The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

muffler

In fairness Pearse Doherty asked a question about it in the Dail 2 years ago.

NIMAN

muffler wrote: »

In fairness Pearse Doherty asked a question about it in the Dail 2 years ago.

2 years is a long time ago, have they been silent since?

Don't get me wrong, I welcome them talking about it and getting the message out there, but I just think there is a bit of a case of them seeing it as a cause which will stand them well come election time, as they know people are angry about McConnellogue and McHugh doing so little.

Coincidental that Mary Lou asked the question just as this campaign was getting so much social media coverage?

jj880

We need to get away from this settling for bullsh!t attitude. Ah sure RTE had the protest on their website. Ah sure didnt someone ask a question in the Dail a few years back. Reminds me of that savage eye sketch "HE FIXED THE ROAD!".

All TDs / councillors in North Donegal need to know they'll be gone if this isnt signed off and delivered before the next election. Ideally a lot sooner. No more Joe McHugh cute hoor antics of announcing a half baked scheme 2 weeks before voting day.

Swindled

jj880 wrote: »

All TDs / councillors in North Donegal need to know they'll be gone if this isn't signed off and delivered before the next election. Ideally a lot sooner. .

This is exactly where the real power lies, and the only hope/reason the powers that be will make any concessions whatsoever for local TD's. The TD's party bosses only fear loss of power, and for power, they need TD's elected. NOTHING ELSE motivates them.

No one effected with Mica can afford to wait till the next election, however IF the local politicians, and more importantly, their bosses knew for sure 6-12,000 votes could be heading elsewhere, and worst of all for them, to single issue Mica candidates, they will all act and come together to prevent single issue Mica candidates from ever declaring / getting off the ground. The only way they could prevent this, if numbers of those genuinely willing to Vote otherwise are convincing enough . . . is deliver the goods now.

So in other words, keep the pressure on all the local politicians, especially the ones in actual power (or more accurately the ones keeping their bosses in actual power), and if they don't deliver the goods soon, then, and only then, it's time for single issue Mica candidates.

Colin Clarke

Oh my god. I just typed in "Mica in Houses" because of the protests yesterday in Donegal and Mayo and you guys have been living with it for 3 YEARS, that is disgusting, a total disgrace. I live in Dublin and we had a lot of pyrite in foundation's which is being resolved a hell of a lot quicker and that won't bring the house down on your head. We need to put real pressure on government to solve this and €20m won't cut it, there is a reported 5700 homes (not houses) homes involved in this, this is a disgrace.

Penfailed

Colin Clarke wrote: »

Oh my god. I just typed in "Mica in Houses" because of the protests yesterday in Donegal and Mayo and you guys have been living with it for 3 YEARS, that is disgusting, a total disgrace. I live in Dublin and we had a lot of pyrite in foundation's which is being resolved a hell of a lot quicker and that won't bring the house down on your head. We need to put real pressure on government to solve this and €20m won't cut it, there is a reported 5700 homes (not houses) homes involved in this, this is a disgrace.

Much longer than three years unfortunately.

Swindled

Colin Clarke wrote: »

Oh my god. I just typed in "Mica in Houses" because of the protests yesterday in Donegal and Mayo and you guys have been living with it for 3 YEARS, that is disgusting, a total disgrace. I live in Dublin and we had a lot of pyrite in foundation's which is being resolved a hell of a lot quicker and that won't bring the house down on your head. We need to put real pressure on government to solve this and €20m won't cut it, there is a reported 5700 homes (not houses) homes involved in this, this is a disgrace.

Thanks for the support Colin, Most people have been fighting for help/redress since about 2012-2014, some a lot longer.
I could be wrong, but I believe you to be one of the few in the Leinster pyrite scheme area that has expressed solidarity / sympathy with us.
We appreciate that.

NIMAN

Appreciate you taking the time to investigate this further Colin.

As mentioned, it's been going a lot longer than 3 years. A relative replaced the outer leaf of their house themselves about 4 or 5 years ago, and they had the cracks for maybe close to a decade before they decided to do that.

It's not a new issue at all, they reckon houses built from 1996 onwards could be affected, so it is going to be a big number and a very costly job to fix. As you said, pyrite was sorted quickly and a lot of this was due to location. We in Donegal feel our location is seen as not as important. But hopefully this campaign will force the government to sit up, listen and sort this problem properly.

NIMAN

It's a pity LiveLine wouldn't cover this story.

He spent 3 full weeks on the menopause.

Peoples homes are falling down around them, we had 2 protest marches at the weekend with upwards of 7000 at them, yet today he is covering gift vouchers, which had been covered multiple times over the years.

salonfire

NIMAN wrote: »

Appreciate you taking the time to investigate this further Colin.

