Is this a common attitude towards fatherhood in Ireland?

karen42

I'm under 30 and I'm not from Ireland. My in-laws are Irish and live sort of on the countryside (about 1 hr from Dublin).

My husband is 1 of 8 and most of his siblings are over 40 and his dad is 70. His dad was not home much, just 'put money on the table', and did little to no housework or childcare etc.

Where I am from there are not too many modern-day dads (under 40) who are content to just be 'a hands-off provider'. Even if they are the family breadwinner they still strive to be quite involved with their kids and spend time with them. It's mostly seen as a joint-responsibility to raise children and a dad is a co-parent, not an inadequate babysitter 'giving mum a break'.

My in-laws seem to still follow the outdated view of fatherhood. Mum stays home for decades, does all the childcare, all the cleaning, and the fathers would be completely clueless and probably never changed a nappy in their life. I can't fathom why any woman would want to be with a man who is not an equal partner. I find it quite contradictory that they are also in a cohabitation situation with the children's fathers and there are multiple fathers.

Unfortunately, my in-laws have passed on their view of fatherhood to their kids and often when they visit us they say things like 'oh he's probably used to cleaning by now' as if cleaning was only a female responsibility. They often assume I'll be the one to make dinner and that my husband would need help minding his own daughter.

Is this a common thing in Ireland? To hold these views?

L1011

karen42 wrote: »

Is this a common thing in Ireland? To hold these views?

30 years ago, yes. Now its not that common at all. In rural areas there'd still be slightly more people with that idea than in urban areas.

EdgeCase

Definitely not common. Your in-laws sound rather like they're lost in a bygone era.

Most dads I know, including my own (and I haven't been a toddler since the 1980s) were very involved and hands on.

Even my grandad was very involved in my upbringing and played an extremely positive role in my childhood.

Current generation dads tend to be very, very involved. I'd know several who are the primary children rearers. Most take a very active part in their kids lives - at least any dads I know.

I wouldn't agree with the urban Vs rural divide on that either. There are plenty of rural households where parents are far more available than they would be in urban areas due to working near to home.

I'd actually say there's nearly a stigma these days attached to not being seen to be very involved as a dad. Most guys I know are fiercely proud of being good dads.

splinter65

You were misfortunate OP to find one of the few remaining backward archaic inherently stupid clans of this kind left in the country.
They are uneducated ignorant clod hoppers and I’m genuinely sorry for you that you’ve landed yourself amongst them.
Give back as good as you get in the smart remarks. They won’t like it but plus side is they might bugger off and leave you alone

Vote4Napoleon

splinter65 wrote:

You were misfortunate OP to find one of the few remaining backward archaic inherently stupid clans of this kind left in the country. They are uneducated ignorant clod hoppers and I’m genuinely sorry for you that you’ve landed yourself amongst them. Give back as good as you get in the smart remarks. They won’t like it but plus side is they might bugger off and leave you alone

People with such an attitude aren't necessarily "clod hoppers" it works for some couples. Some of the most intelligent people I know have a very minimal education and I know highly educated people who are downright fools. My father worked outside the house and my mother reared us and we all turned out fine. I have 1 aunt who's husband was very involved with their kids and he would drive her round the bend with his input.

EverythingGood

L1011 wrote: »

30 years ago, yes. Now its not that common at all. In rural areas there'd still be slightly more people with that idea than in urban areas.

What do you base that on?

Pauliedragon

I know a girl who has to arrange a babysitter on Saturdays if she wants go meet her friends even though the husband' is sitting at home drinking beer watching sport with his buddies.

splinter65

splinter65 wrote: »

You were misfortunate OP to find one of the few remaining backward archaic inherently stupid clans of this kind left in the country.
They are uneducated ignorant clod hoppers and I’m genuinely sorry for you that you’ve landed yourself amongst them.
Give back as good as you get in the smart remarks. They won’t like it but plus side is they might bugger off and leave you alone

I think that my clodhopping etc accusation stems from the fact that this posters in laws apparently think that it’s entirely appropriate to voice their unasked for opinion on this couples marriage and family life by passing unhelpful critical remarks.
Totally inexcusable

Graces7

any thoughts re the seemingly high numbers of one-parent families where the father is apparently absent?

