The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

timmyntc

jj880 wrote: »

As Swindled has stated the scheme needs to provide for future rebuilds. To include houses not showing signs of mica yet on top of people who have signs of mica but have not come forward for whatever reason. For example a lot of people may not yet realise their house insurance does not cover defective blocks. To fix this properly once and for all it could be 10s of 1000s of buildings at an average of 200k+ each.

There needs to be some accountability in construction also - Cassidys were supplying defective blocks well past 2010. Several houses built post-boom have already begun to crack & MICA confirmed as the reason.

Swindled

The costs to ordinary people are enormous, but compared to other annual public expenditure they are not.

Let's try a very rough quick ballpark exercise, please don't shoot down the figures, the important point is putting the total cost in PERSPECTIVE

Let's say it's 7,500 homes [the figures vary wildly] probably more, but not everyone will proceed / come forward
Let's say the smallest simplest house, has external leaf repair only at about 50k, to a large detached house demolished/rebuilt at about 350k)
Most will not be either as little as 50k or as much as 350k
So let's say the mean is about 150k

That's 1.125 billion, let's round that up to say 1.5 billion over 15 years (some years a lot busier than others),
That's about 100 million a year average.

Let's say we are wildly wrong with the above figures, and it could be anywhere between 50 million a year and 150 million a year depending on the busiest years.


Sounds enormous ? To a person yes, to our national budget, no.


The following was spent on Covid by the government in 2020 :
€16.4 billion in additional expenditure measures,
€10 billion of which went on income supports;
€3.2 billion in Revenue measures, such as tax deferrals;
and €5 billion in indirect measures such as credit guarantees and loans.

Total public expenditure in 2019 was about €77.5 billion

Back in 2008, 7.5 Billion was thrown into Anglo Irish Bank in ONE DAY alone by our Government, in the vain hope of keeping it afloat.

Our national debt is 243 billion, annual interest payments on this debt are 10 billion a year.

We pay out about 700-900 million a year in aid to foreign countries

The state paid €183m last year to provide accommodation for Asylum seekers.

About 21 billion is spent on social welfare payments in a normal year (2019)

Swindled

timmyntc wrote: »

There needs to be some accountability in construction also - Cassidys were supplying defective blocks well past 2010. Several houses built post-boom have already begun to crack & MICA confirmed as the reason.

The problem in the Irish construction industry is there are reams of building regulations, standards and laws, but almost zero actual enforcement or inspection of them by the Government authorities, and that's why the Government is always left on the hook.

The state will inspect a little coffee shop to death to ensure food hygiene regulations are actually carried out, but will never look at what a quarry/contractor is doing.

(They have a farce of a system called self certification, where you pay someone private to write up any certs you need. The private certifiers that are" too strict", get no work. Would the NCT work in practice if you could just pay any private mechanic to give you any old cert, I think not. Some would be genuinely inspected, some would not be, you know yourself.)

Hence you have everything from Pyrite to Mica, to Priory hall type problems with fire regulations / fire proofing.

Companies insurance, if they even have any, doesn't cover mal practices.
The sums of money are so large when any problems come up, the companies involved just declare bankruptcy and fold up. Companies are separate legal entities, so when they are gone, they are gone. Change the name of the Directors, and away you go again with a new one. (yes it's wrong, and rogue's should not be able to do this, but we need to concentrate our energies on getting the money to fix our homes, and the rogues can be boycotted.)

overshoot

Penfailed wrote: »

I'm lead to believe that's optional. You can reuse your existing windows rather than upgrade to triple glazing for example.

Building regulations are law, not optional and not tied to planning. If you knock your old house youre building a new one it must be an A-rated house.

If the old windows can reach the standard, work away,
DLcoco may turn a blind eye... But a bank/mortgage/future sale may not unless the council may formally offer an exemption from building regs due to circumstances

malinheader

Swindled wrote: »

The problem in the Irish construction industry is there are reams of building regulations, standards and laws, but almost zero actual enforcement or inspection of them by the Government authorities, and that's why the Government is always left on the hook.

