Licence Conditions

Rifter

Looking for a bit of advice,
Ive been granted a cert for a .308, however theres a condition that I "may not use it to shoot animals and only on an authorised range"

This is fine for now, however next year I had planned on applying for a deer licence,
Will the above condition affect a deer licence application?
Should I ring my FO?

BattleCorp

Rifter wrote: »

Looking for a bit of advice,
Ive been granted a cert for a .308, however theres a condition that I "may not use it to shoot animals and only on an authorised range"

This is fine for now, however next year I had planned on applying for a deer licence,
Will the above condition affect a deer licence application?
Should I ring my FO?

Ring the FO and ask him about it and maybe he/she will be able to give you a steer. All it costs is the price of a phone call.

That said, I doubt that the Gardaí will change your licence to include deer hunting until you actually have the deer licence in your possession.

Not being licenced for the .308 won't affect that application.

Cass

Rifter wrote: »

Will the above condition affect a deer licence application?

Yes, you won't be able to shoot any animals, including deer, with the rifle.

Should I ring my FO?

You can and its a start, but the FO doesn't issue the license the Super does. I would, if it were me, make an appointment to meet the Super before you pay for the license. As soon as you pay the €80 grant fee you accept the terms of the license & conditions.

Try get this done before the 30 day period the grant is valid for expires.

Rifter

Cass wrote: »

Yes, you won't be able to shoot any animals, including deer, with the rifle.

You can and its a start, but the FO doesn't issue the license the Super does. I would, if it were me, make an appointment to meet the Super before you pay for the license. As soon as you pay the €80 grant fee you accept the terms of the license & conditions.

Try get this done before the 30 day period the grant is valid for expires.

Can the super refuse to remove the condition.... ill never be able to get into deer shooting then....

Cass

Yes.

A Super can impose any condition s/he sees fit.

To get the condition removed, or more accurately not have had it in the first place, you needed to apply for deer stalking/hunting when applying for the rifle by ticking the hunting box in section 4.2. If you are not in a position to do that now, then you have no "need" for the rifle for hunting deer.

You can claim you want to shoot foxes with it as well as target shooting on the range but you must submit membership of a gun club or land permissions to support this. If you are not in a position to give either gun club/land permissions then again you have no "need" for the rifle for hunting ANY animals.

As the license is granted under the good reason you sought it for, which i presume is target shooting on a range given the condition, you have two options:

1. Make an appointment to meet the Super, supply the above land/gun club/deer stalking permission, and ask for the condition to be removed.
2. Accept the condition, pay for the license, use the rifle on the range only, wait three years and at renewal time supply the permissions and it'll (hopefully) be renewed under the new good reason(s) you have supplied.

In either scenario once the grant letter is sent to you, you have 30 days from the date its issued to pay for the license or refuse it. I know, and have gotten, the grant letter re-issued but this is not a guarantee so work on the premise you have 30 days. If after the 30 days you have not paid for it and the Super won't meet or won't change his mind you have essentially refused the license.

Rifter

Cass wrote: »

Yes.

A Super can impose any condition s/he sees fit.

To get the condition removed, or more accurately not have had it in the first place, you needed to apply for deer stalking/hunting when applying for the rifle by ticking the hunting box in section 4.2. If you are not in a position to do that now, then you have no "need" for the rifle for hunting deer.

You can claim you want to shoot foxes with it as well as target shooting on the range but you must submit membership of a gun club or land permissions to support this. If you are not in a position to give either gun club/land permissions then again you have no "need" for the rifle for hunting ANY animals.

As the license is granted under the good reason you sought it for, which i presume is target shooting on a range given the condition, you have two options:

1. Make an appointment to meet the Super, supply the above land/gun club/deer stalking permission, and ask for the condition to be removed.
2. Accept the condition, pay for the license, use the rifle on the range only, wait three years and at renewal time supply the permissions and it'll (hopefully) be renewed under the new good reason(s) you have supplied.

In either scenario once the grant letter is sent to you, you have 30 days from the date its issued to pay for the license or refuse it. I know, and have gotten, the grant letter re-issued but this is not a guarantee so work on the premise you have 30 days. If after the 30 days you have not paid for it and the Super won't meet or won't change his mind you have essentially refused the license.

Thanks for the info Cass, ill see if I can get a meeting with the Super!!