Squatter

Graces7 wrote: »

any thoughts re the seemingly high numbers of one-parent families where the father is apparently absent?

In fairness, the father was there when it really mattered to him, i.e. when he was achieving orgasm. The subsequent offspring was merely an incidental by-product of the act and thus of no real concern to him.

Pissartist

Squatter wrote: »

In fairness, the father was there when it really mattered to him, i.e. when he was achieving orgasm. The subsequent offspring was merely an incidental by-product of the act and thus of no real concern to him.

This is offensive to any single dad doing his best, there are also a lot of fathers who are not given the chance or access to their kids due to their mother who holds all the rights by law. It's this view that keeps men classed as the second parent.

Igotadose

Begreffer wrote: »

It is disturbingly high in Ireland and it will ensure enormous economic inequality in future years.

Seems like Ireland needs some laws guaranteeing income for the abandoned partner, alimony, child support, whatever. Coming from the US, the number of women whose partner has disappeared and doesn't provide a cent of care is astounding. And even if there are such laws, they need enforcement - garnishing wages, fines, imprisonment.

At least today a woman in Ireland can choose to not have a child with someone who is going to fly. I suspect one can tell pretty early on.

Skihunta13

Begreffer wrote: »

It is disturbingly high in Ireland and it will ensure enormous economic inequality in future years.

Its a career choice in a lot of cases!

sexmag

Squatter wrote: »

In fairness, the father was there when it really mattered to him, i.e. when he was achieving orgasm. The subsequent offspring was merely an incidental by-product of the act and thus of no real concern to him.

What an utterly ridiculous comment.

Many single fathers are fighting tooth and nail ti see their children and their are up against a wall as mother automatically have all the rights, that coupled with ant agro from the mothers part leads to long drawn out investigations by the likes of TUSLA etc.

Take your man hating attitude out of here,it has no place in modern society

sexmag

Igotadose wrote: »

Seems like Ireland needs some laws guaranteeing income for the abandoned partner, alimony, child support, whatever. Coming from the US, the number of women whose partner has disappeared and doesn't provide a cent of care is astounding. And even if there are such laws, they need enforcement - garnishing wages, fines, imprisonment.

At least today a woman in Ireland can choose to not have a child with someone who is going to fly. I suspect one can tell pretty early on.

You obviously aren't familiar with the family courts in Ireland. Men are brought to court to pay maintenance as standard, all the mother needs to do is file an application

strandroad

Begreffer wrote: »

It is disturbingly high in Ireland and it will ensure enormous economic inequality in future years.

There is no incentive for couples to conceive responsibly in a stable relationship planned for long term. The mother knows she'll be supported by the state and in some cases children will actually help her secure housing and income. The father knows that his responsibility legally ends with child support which he is often not chased for as it's too much trouble in the light of the above. Each child comes with monthly allowance too. If you're not into stability because it's how you were brought up yourself why not to go to town.

splinter65

Graces7 wrote: »

any thoughts re the seemingly high numbers of one-parent families where the father is apparently absent?

My thoughts are entirely for the children abandoned unloved by their fathers and how totally crushing it must be as youre growing up and realizing that your biological father thinks that both you and your mother aren’t worth a tuppeny damn to him.
Totally unnatural.

splinter65

Pissartist wrote: »

This is offensive to any single dad doing his best, there are also a lot of fathers who are not given the chance or access to their kids due to their mother who holds all the rights by law. It's this view that keeps men classed as the second parent.

