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Is this a common attitude towards fatherhood in Ireland?

  • #2
    Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭✭ karen42


    I'm under 30 and I'm not from Ireland. My in-laws are Irish and live sort of on the countryside (about 1 hr from Dublin).

    My husband is 1 of 8 and most of his siblings are over 40 and his dad is 70. His dad was not home much, just 'put money on the table', and did little to no housework or childcare etc.

    Where I am from there are not too many modern-day dads (under 40) who are content to just be 'a hands-off provider'. Even if they are the family breadwinner they still strive to be quite involved with their kids and spend time with them. It's mostly seen as a joint-responsibility to raise children and a dad is a co-parent, not an inadequate babysitter 'giving mum a break'.

    My in-laws seem to still follow the outdated view of fatherhood. Mum stays home for decades, does all the childcare, all the cleaning, and the fathers would be completely clueless and probably never changed a nappy in their life. I can't fathom why any woman would want to be with a man who is not an equal partner. I find it quite contradictory that they are also in a cohabitation situation with the children's fathers and there are multiple fathers.

    Unfortunately, my in-laws have passed on their view of fatherhood to their kids and often when they visit us they say things like 'oh he's probably used to cleaning by now' as if cleaning was only a female responsibility. They often assume I'll be the one to make dinner and that my husband would need help minding his own daughter.

    Is this a common thing in Ireland? To hold these views?
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Comments

  • #2


    karen42 wrote: »
    Is this a common thing in Ireland? To hold these views?

    30 years ago, yes. Now its not that common at all. In rural areas there'd still be slightly more people with that idea than in urban areas.


  • #2


    Definitely not common. Your in-laws sound rather like they're lost in a bygone era.

    Most dads I know, including my own (and I haven't been a toddler since the 1980s) were very involved and hands on.

    Even my grandad was very involved in my upbringing and played an extremely positive role in my childhood.

    Current generation dads tend to be very, very involved. I'd know several who are the primary children rearers. Most take a very active part in their kids lives - at least any dads I know.

    I wouldn't agree with the urban Vs rural divide on that either. There are plenty of rural households where parents are far more available than they would be in urban areas due to working near to home.

    I'd actually say there's nearly a stigma these days attached to not being seen to be very involved as a dad. Most guys I know are fiercely proud of being good dads.


  • #2


    You were misfortunate OP to find one of the few remaining backward archaic inherently stupid clans of this kind left in the country.
    They are uneducated ignorant clod hoppers and I’m genuinely sorry for you that you’ve landed yourself amongst them.
    Give back as good as you get in the smart remarks. They won’t like it but plus side is they might bugger off and leave you alone


  • #2


    splinter65 wrote:
    You were misfortunate OP to find one of the few remaining backward archaic inherently stupid clans of this kind left in the country. They are uneducated ignorant clod hoppers and I’m genuinely sorry for you that you’ve landed yourself amongst them. Give back as good as you get in the smart remarks. They won’t like it but plus side is they might bugger off and leave you alone


    People with such an attitude aren't necessarily "clod hoppers" it works for some couples. Some of the most intelligent people I know have a very minimal education and I know highly educated people who are downright fools. My father worked outside the house and my mother reared us and we all turned out fine. I have 1 aunt who's husband was very involved with their kids and he would drive her round the bend with his input.


  • #2


    L1011 wrote: »
    30 years ago, yes. Now its not that common at all. In rural areas there'd still be slightly more people with that idea than in urban areas.

    What do you base that on?


  • #2


    I know a girl who has to arrange a babysitter on Saturdays if she wants go meet her friends even though the husband' is sitting at home drinking beer watching sport with his buddies.