Cass

Do. It'll be the best and most definitive answer you'll get.

However one word of caution. If you go to meet the Super without be able to show good reason for needing the rifle for anything other than target shooting you won't be successful. Whether the Super likes shooting, hates shooting, anti gun/progun, etc. won't matter. S/He will base their decision on the law which says you have to sow good reason(s) for requiring the type of gun you seek to license.

Out of curiosity did you tick only target shooting on the FCA1? I assume you provided range membership, etc. to prove this? If you didn't tick hunting, or did not supply any supporting documentation for your good reason of hunting the Super may have dismissed the ticked box.

Rifter

Cass wrote: »

Out of curiosity did you tick only target shooting on the FCA1? I assume you provided range membership, etc. to prove this? If you didn't tick hunting, or did not supply any supporting documentation for your good reason of hunting the Super may have dismissed the ticked box.

I didn't tick the hunting box as I had no deer permissions, as an aside if I wanted a foxing rifle i wouldve went .223

I did join a range as I wanted to take up target shooting and when I could deer hunting. Tbh it never crossed my mind such a condition would be imposed!!

Cass

Rifter wrote: »

I didn't tick the hunting box as I had no deer permissions,

Then the condition was imposed to make sure you did not try to use the rifle for any other purpose other than what you applied for it. Most times this is a given as using the rifle for deer hunting or any hunting without ticking the hunting box would mean you cannot use it for such as you did not apply for the rifle under that reason. IOW its a breach of the condition of your license. Its why i tell people, that can provide range membership & gun club/land permission, to tick both boxes when applying to avoid this pitfall.

as an aside if I wanted a foxing rifle i wouldve went .223

You might be missing my point.

You cannot apply for the rifle as a dual purpose firearm (range and deer staling) because you don't have the necessary license for deer stalking, but as foxes don't require such a a licenses and you had the necessary requirements for the range you COULD have applied for the rifle as both a target rifle and hunting rifle and say it was for foxes. Again you would have to show land permissions whether they were private or through a gun club but it was doable.

I did join a range as I wanted to take up target shooting and when I could deer hunting. Tbh it never crossed my mind such a condition would be imposed!!

Because the licenses are three years, and as said above, you should always apply for a firearm for the purposes you are going to use it for and intend to use it for within that three year period. Same with renewals.

If you applied for the firearm for target shooting and tick the target shooting box, and also apply for hunting by ticking the hunting box and attaching the requisite supporting documentation then that condition would most likely never have been attached.

That means in a year or two or whenever you decide to take up deer stalking you would be free to apply for the deer stalking license. As it stands now if you pay the €80 that condition prevents you from doing so.

On a slightly different note, but still relevant, if the Super agrees to meet but refuses to lift the condition (as said above if you cannot give land permissions/deer license, etc to show you need it for hunting) the only option left to you is to appeal his/her decision via the courts.

Rifter

Cass wrote: »

Then the condition was imposed to make sure you did not try to use the rifle for any other purpose other than what you applied for it. Most times this is a given as using the rifle for deer hunting or any hunting without ticking the hunting box would mean you cannot use it for such as you did not apply for the rifle under that reason. IOW its a breach of the condition of your license. Its why i tell people, that can provide range membership & gun club/land permission, to tick both boxes when applying to avoid this pitfall.

You might be missing my point.

You cannot apply for the rifle as a dual purpose firearm (range and deer staling) because you don't have the necessary license for deer stalking, but as foxes don't require such a a licenses and you had the necessary requirements for the range you COULD have applied for the rifle as both a target rifle and hunting rifle and say it was for foxes. Again you would have to show land permissions whether they were private or through a gun club but it was doable.


Because the licenses are three years, and as said above, you should always apply for a firearm for the purposes you are going to use it for and intend to use it for within that three year period. Same with renewals.

If you applied for the firearm for target shooting and tick the target shooting box, and also apply for hunting by ticking the hunting box and attaching the requisite supporting documentation then that condition would most likely never have been attached.

That means in a year or two or whenever you decide to take up deer stalking you would be free to apply for the deer stalking license. As it stands now if you pay the €80 that condition prevents you from doing so.

On a slightly different note, but still relevant, if the Super agrees to meet but refuses to lift the condition (as said above if you cannot give land permissions/deer license, etc to show you need it for hunting) the only option left to you is to appeal his/her decision via the courts.