As mentioned, it's been going a lot longer than 3 years. A relative replaced the outer leaf of their house themselves about 4 or 5 years ago, and they had the cracks for maybe close to a decade before they decided to do that.

But surely replacing the outer leaf is not the complete solution either?

The inner leaf contains mica as well and the subfloor blocks of the inner leaf are sitting in water and mud. How long can the inner leaf last like that? The bottom of the cavity will always have water I would have thought.

jj880

salonfire wrote: »

But surely replacing the outer leaf is not the complete solution either?

The inner leaf contains mica as well and the subfloor blocks of the inner leaf are sitting in water and mud. How long can the inner leaf last like that? The bottom of the cavity will always have water I would have thought.

I would guess it was a matter of get something done before the house collapses and hope for a redress scheme before the inner leaf goes. Maybe people couldnt afford to do outer and inner leaf.

I agree though. The inner leaf would eventually need replacing. Im no builder but dont the upstairs floors rest on the inner leaf? Imagine a floor of bison slabs sitting on a mica infested inner leaf. Its a time bomb. Needs redress before someone is crushed.

malinheader

The only way Rte will take notice is if a protest is taken to Dublin. We have seen the media coverage we received from our national broadcaster and the very poor highlighting by our councillors and politicians. I can't see nothing changing until the protests are ramped up. Hopefully I'm wrong but looking at the nearly non existent coverage and non importance an issue from rte it says alot about where we are as a county on this island.

salonfire

jj880 wrote: »

I would guess it was a matter of get something done before the house collapses and hope for a redress scheme before the inner leaf goes. Maybe people couldnt afford to do outer and inner leaf.

I agree though. The inner leaf would eventually need replacing. Im no builder but dont the upstairs floors rest on the inner leaf? Imagine a floor of bison slabs sitting on a mica infested inner leaf. Its a time bomb. Needs redress before someone is crushed.

Not to mention the weight of the roof sits on the inner level as well. Which could be sitting on crumbling blocks beneath the ground where the condition cannot be seen.

Complete rebuilding of the house is the only solution.

muffler

Apart from the inner leaf Im wondering how this affects the other concrete elements of the house ... foundations, sub floors, lintels etc. Im sure the engineer involved would have included this in his survey but it hasnt been mentioned much

muffler

Following on from the lack of coverage by sections of the media I noticed that a thread on the mica problem here was started 5 years ago in the Climate Change, Sustainability & Environmental Issues forum and up until today there wasnt a single reply. Goes to show how much the rest of the country care about us.

Ginger83

NIMAN wrote: »

Appreciate you taking the time to investigate this further Colin.

As mentioned, it's been going a lot longer than 3 years. A relative replaced the outer leaf of their house themselves about 4 or 5 years ago, and they had the cracks for maybe close to a decade before they decided to do that.

It's not a new issue at all, they reckon houses built from 1996 onwards could be affected, so it is going to be a big number and a very costly job to fix. As you said, pyrite was sorted quickly and a lot of this was due to location. We in Donegal feel our location is seen as not as important. But hopefully this campaign will force the government to sit up, listen and sort this problem properly.

Did replacing the outer leaf solve anything or just for appearance?

Not a straight forward job either I'd say depending on the insulation used.

malinheader

Rte news now covering a protest outside of the smithwicks brewery in kilkenny, there is about 6 or 7 protesters. You couldn't make it up.

NIMAN

Ginger83 wrote: »

Did replacing the outer leaf solve anything or just for appearance?

Not a straight forward job either I'd say depending on the insulation used.

Only time will tell if its worthwhile doing it or not.

The logic for people replacing just the outer leaf is that hopefully only this set of blocks have been affected by weathering, and have weakened. Because the inside leaf is protected, it might still have its original strength (if that was good enough strength to begin with is a different argument of course) and as a result, putting brand new blocks on the outside, which should act as proper protection then for the weaker inner leaf?

Of course this is only a potential option if the inner blocks show no damage at all. Many of the home owners in Inishowen have cracks on their inside blocks too, and these have no option but to demolish.

However, the current redress scheme has a condition that you can only apply once. So if you were going down that route, and your inner leaf was made of blocks with the same Mica content as your outer leaf, if you only change the outer leaf and then in 20 years time your inner leaf shows cracks, you're beat. You have to fund any works yourself. Demolition in other words. So you can probably imagine if you got samples taken now, and it shows both the outer and inner leafs have high Mica content in the blocks, you'd be better levelling the house and rebuilding, and do it right.

I have seen 5 houses within a couple of kms of where I live replace their outer leafs only in the last 6 months, all at the expense of the homeowners themselves.

Swindled

I read in some of the local papers somewhere, that about 80% of applications received so far are for replacing the outer leaf.

Demolishing the house comes with huge financial risks are well though.