  • #2


    splinter65 wrote: »
    You were misfortunate OP to find one of the few remaining backward archaic inherently stupid clans of this kind left in the country.
    They are uneducated ignorant clod hoppers and I’m genuinely sorry for you that you’ve landed yourself amongst them.
    Give back as good as you get in the smart remarks. They won’t like it but plus side is they might bugger off and leave you alone

    I think that my clodhopping etc accusation stems from the fact that this posters in laws apparently think that it’s entirely appropriate to voice their unasked for opinion on this couples marriage and family life by passing unhelpful critical remarks.
    Totally inexcusable


  • #2


    any thoughts re the seemingly high numbers of one-parent families where the father is apparently absent?


  • #2


    Graces7 wrote: »
    any thoughts re the seemingly high numbers of one-parent families where the father is apparently absent?

    In fairness, the father was there when it really mattered to him, i.e. when he was achieving orgasm. The subsequent offspring was merely an incidental by-product of the act and thus of no real concern to him.


  • #2


    Squatter wrote: »
    In fairness, the father was there when it really mattered to him, i.e. when he was achieving orgasm. The subsequent offspring was merely an incidental by-product of the act and thus of no real concern to him.

    This is offensive to any single dad doing his best, there are also a lot of fathers who are not given the chance or access to their kids due to their mother who holds all the rights by law. It's this view that keeps men classed as the second parent.


  • #2


    Begreffer wrote: »
    It is disturbingly high in Ireland and it will ensure enormous economic inequality in future years.

    Seems like Ireland needs some laws guaranteeing income for the abandoned partner, alimony, child support, whatever. Coming from the US, the number of women whose partner has disappeared and doesn't provide a cent of care is astounding. And even if there are such laws, they need enforcement - garnishing wages, fines, imprisonment.

    At least today a woman in Ireland can choose to not have a child with someone who is going to fly. I suspect one can tell pretty early on.


  • #2


    Begreffer wrote: »
    It is disturbingly high in Ireland and it will ensure enormous economic inequality in future years.

    Its a career choice in a lot of cases!


  • #2


    Squatter wrote: »
    In fairness, the father was there when it really mattered to him, i.e. when he was achieving orgasm. The subsequent offspring was merely an incidental by-product of the act and thus of no real concern to him.

    What an utterly ridiculous comment.

    Many single fathers are fighting tooth and nail ti see their children and their are up against a wall as mother automatically have all the rights, that coupled with ant agro from the mothers part leads to long drawn out investigations by the likes of TUSLA etc.

    Take your man hating attitude out of here,it has no place in modern society


  • #2


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Seems like Ireland needs some laws guaranteeing income for the abandoned partner, alimony, child support, whatever. Coming from the US, the number of women whose partner has disappeared and doesn't provide a cent of care is astounding. And even if there are such laws, they need enforcement - garnishing wages, fines, imprisonment.

    At least today a woman in Ireland can choose to not have a child with someone who is going to fly. I suspect one can tell pretty early on.

    You obviously aren't familiar with the family courts in Ireland. Men are brought to court to pay maintenance as standard, all the mother needs to do is file an application


  • #2


    Begreffer wrote: »
    It is disturbingly high in Ireland and it will ensure enormous economic inequality in future years.

    There is no incentive for couples to conceive responsibly in a stable relationship planned for long term. The mother knows she'll be supported by the state and in some cases children will actually help her secure housing and income. The father knows that his responsibility legally ends with child support which he is often not chased for as it's too much trouble in the light of the above. Each child comes with monthly allowance too. If you're not into stability because it's how you were brought up yourself why not to go to town.


  • #2


    Graces7 wrote: »
    any thoughts re the seemingly high numbers of one-parent families where the father is apparently absent?

    My thoughts are entirely for the children abandoned unloved by their fathers and how totally crushing it must be as youre growing up and realizing that your biological father thinks that both you and your mother aren’t worth a tuppeny damn to him.
    Totally unnatural.


  • #2


    Pissartist wrote: »
    This is offensive to any single dad doing his best, there are also a lot of fathers who are not given the chance or access to their kids due to their mother who holds all the rights by law. It's this view that keeps men classed as the second parent.

