerty

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Build up speed, within the limit, closing the gap to Car A, and being ready to overtake should the road be clear. If it's not, just back off a bit and stay behind.



Fair enough, I'd always give Car A the chance to overtake by backing off a good bit beforehand (allowing them to back off too with zero pressure).

I'd be the same as yourself in most of the rest of it tbf. I flash once I'm in the other lane so car A is getting me in his side mirror as opposed to rearviewer. ( if I feel hes not aware of me).
But I've been car A too. If I'm not in the humour I'll just back off 40 yards or so give someone else a go at it. It's the car A thats stuck up the back of the slower moving vehicle that annoys me no end when he has no intention of overtaking.

road_high

Benildus wrote: »

A truck is being followed by car A then car B. This procession hits a straight stretch of road - broken white line and no oncoming traffic.

Car B indicates and moves out to overtake both Car A and Truck. Car A then indicates and pulls out forcing Car B onto opposite verge and also to brake hard.

Cue much gesticulating and offensive sign language between occupants of both cars (truck driver seem nonplussed)

So who is in the right and who should have their license shredded?

That's happened me a few times (been Car . Dithering idiot in Car A decides at the last second to pullout in front of you. Always give them a very wide berth now

ianobrien

Car A is at fault as he changed lanes into the other carrageway when it was not clear to do so. Car B was in possession of the carrageway. The fact that Car B was in the carrageway going the opposite direction to normal travel is not of consequence, Car B was in the carrageway and Car A moved without checking that it's clear.

Didn't Car A remember "Mirror, Signal, Maneuver"

The Rape of Lucretia

CiniO wrote: »

Total nonsense.
I never heard of a requirement for such common courtesy.

There never is a requirement for common courtesy.
But some people choose to be courteous however. Some don't.
Its a question of character.

Casati

I was ‘car b’ this Sunday, and as I passed car a they started indicating and blowing the horn at me. After they passed the truck they drive up behind me and hit full beams (night time).

What to do in this situation?

redcup342

hahahah, I was in Poland a few weeks ago and there was a car C overtaking a car B while he was overtaking Car A :P

Car C was trying to overtake 2 trucks and 2 cars at the same time.

Ah sh*t roads bring out the worst in people :pac:

creedp

Turbohymac wrote: »

Hi Kevin flannery..I think it's quite clear by many other posters here that a lot of the issues are caused by impatience..lack of respect and a very small bit of common courtesy.. for the last time whichever driver initiates a maneuver first should be observed by all other drivers and allowed to pass the slower truck..max 90kph. However in many scenarios both car drivers can get frustrated and make BAD decisions which cannot be reversed at that point.. front car driver might have been behind truck waiting to pass when safe and as soon as car b got a glimpse of free road possibly floored it with no pre checks or use of indicator to inform others.. this makes driver b. A P**ck.. other scenario. Driver a wasn't fast enough to check clear road to safety overtake and simply got angry cos driver b was more proactive in getting safely past the truck..then a is clearly wrong..
Anyway there's no camera footage of this maneuver of both cars as is correctly pointed out by a previous poster.. then there's 3 sides to every story... car driver a's story.. then there's car driver b's story and then there's the actual truth... oh. And don't worry at all about me cos I'm up front in the truck getting a good view of the p***ks trying to pass a very long vehicle on continuous white lines.. on a narrow single lane each way road and I'm on the speed limiter can't do any more..
Thanks Kevin

No difficulty with the 'guys up front' not being able to exceed their limiter but what contributes a lot to road rage and drivers taking unecessary risks is 2 or more 'guys up front' tailgating each other. Not very courteous to other road users and the said 'guys up front' could well be described using that discourteous term overly used here.

ohnonotgmail

ianobrien wrote: »

Car A is at fault as he changed lanes into the other carrageway when it was not clear to do so. Car B was in possession of the carrageway. The fact that Car B was in the carrageway going the opposite direction to normal travel is not of consequence, Car B was in the carrageway and Car A moved without checking that it's clear.

Didn't Car A remember "Mirror, Signal, Maneuver"

"Mirror, Signal, Mirror, Maneuver"

redcup342

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

"Mirror, Signal, Mirror, Maneuver"

Mirrors, Check Blind Spot, Signal, Mirrors, Maneuver.

Not checking your blind spot is why this can happen in the first place.

seagull

redcup342 wrote: »

Mirrors, Check Blind Spot, Signal, Mirrors, Maneuver.

Not checking your blind spot is why this can happen in the first place.

I learnt it as
Mirrors, Signal, Mirrors, Check Blind Spot, Maneuver.
A bike in particular can move from out of sight into your blind spot remarkably quickly.

Wildcard7

It generally takes 2 parties to make an accident, just like in this scenario.


Car A is in the wrong, as they should have checked their mirrors and not have gotten in the way of a car already in the process of overtaking.


But car B could have avoided this if he waited to see if Car A is overtaking the truck itself.