- Firstly unless it's an exact copy of the existing house you may have to get planning permission, and you will then be also subject to the now huge county council development charges that comes with it, along with getting plans drawn up etc.

- All the furniture and belongings have to be moved out and stored somewhere.

- Then all the fittings you're supposed to salvage, according to the "grant" and use in the "new" house have to be carefully dismantled, removed, transported and stored somewhere, from toilets, showers, to kitchens / utility rooms, windows, doors etc.

- Then your're supposed to find somewhere else to rent and live while the house is being demolished and rebuilt, and pray the re-build is not delayed.
NONE of the above costs are included in the "90%" "Grant"

Cost of any new foundations not included in the "Grant" as demolish and re-build "grant" only covers down to found level

- Then you have to find an approved landfill facility to "dump" your demolished house in.
Also anyone that ever built their own house knows you are no where near finished a house when you move in, and the "grant" does not cover finishing, decorating etc.

Oh and you have to find the funding for all this and on top of your existing mortgage, manage to pay those payments on top of your mortgage payments, and pray to God the Council will actually pay out then when the house is finished.

Not for the faint hearted, the elderly or ill, and a massive risk.

And I'm sure there are many more risks I've not listed above.

All this proves yet again, the whole grant idea is utterly flawed, and this should be a proper compensation scheme, not a "grant" scheme, and the let people do whatever they want with the money, like any other damages/liability payment is supposed to be.

Aleppo_rex

Swindled wrote: »

I read in some of the local papers somewhere, that about 80% of applications received so far are for replacing the outer leaf.

Demolishing the house comes with huge financial risks are well though.

- Firstly unless it's an exact copy of the existing house you may have to get planning permission

You have to apply for planning even if it's an exact copy. Then you'll have to upgrade the house to modern standards to even qualify for planning. The whole thing is a nightmare

Swindled

The more you study this, the more it's clear this should be a proper compensation/damages award, not a half baked "grant" scheme, and let people spend their damages / compensation as they see fit.

It would not stand up in any other damages/compensation issue to be given a grant in lieu of proper compensation.

I think it's time the state was taken to the EU courts.

This is utterly scandalous at every level.

NIMAN

And shows exactly why the current redress scheme is not fit for purpose.

Penfailed

Aleppo_rex wrote: »

You have to apply for planning even if it's an exact copy. Then you'll have to upgrade the house to modern standards to even qualify for planning. The whole thing is a nightmare

I'm lead to believe that's optional. You can reuse your existing windows rather than upgrade to triple glazing for example.

Technique

There are maximum amounts payable also which may leave the homeowner liable for a lot more than 10% of the cost.

https://www.donegalcoco.ie//defectiveconcreteblocks/stage2-grantapproval/stage2-whatgrantamountisavailable/

NIMAN

Technique wrote: »

There are maximum amounts payable also which may leave the homeowner liable for a lot more than 10% of the cost.

https://www.donegalcoco.ie//defectiveconcreteblocks/stage2-grantapproval/stage2-whatgrantamountisavailable/

A lot of people up here are already saying it is going to cost a multiple of 10% to do this right.

Some even estimate it will cost them up to 100k.
How are people expected to pay 100k on top on an existing mortgage?

The Gov have tried to sell this 90/10 scheme, which is nonsense. Its going to cost most people more than 10% by the time its all done.

Swindled

Also knocking your home has a huge psychological impact people don't realise.
Years ago my Uncle's family had a house fire, no one hurt, all got out, but the home had to be entirely demolished and rebuilt again.
His family still talk about it today, the worst thing for them was not the actual fire, but watching your home be demolished in front of you.
They say something like that never leaves you, and I'd well believe it.

NIMAN

To be honest, if my house had to be tumbled, I'd rather not stand and watch it happen.

babybuilder

Anyone know the numbers of homes affected by the scheme. Then there is the average cost to renovate or rebuild. Would €100k per home be an average ballpoint figure? Then there's the large number of second homes, holiday lets, businesses, farm buildings, garages etc which are nor part of the redress scheme. Surely these deserve to be looked at?

Penfailed

babybuilder wrote: »

Anyone know the numbers of homes affected by the scheme. Then there is the average cost to renovate or rebuild. Would €100k per home be an average ballpoint figure? Then there's the large number of second homes, holiday lets, businesses, farm buildings, garages etc which are nor part of the redress scheme. Surely these deserve to be looked at?

There's north of 5,000 homes affected and €100k wouldn't look at it...

jj880

As Swindled has stated the scheme needs to provide for future rebuilds. To include houses not showing signs of mica yet on top of people who have signs of mica but have not come forward for whatever reason. For example a lot of people may not yet realise their house insurance does not cover defective blocks. To fix this properly once and for all it could be 10s of 1000s of buildings at an average of 200k+ each.