    We are not talking about “single dads doing his best”.
    Couples split up, for varying reasons. Some men are good and do their level best to fight to be in their child’s life often with huge opposition from the mother and her family.
    We are talking about serial shaggers who have sex with girls who become pregnant when they have no intention of having any role in the baby’s life.


  • #2


    sexmag wrote: »
    What an utterly ridiculous comment.

    Many single fathers are fighting tooth and nail ti see their children and their are up against a wall as mother automatically have all the rights, that coupled with ant agro from the mothers part leads to long drawn out investigations by the likes of TUSLA etc.

    Take your man hating attitude out of here,it has no place in modern society

    ....and many men have sex with women and have no interest in what the consequences are. They ignore maintenance orders with no consequences to them and move merrily on to the next woman without a care in the world.
    I am close to a young man of 21 who has just fathered his 3rd child with 3 different mothers. He has no contact with the first two now despite him taking the mother’s to court to set up access and guardianship because he doesn’t turn up for any arranged access and wants to turn up at their homes randomly often very late at night.
    He’s now split with this latest girl before his baby’s 6 week check up, apparently she’s “frying his head”. He wanted to go on the “sesh” for St Patrick’s Day. She wasn’t happy.
    He’s on the dole so no maintenance.
    The girls pick these guys and sleep with them, low self esteem, immaturity no reason not to. So sad.


  • #2


    Squatter wrote: »
    In fairness, the father was there when it really mattered to him, i.e. when he was achieving orgasm. The subsequent offspring was merely an incidental by-product of the act and thus of no real concern to him.

    And if women showed a little more maturity in picking sexual partners with whom to have unprotected sex with then maybe more women wouldn't be left high and dry holding the child, needless to say the guy with the neck tattoo, no job who wears sports clothes as his daily attire, isn't the ideal candidate to win father of the year, a little more personal responsibility from women who let the first scum bag who smiles at them to mount up wouldn't go amiss


  • #2


    Pissartist wrote: »
    This is offensive to any single dad doing his best, there are also a lot of fathers who are not given the chance or access to their kids due to their mother who holds all the rights by law. It's this view that keeps men classed as the second parent.

    Twisting an opinion to suit your agenda - well done, cry me a river!

    Unfortunately, in the real world, reality is frequently offensive and there's not really very much that you or I can do about it.


  • #2


    sexmag wrote: »
    You obviously aren't familiar with the family courts in Ireland. Men are brought to court to pay maintenance as standard, all the mother needs to do is file an application

    Of course bringing a man to court for maintenance and actually receiving the maintenance awarded are two very different things.


  • #2


    Squatter wrote: »
    Twisting an opinion to suit your agenda - well done, cry me a river!

    Unfortunately, in the real world, reality is frequently offensive and there's not really very much that you or I can do about it.
    I didn't twist anything I just stated your post was offensive, and it was.


  • #2


    Squatter wrote: »
    Of course bringing a man to court for maintenance and actually receiving the maintenance awarded are two very different things.

    Well being a person who's been through the courts I've seen many people jailed for not paying maintenance and for denying access so it happens but again that doesn't suit your agenda there now does it


  • #2


    I live in rural Catholic part of the country. A lot of good marriages, both working in good jobs. Irish dads always cared about their children and grandchildren, even if conservative in viewpoint.
    Lazy men find lies about a mythical past to try and prevent criticism of pure laziness.
    My g g grandfather played tug of war with his grandkids one of whom was my grandad in early 1900's in a rural Catholic area of our lovely country.
    Irish = hardworking, committed to a future for the family and friends.
    Don't listen to BS from lazy men or their mammies.
    Reprove the sinner, point out to him in a one to one.
    Know your own worth to him. You're worth a lot to him.