The state will inspect a little coffee shop to death to ensure food hygiene regulations are actually carried out, but will never look at what a quarry/contractor is doing.

(They have a farce of a system called self certification, where you pay someone private to write up any certs you need. The private certifiers that are" too strict", get no work. Would the NCT work in practice if you could just pay any private mechanic to give you any old cert, I think not. Some would be genuinely inspected, some would not be, you know yourself.)

Hence you have everything from Pyrite to Mica, to Priory hall type problems with fire regulations / fire proofing.

Companies insurance, if they even have any, doesn't cover mal practices.
The sums of money are so large when any problems come up, the companies involved just declare bankruptcy and fold up. Companies are separate legal entities, so when they are gone, they are gone. Change the name of the Directors, and away you go again with a new one. (yes it's wrong, and rogue's should not be able to do this, but we need to concentrate our energies on getting the money to fix our homes, and the rogues can be boycotted.)

This is %100 true and until the government get serious about addressing this they will be the ones held responsible for footing the bill for cowboys or gangsters who couldn't be bothered putting enough cement in their blocks.
I have stated on this thread before about Homebond too.people being assured that the construction of the house they are buying was carefully checked and watched by Homebond, far far from reality. Only a farce in my experience. Big changes needed in certification and quality checks in all aspects of construction.

Blub123

timmyntc wrote: »

There needs to be some accountability in construction also - Cassidys were supplying defective blocks well past 2010. Several houses built post-boom have already begun to crack & MICA confirmed as the reason.

Cassidys are still firing out these blocks !!

Unless the blocks came from a limestone producer I wouldn't touch them.

Swindled

Bottom line is Scrap the "Grant" nonsense, provide full compensation and damages due.
Send the message out that the first party to deliver this gets up to 2 extra TD's in the Dial, which will possibly win that party national power.
There's a huge number of votes up for grabs in Donegal over the Mica issue.

Put measures in place to ensure this kind of negligence can never happen again elsewhere in Ireland.
Currently this is an "accident" ready to happen again, and it will if they don't learn the lessons.

Blub123

salonfire wrote: »

But surely replacing the outer leaf is not the complete solution either?

The inner leaf contains mica as well and the subfloor blocks of the inner leaf are sitting in water and mud. How long can the inner leaf last like that? The bottom of the cavity will always have water I would have thought.

There are some less than reputable / lazy / inept surveyors/engineers going out and submitting a report to the council that only the outer leaf replacement is necessary...and of course this being the cheapest option it will be accepted by the council.

The vast, vast majority will need to be knocked and rebuilt.

This then raises its own issues that there simply wont be enough builders in Donegal to service the redress scheme.

Penfailed

overshoot wrote: »

Building regulations are law, not optional and not tied to planning. If you knock your old house youre building a new one it must be an A-rated house.

If the old windows can reach the standard, work away,
DLcoco may turn a blind eye... But a bank/mortgage/future sale may not unless the council may formally offer an exemption from building regs due to circumstances

Thanks for the clarification.

jj880

Anyone watch the Dail exchanges earlier tonight?

Green party minister Malcolm Noonan says the existing scheme is "fair and equitable". Unbelievable.

The only concession he made was that the block testing fee MIGHT be moved to a later stage of redress so the homeowner wont have to pay this up front.

I would hope this is just their opening position but it sounds like a Dublin protest will be needed.

NIMAN

Swindled wrote: »

The costs to ordinary people are enormous, but compared to other annual public expenditure they are not.

Let's try a very rough quick ballpark exercise, please don't shoot down the figures, the important point is putting the total cost in PERSPECTIVE

Let's say it's 7,500 homes [the figures vary wildly] probably more, but not everyone will proceed / come forward
Let's say the smallest simplest house, has external leaf repair only at about 50k, to a large detached house demolished/rebuilt at about 350k)
Most will not be either as little as 50k or as much as 350k
So let's say the mean is about 150k

That's 1.125 billion, let's round that up to say 1.5 billion over 15 years (some years a lot busier than others),
That's about 100 million a year average.