We are not talking about “single dads doing his best”.
Couples split up, for varying reasons. Some men are good and do their level best to fight to be in their child’s life often with huge opposition from the mother and her family.
We are talking about serial shaggers who have sex with girls who become pregnant when they have no intention of having any role in the baby’s life.

splinter65

sexmag wrote: »

What an utterly ridiculous comment.

Many single fathers are fighting tooth and nail ti see their children and their are up against a wall as mother automatically have all the rights, that coupled with ant agro from the mothers part leads to long drawn out investigations by the likes of TUSLA etc.

Take your man hating attitude out of here,it has no place in modern society

....and many men have sex with women and have no interest in what the consequences are. They ignore maintenance orders with no consequences to them and move merrily on to the next woman without a care in the world.
I am close to a young man of 21 who has just fathered his 3rd child with 3 different mothers. He has no contact with the first two now despite him taking the mother’s to court to set up access and guardianship because he doesn’t turn up for any arranged access and wants to turn up at their homes randomly often very late at night.
He’s now split with this latest girl before his baby’s 6 week check up, apparently she’s “frying his head”. He wanted to go on the “sesh” for St Patrick’s Day. She wasn’t happy.
He’s on the dole so no maintenance.
The girls pick these guys and sleep with them, low self esteem, immaturity no reason not to. So sad.

Still waters

Squatter wrote: »

In fairness, the father was there when it really mattered to him, i.e. when he was achieving orgasm. The subsequent offspring was merely an incidental by-product of the act and thus of no real concern to him.

And if women showed a little more maturity in picking sexual partners with whom to have unprotected sex with then maybe more women wouldn't be left high and dry holding the child, needless to say the guy with the neck tattoo, no job who wears sports clothes as his daily attire, isn't the ideal candidate to win father of the year, a little more personal responsibility from women who let the first scum bag who smiles at them to mount up wouldn't go amiss

Squatter

Pissartist wrote: »

This is offensive to any single dad doing his best, there are also a lot of fathers who are not given the chance or access to their kids due to their mother who holds all the rights by law. It's this view that keeps men classed as the second parent.

Twisting an opinion to suit your agenda - well done, cry me a river!

Unfortunately, in the real world, reality is frequently offensive and there's not really very much that you or I can do about it.

Squatter

sexmag wrote: »

You obviously aren't familiar with the family courts in Ireland. Men are brought to court to pay maintenance as standard, all the mother needs to do is file an application

Of course bringing a man to court for maintenance and actually receiving the maintenance awarded are two very different things.

Pissartist

Squatter wrote: »

Twisting an opinion to suit your agenda - well done, cry me a river!

Unfortunately, in the real world, reality is frequently offensive and there's not really very much that you or I can do about it.

I didn't twist anything I just stated your post was offensive, and it was.

sexmag

Squatter wrote: »

Of course bringing a man to court for maintenance and actually receiving the maintenance awarded are two very different things.

Well being a person who's been through the courts I've seen many people jailed for not paying maintenance and for denying access so it happens but again that doesn't suit your agenda there now does it

Jessie1965

I live in rural Catholic part of the country. A lot of good marriages, both working in good jobs. Irish dads always cared about their children and grandchildren, even if conservative in viewpoint.
Lazy men find lies about a mythical past to try and prevent criticism of pure laziness.
My g g grandfather played tug of war with his grandkids one of whom was my grandad in early 1900's in a rural Catholic area of our lovely country.
Irish = hardworking, committed to a future for the family and friends.
Don't listen to BS from lazy men or their mammies.
Reprove the sinner, point out to him in a one to one.
Know your own worth to him. You're worth a lot to him.

Igotadose

This article seems to indicate that despite mechanisms in place, child maintenance isn't paid, child poverty in lone parent settings is high and the law is not being enforced. From 2017: https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/maintenance-defaulters-we-have-no-legal-remedies-for-parents-who-refuse-to-pay-3479857-Jul2017/

among other tidbits, apparently Revenue cannot garnishee wages, so a defaulter (much more likely to be a man) can avoid payment. Likewise, if the father is on welfare, no payments are made. And, if the father ignores the court order, the mother must pursue it through what the article states is a hostile court system. And a single parent is much more likely to be living in poverty, as are the children in single-parent households.