  • #2


    This article seems to indicate that despite mechanisms in place, child maintenance isn't paid, child poverty in lone parent settings is high and the law is not being enforced. From 2017: https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/maintenance-defaulters-we-have-no-legal-remedies-for-parents-who-refuse-to-pay-3479857-Jul2017/

    among other tidbits, apparently Revenue cannot garnishee wages, so a defaulter (much more likely to be a man) can avoid payment. Likewise, if the father is on welfare, no payments are made. And, if the father ignores the court order, the mother must pursue it through what the article states is a hostile court system. And a single parent is much more likely to be living in poverty, as are the children in single-parent households.

    An important point in the paper that article links to:"Ireland has no state agency with responsibility for child maintenance payments."

    This means it's up to the individuals to work it out. In other countries, the State does the 'heavy lifting' of getting the money from the person not paying, through wage deduction, or even paying for it directly (the State) and getting it from the non-payer

    So, I guess I think that there are laws in place to reduce this problem in Ireland, but they're being flaunted and its very difficult to get maintenance from a partner, when the partner doesn't want to pay it. They can, in fact, feck off and wait for you to chase them down through the courts.


  • #2


    When you look back on the whole “abandoned mother and child” issue over I suppose 150 years or more, we’ve never ever forced men to be accountable for the seed they spill.
    Every single solitary Tuam baby had a father. Every baby in Roscrea. Every woman in the Magdalene laundry had produced a baby in a joint exercise with a man. Where were the fathers of these babies? Who were the fathers and why does no one EVER to this day blame them for the fate of both their children and the children’s mothers?


  • #2


    Very old fashioned. But its still common id say just less so..

    In rural areas more so and some in cities

    Suppose it depends on the family. My granny had to quit work when she married so was a housewife for a few years then back to work so the both of them were working.

    Fairly outdated though that typical housewife and the father goes out to work.. Although now i suppose they try to call it 'stay at home mum' as if its any different than a housewife


  • #2


    Very old fashioned. But its still common id say just less so..

    In rural areas more so and some in cities

    Suppose it depends on the family. My granny had to quit work when she married so was a housewife for a few years then back to work so the both of them were working.

    Fairly outdated though that typical housewife and the father goes out to work.. Although now i suppose they try to call it 'stay at home mum' as if its any different than a housewife

    Is there something wrong with being at home minding kids and doing housework?


  • #2


    Igotadose wrote: »
    This article seems to indicate that despite mechanisms in place, child maintenance isn't paid, child poverty in lone parent settings is high and the law is not being enforced. From 2017: https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/maintenance-defaulters-we-have-no-legal-remedies-for-parents-who-refuse-to-pay-3479857-Jul2017/

    among other tidbits, apparently Revenue cannot garnishee wages, so a defaulter (much more likely to be a man) can avoid payment. Likewise, if the father is on welfare, no payments are made. And, if the father ignores the court order, the mother must pursue it through what the article states is a hostile court system. And a single parent is much more likely to be living in poverty, as are the children in single-parent households.

    An important point in the paper that article links to:"Ireland has no state agency with responsibility for child maintenance payments."

    This means it's up to the individuals to work it out. In other countries, the State does the 'heavy lifting' of getting the money from the person not paying, through wage deduction, or even paying for it directly (the State) and getting it from the non-payer

    So, I guess I think that there are laws in place to reduce this problem in Ireland, but they're being flaunted and its very difficult to get maintenance from a partner, when the partner doesn't want to pay it. They can, in fact, feck off and wait for you to chase them down through the courts.

    I can't agree with this, I was on social welfare a of 190 a week and was ordered to pay 60 euro a week. Madness,I appealed and it was reduced to 30. In aware of another man who was a total piece of S who has an attachment of earnings to him and his maintenance is taken directly from his wages before he even gets it.


  • #2


    splinter65 wrote:
    Is there something wrong with being at home minding kids and doing housework?


    Should women be the default minder, and since its a full time job, should they be paid accordingly?


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