Let's say we are wildly wrong with the above figures, and it could be anywhere between 50 million a year and 150 million a year depending on the busiest years.


Sounds enormous ? To a person yes, to our national budget, no.


The following was spent on Covid by the government in 2020 :
€16.4 billion in additional expenditure measures,
€10 billion of which went on income supports;
€3.2 billion in Revenue measures, such as tax deferrals;
and €5 billion in indirect measures such as credit guarantees and loans.

Total public expenditure in 2019 was about €77.5 billion

Back in 2008, 7.5 Billion was thrown into Anglo Irish Bank in ONE DAY alone by our Government, in the vain hope of keeping it afloat.

Our national debt is 243 billion, annual interest payments on this debt are 10 billion a year.

We pay out about 700-900 million a year in aid to foreign countries

The state paid €183m last year to provide accommodation for Asylum seekers.

About 21 billion is spent on social welfare payments in a normal year (2019)

You make a lot of good and valid points.

Estimated house numbers that I have heard over the last few years are 4000 to 5000. Of course it could be more, perhaps there are plenty of houses not showing any signs of damage yet. As I mentioned in another post, apparently a house built in 1996 is now showing cracks. So it took 25yrs for that houses' blocks to start failing. So there are probably loads of homeowners out there whose houses look ok now. Whether they look ok in 5,10 yrs time, who knows?

Of course in the great scheme of things, it is not a lot of money to fix by Gov standards. If 5000 homes needed done at 200k each, thats €1bn. Of course 1bn is a lot of money, but hasn't the Gov borrowed something like 30bn to pay for 1yr of Covid? Borrowing is dirt cheap at present, sticking another 1 or 2bn on to our debt to fix the Mica issue ain't going to change the countries finances by much. Yet it would mean so much to so many families.

I see the campaigners today told everyone to get registered with DCC if they suspect they might be affected, as current numbers are low and if the Gov were to publish them, they could say "sure there are only 500 people saying they are affected".

But it can be a grey area as to whether to register or not. Me for example, my plaster is showing some very fine lines, whether it is highlighting underlying Mica issues, I don't know. They have been there for several years now, and haven't really got worse. People who might know better than me have said they might be just plaster related. But it would cost me 6K now to get core samples done and tested. This is a scandalous cost for many, and I don't see why the Gov couldn't take charge of this and do it themselves, at their expense. That way many people would come forward for testing, and it would give them a better idea of the extent of the issue.

But again, I think the initial scheme had roadblocks built into it to make it unpalatable for people to go through, and to discourage claims.

NIMAN

Good editorial in the Derry Journal

https://www.derryjournal.com/news/environment/derry-journal-editorial-mica-homeowners-deserve-no-less-than-100-3250031

Swindled

jj880 wrote: »

Anyone watch the Dail exchanges earlier tonight?

Green party minister Malcolm Noonan says the existing scheme is "fair and equitable". Unbelievable.

The only concession he made was that the block testing fee MIGHT be moved to a later stage of redress so the homeowner wont have to pay this up front.

I would hope this is just their opening position but it sounds like a Dublin protest will be needed.

Malcolm Noonan - Green Party "Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage" - Junior Minister over Local Government - i.e. County Councils.
Up to 2020, he was a county councillor in Kilkenny.

The full minster is Darragh O'Brien FF, Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

So looks like they are sending the junior Minister out to say no. This is bad. It's not even a "we'll look at it"

Thing is not to attack these people personally. You must play the ball, not the man, or you loose.

Invite them to Donegal, they get to stay for a nice weekend with the Mrs in good Donegal hotel, all expense paid by the taxpayer, and more importantly, they should then get to meet with some of the families effected to get the real story, and go through all the figures. It all goes towards keeping the pressure on in the right way.

The Taoisigh Michel Martin, and also Paschal Donohoe, Minister of Finance, also needs to be worked on.