Overtaking from the back of a convoy at the beginning of a straight without first making sure that none of the other cars wants to overtake is a dick move that leads to completely avoidable situations.


Also, when overtaking multiple cars at once, with an obstacle (truck/tractor/horses/bikes/whatnot) at the very front, you need to be extra careful and aware that other cars could pull out. If another car pulling out to overtake comes to you as a shock, maybe you're not fit for a drivers license.

lawred2

So driver of Car A should be more careful, vigilant and observant.

However I'd like to know whether Car A had any genuine opportunities prior to this to overtake the truck - if not then driver of Car B is an impatient clown who will end up being involved in more scrapes than just this one.

frozenfrozen

seagull wrote: »

I learnt it as
Mirrors, Signal, Mirrors, Check Blind Spot, Maneuver.
A bike in particular can move from out of sight into your blind spot remarkably quickly.

or as they teach it on the motorbike IBT:

Mirror, Indicate, Lifesafer, FOOKING MANOEUVRE
or MILF

creedp

Wildcard7 wrote: »

Overtaking from the back of a convoy at the beginning of a straight without first making sure that none of the other cars wants to overtake is a dick move that leads to completely avoidable situations.


Also, when overtaking multiple cars at once, with an obstacle (truck/tractor/horses/bikes/whatnot) at the very front, you need to be extra careful and aware that other cars could pull out. If another car pulling out to overtake comes to you as a shock, maybe you're not fit for a drivers license.

lawred2 wrote: »

So driver of Car A should be more careful, vigilant and observant.

However I'd like to know whether Car A had any genuine opportunities prior to this to overtake the truck - if not then driver of Car B is an impatient clown who will end up being involved in more scrapes than just this one.

Maybe this is why people prefer to travel in slow moving processions rather that indicate and overtake when safe to do so - afraid of incurring the wrath of the good citizen police force - seriously someone who is just going about their business and operating within the ROTR shouldn't be subjected to this kind of abuse.

selectamatic

Casati wrote: »

I was ‘car b’ this Sunday, and as I passed car a they started indicating and blowing the horn at me. After they passed the truck they drive up behind me and hit full beams (night time).

What to do in this situation?

Give them tinkies and see if they can keep up? :P

Wildcard7

creedp wrote: »

Maybe this is why people prefer to travel in slow moving processions rather that indicate and overtake when safe to do so - afraid of incurring the wrath of the good citizen police force - seriously someone who is just going about their business and operating within the ROTR shouldn't be subjected to this kind of abuse.

No, people who pilot one and a half ton of metal at 80 km per hour should anticipate the possibility of other people making mistakes, otherwise they shouldn't do that sort of thing.


I don't know about you, but I've been taught in driving school and in almost 20 years of driving to try and anticipate other peoples mistakes, just like I make mistakes as well.


And overtaking 2 cars is inherently a maneuver that requires extra attention. If you can't see that, then I'm not sure what to say anymore.

lawred2

creedp wrote: »

Maybe this is why people prefer to travel in slow moving processions rather that indicate and overtake when safe to do so - afraid of incurring the wrath of the good citizen police force - seriously someone who is just going about their business and operating within the ROTR shouldn't be subjected to this kind of abuse.

It's never 100% safe to overtake multiple vehicles in one maneuver. Especially if one of those is a truck. You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. The thing with sharing the road with others is that just going about your business isn't sufficient in an environment where we are all dependent on each other to get home safely.

I was specific in asking whether that was the first overtaking opportunity presented to either car A or car B and if it was and car B goes billy big balls straight out into the oncoming lane then he is indeed an impatient clown. And not someone driving safely with due care to other road users.

Now if car A was sitting in procession and didn't take any opportunity that presented itself to overtake - which is something I've seen countless times - then car A is just as a likely to be the cause of an accident. But the reality is that car A is less likely to be in that accident.

I know which car I'd like to travel in.

In the OP's case - car A is at fault but car B isn't without blame. Overtaking multiple vehicles just isn't a safe move.

creedp

lawred2 wrote: »

It's never 100% safe to overtake multiple vehicles in one maneuver. Especially if one of those is a truck. You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. The thing with sharing the road with others is that just going about your business isn't sufficient in an environment where we are all dependent on each other to get home safely.

I was specific in asking whether that was the first overtaking opportunity presented to either car A or car B and if it was and car B goes billy big balls straight out into the oncoming lane then he is indeed an impatient clown. And not someone driving safely with due care to other road users.

Now if car A was sitting in procession and didn't take any opportunity that presented itself to overtake - which is something I've seen countless times - then car A is just as a likely to be the cause of an accident. But the reality is that car A is less likely to be in that accident.

I know which car I'd like to travel in.

In the OP's case - car A is at fault but car B isn't without blame. Overtaking multiple vehicles just isn't a safe move.

I'll remain deluded if it means I can continue to overtake 2 slow moving vehicles when I have sufficient visibility to complete this manoeuvre in a safe manner.