An important point in the paper that article links to:"Ireland has no state agency with responsibility for child maintenance payments."

This means it's up to the individuals to work it out. In other countries, the State does the 'heavy lifting' of getting the money from the person not paying, through wage deduction, or even paying for it directly (the State) and getting it from the non-payer

So, I guess I think that there are laws in place to reduce this problem in Ireland, but they're being flaunted and its very difficult to get maintenance from a partner, when the partner doesn't want to pay it. They can, in fact, feck off and wait for you to chase them down through the courts.

splinter65

When you look back on the whole “abandoned mother and child” issue over I suppose 150 years or more, we’ve never ever forced men to be accountable for the seed they spill.
Every single solitary Tuam baby had a father. Every baby in Roscrea. Every woman in the Magdalene laundry had produced a baby in a joint exercise with a man. Where were the fathers of these babies? Who were the fathers and why does no one EVER to this day blame them for the fate of both their children and the children’s mothers?

dartboardio

Very old fashioned. But its still common id say just less so..

In rural areas more so and some in cities

Suppose it depends on the family. My granny had to quit work when she married so was a housewife for a few years then back to work so the both of them were working.

Fairly outdated though that typical housewife and the father goes out to work.. Although now i suppose they try to call it 'stay at home mum' as if its any different than a housewife

splinter65

dartboardio wrote: »

Very old fashioned. But its still common id say just less so..

In rural areas more so and some in cities

Suppose it depends on the family. My granny had to quit work when she married so was a housewife for a few years then back to work so the both of them were working.

Fairly outdated though that typical housewife and the father goes out to work.. Although now i suppose they try to call it 'stay at home mum' as if its any different than a housewife

Is there something wrong with being at home minding kids and doing housework?

sexmag

Igotadose wrote: »

This article seems to indicate that despite mechanisms in place, child maintenance isn't paid, child poverty in lone parent settings is high and the law is not being enforced. From 2017: https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/maintenance-defaulters-we-have-no-legal-remedies-for-parents-who-refuse-to-pay-3479857-Jul2017/

among other tidbits, apparently Revenue cannot garnishee wages, so a defaulter (much more likely to be a man) can avoid payment. Likewise, if the father is on welfare, no payments are made. And, if the father ignores the court order, the mother must pursue it through what the article states is a hostile court system. And a single parent is much more likely to be living in poverty, as are the children in single-parent households.

An important point in the paper that article links to:"Ireland has no state agency with responsibility for child maintenance payments."

This means it's up to the individuals to work it out. In other countries, the State does the 'heavy lifting' of getting the money from the person not paying, through wage deduction, or even paying for it directly (the State) and getting it from the non-payer

So, I guess I think that there are laws in place to reduce this problem in Ireland, but they're being flaunted and its very difficult to get maintenance from a partner, when the partner doesn't want to pay it. They can, in fact, feck off and wait for you to chase them down through the courts.

I can't agree with this, I was on social welfare a of 190 a week and was ordered to pay 60 euro a week. Madness,I appealed and it was reduced to 30. In aware of another man who was a total piece of S who has an attachment of earnings to him and his maintenance is taken directly from his wages before he even gets it.

Wanderer78

splinter65 wrote:

Is there something wrong with being at home minding kids and doing housework?

Should women be the default minder, and since its a full time job, should they be paid accordingly?

This is it

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Should women be the default minder, and since its a full time job, should they be paid accordingly?

Paid by who?

helimachoptor

splinter65 wrote: »

Is there something wrong with being at home minding kids and doing housework?

It's a far tougher job than going to work tbh.