Here's some of it on Highland :

https://www.highlandradio.com/2021/05/26/dail-hears-questions-over-design-funding-and-operation-of-mica-redress-scheme/

What's also bad is Joe McHugh seeming position that moving the "grant" from 90% to 100% will sort everything, it won't that's only one of many problems with the "grant", and is a gross oversimplification of the problem.

malinheader

Swindled wrote: »

Malcolm Noonan - Green Party "Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage" - Junior Minister over Local Government - i.e. County Councils.
Up to 2020, he was a county councillor in Kilkenny.

The full minster is Darragh O'Brien FF, Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

So looks like they are sending the junior Minister out to say no. This is bad. It's not even a "we'll look at it"

Thing is not to attack these people personally. You must play the ball, not the man, or you loose.

Invite them to Donegal, they get to stay for a nice weekend with the Mrs in good Donegal hotel, all expense paid by the taxpayer, and more importantly, they should then get to meet with some of the families effected to get the real story, and go through all the figures. It all goes towards keeping the pressure on in the right way.

The Taoisigh Michel Martin, and also Paschal Donohoe, Minister of Finance, also needs to be worked on.

Here's some of it on Highland :

https://www.highlandradio.com/2021/05/26/dail-hears-questions-over-design-funding-and-operation-of-mica-redress-scheme/

What's also bad is Joe McHugh seeming position that moving the "grant" from 90% to 100% will sort everything, it won't that's only one of many problems with the "grant", and is a gross oversimplification of the problem.

Not wanting to sound condescending or flippant but was there many who really thought the protest up in Donegal would have an impact on Dublins thoughts on the mica issue.
We have to face the facts that we are treated as second class citizens and always have been.
I seriously think the protest will have to be taken to Dublin and get alot more disruptive even to get a mention on our national news and have any hope of getting proper justice for the people who's homes are destroyed.
On another serious note, will it take a family to be seriously hurt or worse when one of these houses finally collapses before the government decides to take it seriously.

Penfailed

Protest in Dublin planned for either the 9th or the 15th of June.

MrMusician18

malinheader wrote: »

Not wanting to sound condescending or flippant but was there many who really thought the protest up in Donegal would have an impact on Dublins thoughts on the mica issue.
We have to face the facts that we are treated as second class citizens and always have been.
I seriously think the protest will have to be taken to Dublin and get alot more disruptive even to get a mention on our national news and have any hope of getting proper justice for the people who's homes are destroyed.
On another serious note, will it take a family to be seriously hurt or worse when one of these houses finally collapses before the government decides to take it seriously.

Why is this the States problem though? Legally they have no liability, so any form of compensation could be considered generous.

Swindled

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Why is this the States problem though? Legally they have no liability, so any form of compensation could be considered generous.

It's a fair question if you don't know the details and background.

To make a long story very short :

The state does have liability, and they know it, they didn't set up the existing scheme, and the Pyrite address scheme out of the goodness of their heart.

Go after the quarries you say, I agree, except given the sums of money involved all these quarries do is declare bankruptcy and start again under a new name, and use a different set of family members as directors. They are then a completely brand new and separate legal entity.

The regulations state you are not allowed to use unfit aggregate for construction.
Yet despite these regulations they are never enforced , quarries are never inspected for this , or asked for adequate proof of compliance by the authorities and are allowed to operate and granted licences anyway, and get planning for whatever quarry development and expansion they like.

(Yet you can't even run a coffee shop without rigorous inspections for food safety [rightly so] yet quarries can produce materials used in millions worth of construction with no oversight. Irish governments have always had a cosy relationship with the large players/developers in the construction industry)

The government has been utterly negligent with regard to enforcement, and compliance with their own rules and procedure. Hence the reason the government had to fund the Pyrite redress scheme for Leinster, and covered ALL the costs incurred by the thousands of homeowners there.

And by the way, this can happen all over again elsewhere in Ireland, from crumbling blockwork, to Priory hall style fire safety issues, to the Schools recently having fire safety issues, if the government don't start enforcement of building regulations.

But as we know Irish people outside Leinster, especially those from Donegal are considered sub-citizens.

jj880

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Why is this the States problem though? Legally they have no liability, so any form of compensation could be considered generous.

House owners did get together and tried to take the block manufacturer to court. Were told as the old company was shut down and they are now legally a different company (tweaked the name slightly) the house owners would get nothing. Genuine question: who's problem do you think it should be?

Edit: just noticed Swindled's response.

chasingpaper

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Why is this the States problem though? Legally they have no liability, so any form of compensation could be considered generous.

The state has regulations around defective building materials.
The state failed to enforce those regulations allowing rouge companies to self certify.
The state legislation also allows these companies to dissolve when the damage comes to light.
The state can't pursue the companies and their insurance because they don't have appropriate legislation in place.

So it is the state's problem because they are culpable through negligence.
Hopefully this is the last time this happens, because there is still no real enforcement of building standards and no consequences for those who don't comply with regulations.

They have also set precedence in pyrite scheme which is the same issue of defective building materials.

Swindled

And don't think your free and clear of Mica / Pyrite elsewhere in the country, these are very prevalent minerals, less severe cases can take years to show up, but are equally serious / deadly over the long term. Meanwhile quarries all over Ireland are still carrying on the exact same way the problem quarries here did / are.

listermint

chasingpaper wrote: »

The state has regulations around defective building materials.
The state failed to enforce those regulations allowing rouge companies to self certify.
The state legislation also allows these companies to dissolve when the damage comes to light.
The state can't pursue the companies and their insurance because they don't have appropriate legislation in place.

So it is the state's problem because they are culpable through negligence.
Hopefully this is the last time this happens, because there is still no real enforcement of building standards and no consequences for those who don't comply with regulations.

They have also set precedence in pyrite scheme which is the same issue of defective building materials.

Has negligence been demonstrated in a court though? There was legislation in place just because it didn't cover all its basis doesn't mean it didn't exist in some form.

So it is a fair question to ask why the responsibility for full redress rests with the state . Neither post that answered the question actually dealth with that tbh.

Swindled

listermint wrote: »

Has negligence been demonstrated in a court though? There was legislation in place just because it didn't cover all its basis doesn't mean it didn't exist in some form.

So it is a fair question to ask why the responsibility for full redress rests with the state . Neither post that answered the question actually dealth with that tbh.

I don't know the details but I believe the states own legal advice was they are on the hook for their negligence, and they will fair out even worse in the EU courts (and may still do if they don't compensate properly), hence the Pyrite scheme for Leinster, and now a lesser sub standard scheme for Donegal / Mayo.

At the minute the people have been extremely peaceful and patient over this, despite people even taking their own lives over it. People can and will only take so much, and we are not taking a few people hundred here, where it can be got away with, we are talking thousands.

Now some genuine and fair questions for you : (1) Who should pay, (2) Why should they pay it (3) How do they pay it ?

chasingpaper

listermint wrote: »

Has negligence been demonstrated in a court though? There was legislation in place just because it didn't cover all its basis doesn't mean it didn't exist in some form.

So it is a fair question to ask why the responsibility for full redress rests with the state . Neither post that answered the question actually dealth with that tbh.

The state has regulations, specific to materials used in concrete blocks, which it failed to enforce.

It would be preferable for us all if the state could pursue the suppliers and their insurance. But this is where I think the legislation on companies in certain industries needs to be addressed.
The state and homeowners cannot take action against the suppliers, this is a failure of legislation.

MrMusician18

chasingpaper wrote: »

The state has regulations, specific to materials used in concrete blocks, which it failed to enforce.

It would be preferable for us all if the state could pursue the suppliers and their insurance. But this is where I think the legislation on companies in certain industries needs to be addressed.
The state and homeowners cannot take action against the suppliers, this is a failure of legislation.