*dad with 3 kids

JustAThought

Igotadose wrote: »

Seems like Ireland needs some laws guaranteeing income for the abandoned partner, alimony, child support, whatever. Coming from the US, the number of women whose partner has disappeared and doesn't provide a cent of care is astounding. And even if there are such laws, they need enforcement - garnishing wages, fines, imprisonment.

.

Abandoned? Its a way of life and strategic game plan for many. Supported by a lazy government who facilitarates and rewards them and refuses to provide the resources to police their fraudelent claims or make their partners pay for their offspring by stopping paymwets at source from their salaries or dole - or investigating their incomes. iIn many casrs there is an institutional intergenerational refusal to work or pay your way in society. Abandoned my Áras. Ask the CEO of the so called Dublin' homeless ' authority -the formula is well known and utterly abused.

And for the no doubt long gone OP - you married into an old (aged) traditional Catholic family - 8 kids 70 year old in-laws - did you expect them to change ?! Habbits of a lifetime are rarely changed by in-laws and that model of a father providing and a hardworking stay at home mother is hardly unusual -nor the concept that one goes out to work and brings home the £, and the others work is the home and the children with everything financially provided for. Not an unusual model.

Igotadose

JustAThought wrote: »

Abandoned? Its a way of life and strategic game plan for many. Supported by a lazy government who facilitarates and rewards them and refuses to provide the resources to police their fraudelent claims or make their partners pay for their offspring by stopping paymwets at source from their salaries or dole - or investigating their incomes. iIn many casrs there is an institutional intergenerational refusal to work or pay your way in society. Abandoned my Áras. Ask the CEO of the so called Dublin' homeless ' authority -the formula is well know and utterly abused.

Unfortunately without data I can't confirm what you're saying, but every governmental system has corruption. Sadly, the government here have abdicated the responsibility to the courts, which isn't working and is very costly. Having a well managed government agency (preceding might be an oxymoron!) could help. But, what's happening here isn't working, and individuals going through the courts doesn't scale.

JustAThought

Facilitating lifelong dole dossers and encouraging children to fecklessly have children with the guarantee of a 3 bedroom house for e20 a week for life with all services provided free of charge by the hardworking poor & that beside their mother is unacceptable & the driving force behind the so called homeless figures.

As for the courts - if the fathers were required to be named on the birth certs they could be simply through revenue or their dole payments be required to pay for their children by the payments being stopped at source. You can be sure there would be far less 4x4's or 3x3's if the fathers had to uphold the cost for 18 years of their penis rather than making other fathers married and/or comitted to their children and other hardworking families pay for their unwanted children and casually discarded responsibilities. Its not a complex matter to organise. They did it overnight with water charges and house tax.

splinter65

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Should women be the default minder, and since its a full time job, should they be paid accordingly?

Who said that women are the default minder? Not me. If you decide as a couple to have children then you are accepting that they will have to be cared for. By one of their parents or by another appropriate adult. If you want to have a habitable home and home cooked meals then you accept that one of you or both of you will have to share those chores, or pay someone else to do it.
It’s entirely your choice. It’s all your desicion.
Who on earth do you think should be paying an adult to mind their own children and clean their own house?!?

splinter65

helimachoptor wrote: »

It's a far tougher job than going to work tbh.

*dad with 3 kids

It sure is.

Igotadose

JustAThought wrote: »

As for the courts - if the fathers were required to be named on the birth certs they could be simply through revenue or their dole payments be required to pay for their children by the payments being stopped at source. You can be sure there would be far less 4x4's or 3x3's if the fathers had to uphold the cost for 18 years of their penis rather than making other fathers married and/or comitted to their children and other hardworking families pay for their unwanted children and casually discarded responsibilities. Its not a complex matter to organise. They did it overnight with water charges and house tax.

Amazing that they're not named on birth certs here. Is it optional or not required? Seems like it certainly *can* be entered, bogus if it isn't required: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/after_your_baby_is_born/registering_birth_your_baby.html

JustAThought

The law was changed a number of years ago to not require a fathers name on the birth cert. Strike one for fathers rights, childrens rights and open house on a lifelong gateway to social welfare fraud.

splinter65

Igotadose wrote: »

Amazing that they're not named on birth certs here. Is it optional or not required? Seems like it certainly *can* be entered, bogus if it isn't required: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/after_your_baby_is_born/registering_birth_your_baby.html

It’s not required. If a woman isn’t legally married she can’t enter a mans name on a birth cert unless he gives his permission.

splinter65

JustAThought wrote: »

The law was changed a number of years ago to not require a fathers name on the birth cert. Strike one for fathers rights, childrens rights and open house on a lifelong gateway to social welfare fraud.

You never needed a fathers name on a birth cert.

sbsquarepants

karen42 wrote: »

. I find it quite contradictory that they are also in a cohabitation situation with the children's fathers and there are multiple fathers.

I have no idea what this means? Sounds like some hippy commune!

realdanbreen

L1011 wrote: »

30 years ago, yes. Now its not that common at all. In rural areas there'd still be slightly more people with that idea than in urban areas.

Where are you getting this big rural/urban divide ? If you are going on stereotypes then that's like me saying that women are more likely to suffer domestic violence in an urban area.

FishOnABike

Squatter wrote: »

Of course bringing a man to court for maintenance and actually receiving the maintenance awarded are two very different things.

Maintenance can be attached to earnings so that it is automatically taken from income at source, especially if there is a history of missing payments.

Alternatively maintenance can be directed to be paid through the district court office. If payments are not made the court service will issue a summons on the defaulter.

splinter65

FishOnABike wrote: »

Maintenance can be attached to earnings so that it is automatically taken from income at source, especially if there is a history of missing payments.

Alternatively maintenance can be directed to be paid through the district court office. If payments are not made the court service will issue a summons on the defaulter.

Neither of these things ever happen.

BuboBubo

splinter65 wrote: »

You never needed a fathers name on a birth cert.

And unfortunately sometimes the mother doesn't know who the father of the child is

My own dad was very hands-off, as were his parents. But my brother is very hands-on with his 3 kids. Things have changed drastically over the past 20 years, and that's a really good thing.

Squatter

FishOnABike wrote: »

Maintenance can be attached to earnings so that it is automatically taken from income at source, especially if there is a history of missing payments.

Alternatively maintenance can be directed to be paid through the district court office. If payments are not made the court service will issue a summons on the defaulter.

Phew - that's grand so, evidently there's absolutely no problem in Ireland with single mothers not receiving maintenance payments from their sperm donors!

Many thanks for putting us right on that one!

sexmag

splinter65 wrote: »

Neither of these things ever happen.

False, they do and I've seen them happen.

You should correct your statement to "Neither of these have happened in a case I have heard of"

rebelwithcause

sexmag wrote: »

Well being a person who's been through the courts I've seen many people jailed for not paying maintenance and for denying access so it happens but again that doesn't suit your agenda there now does it

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.breakingnews.ie/ireland/10-days-jail-for-dad-accused-of-not-paying-enough-maintenance-826118.html



Really?? Many people jailed?? There was only 1 person jailed in 2017 for not paying maintenance, yet over 400 for not paying a TV licence.

Attachment of earnings means multiple trips to court and also knowing the Father's employer. If he changes employer, the order is null and void. On the other hand, revenue can stop property tax directly from employers without a court order and doesn't need to attach it solely to one employer.

Oh and under the Civil Registration Act 2014, unmarried Mother's must name Father's. Even prior to this though, 80% of Father's names were on birth certs of children born to unmarried parents.

Makes you wonder, how we can have a more efficient collection system for TV licences and property tax. Anyone would think we don't care about children as much as property tax.

Graces7

Squatter wrote: »

In fairness, the father was there when it really mattered to him, i.e. when he was achieving orgasm. The subsequent offspring was merely an incidental by-product of the act and thus of no real concern to him.

fairness to whom?