The state has standards and regulations but a failure to enforce them doesn't draw liability on the State. Take for example, something which you might be familiar with in Donegal, Jimmy thundering down the road at 200kmh and plows through Mary's garden wall. The state didn't enforce its speeding regulation but it has no liability for fixing Mary's garden

Blocks are tested yes, and standards exist, but the State doesn't and never did attract a liability for when standards are not met. That's true for building regulations or any other. And when you think about it, how can it unless it has inspectors at every corner.

The only reason a compensation scheme exists is political and the fact that the state would probably end up housing many of them anyway. This was true of pyrite too. The beef the homeowners have is with the companies that supplied/built the houses and those builders should be chasing the block suppliers.

malinheader

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The state has standards and regulations but a failure to enforce them doesn't draw liability on the State. Take for example, something which you might be familiar with in Donegal, Jimmy thundering down the road at 200kmh and plows through Mary's garden wall. The state didn't enforce its speeding regulation but it has no liability for fixing Mary's garden

Blocks are tested yes, and standards exist, but the State doesn't and never did attract a liability for when standards are not met. That's true for building regulations or any other. And when you think about it, how can it unless it has inspectors at every corner.

The only reason a compensation scheme exists is political and the fact that the state would probably end up housing many of them anyway. This was true of pyrite too. The beef the homeowners have is with the companies that supplied/built the houses and those builders should be chasing the block suppliers.

You should of mentioned the high number of covid cases when getting your dig about 200 mph.
Wouldn't expect anything different to be honest.

MrMusician18

malinheader wrote: »

You should of mentioned the high number of covid cases when getting your dig about 200 mph.
Wouldn't expect anything different to be honest.

Nothing to refute my point I note. The fact is that this scheme is being run for political and social solidarity reasons not because of a legal liability on behalf of the State. The State could turn around tomorrow and say that this is a civil matter between the homeowners, builders and block suppliers and step completely back from it, and there is nothing legally the homeowners could do about it.

If the homeowners sued the State for negligence they would lose. That's not to say I don't have sympathy for the homeowners, I very much do. They've done nothing wrong but have been wronged, however it's not the State that's wronged them.

jj880

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Nothing to refute my point I note.

Bit rich this considering you ignored the fact the block suppliers cant be taken to court as it stands and then stated the block suppliers should be taken to court.

Try again.

Who's problem should this be?

Swindled

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Nothing to refute my point I note. The fact is that this scheme is being run for political and social solidarity reasons not because of a legal liability on behalf of the State. The State could turn around tomorrow and say that this is a civil matter between the homeowners, builders and block suppliers and step completely back from it, and there is nothing legally the homeowners could do about it.

If the homeowners sued the State for negligence they would lose. That's not to say I don't have sympathy for the homeowners, I very much do. They've done nothing wrong but have been wronged, however it's not the State that's wronged them.

So the state are doing it out of the kindness of their heart, and they just feel like being kinder to those in Leinster with Pyrite, than those in Donegal and Mayo with Mica/Pyrite, and they got no legal advice on it. Got it.

You'd like your points refuted ? No problem. In that case now some genuine and fair questions for you, one by one, in your view :

(1) Who should pay ?
(2) Why should they pay it ?
(3) How do they pay it ?
(4) Who houses the homeless families (dogs in the street), who can't afford alternative accommodation and housing, when they have to leave a derelict dangerous house they are still paying a mortgage on ?
(5) Who pays for safely securing the dangerous houses that can't be lived in ?
(6) How does the sate prevent it from happening again ? (They've done nothing to do so )

NIMAN

Surely the fact that the State sorted out the Dublin pyrite issue puts them on the hook ?

How could they defend sorting one set of citizens and not another?

Swindled

malinheader wrote: »

You should of mentioned the high number of covid cases when getting your dig about 200 mph.
Wouldn't expect anything different to be honest.

I suppose they think their sly personal remarks are clever, says a lot more about them and their lack of any decent arguments, than the families effected that's for sure.