Yea, ill just have a meeting and see how I get on, I won't be appealing regardless of the outcome, I just didnt expect the condition tbh. A bit naive I guess.

I'll contact the FO first and go from there,
Worst comes to worst its e years of target shooting and then reapply with the hunting box ticked too

Walter Mittys Brother

Had a few yahoos in my area who joined a range, got .308's & proceeded to shoot rabbits with 'em :eek:

That Super is well clued in I'd say. Some Super's won't grant anything bigger than .223 for foxes I've heard too.

Rifter

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

Had a few yahoos in my area who joined a range, got .308's & proceeded to shoot rabbits with 'em :eek:

That Super is well clued in I'd say. Some Super's won't grant anything bigger than .223 for foxes I've heard too.

Well fair enough Walther and I suppose I can see the logic to the condition.

Walter Mittys Brother

Rifter wrote: »

Well fair enough Walther and I suppose I can see the logic to the condition.

In my experience the few yahoos make it harder for genuine lads. Conditions on the licence are rare BUT I reckon they're gonna become more common.

Rifter

Just an update

When Im good to go for deer shooting, which won't be until next year, I'll have to reapply for a fresh licence. Condition stays until then, not ideal, but Ill take it.

Cheers for the advice/input

BattleCorp

Rifter wrote: »

Just an update

When Im good to go for deer shooting, which won't be until next year, I'll have to reapply for a fresh licence. Condition stays until then, not ideal, but Ill take it.

Cheers for the advice/input

Why not apply now for the deer permit?

Rifter

BattleCorp wrote: »

Why not apply now for the deer permit?

I have no deer permissions at the minute, my intention is to get into deer shooting, but ive to overcome the little hurdle of finding or paying for permission(s)

meathstevie

Rifter wrote: »

Just an update

When Im good to go for deer shooting, which won't be until next year, I'll have to reapply for a fresh licence. Condition stays until then, not ideal, but Ill take it.
all
Cheers for the advice/input

Technicality but I reckon it doesn't necessarily have to be a new firearms certificate if you manage to get a deer licence within the lifetime of the original firearms certificate. I think a substitution, which is free of charge, for a change of use/conditions for possession of the same firearm could be applicable.

All in all the Super who dealt with your application seems to be far from unreasonable, gave you exactly what you asked for and told you to come back when your circumstances changed.

Rifter

meathstevie wrote: »

All in all the Super who dealt with your application seems to be far from unreasonable, gave you exactly what you asked for and told you to come back when your circumstances changed.

All in all im happy MS, i suppose I wasn't expecting the condition tbh. But its my first cf licence application and I didn't know the ins and outs.

Uinseann_16

Rifter wrote: »

All in all im happy MS, i suppose I wasn't expecting the condition tbh. But its my first cf licence application and I didn't know the ins and outs.

That shouldnt matter at all a .308 bolt action is unrestricted same licence as a .22lr , My guess is its some imposed policy in your district one of the many oddities you get with the "postcode lottery" . Theres lots of districts that put things like this on and other odd conditions because theyve just decided to do it
Goodluck with your new rifle,

zeissman

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

That shouldnt matter at all a .308 bolt action is unrestricted same licence as a .22lr , My guess is its some imposed policy in your district one of the many oddities you get with the "postcode lottery" . Theres lots of districts that put things like this on and other odd conditions because theyve just decided to do it
Goodluck with your new rifle,

I don't see anything wrong with the super imposing these conditions. If you applied for a .22 rifle for target shooting only I would expect the super to impose the same conditions. The op got what he asked for.
If you want a rifle for targets and hunting you need to state it on the application form and attach the evidence of club membership, land permissions, deer licence etc.

Cass

zeissman wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with the super imposing these conditions.

Nothing wrong with the Super doing as its within his authority to do so, but for me it seems almost redundant.

As i said above, and you just said yourself, if you want hunting you apply for it on the FCA1 and supply the necessary paperwork. However if the OP didn't apply for it, and the license was granted for target shooting then hunting is already "prohibited" as it's not the reason he gave when applying.

IOW the "no hunting" condition is there by default and so the condition on the license is redundant.

The other thing i think is farcical is the license won't have this condition on it and if the OP were stopped while out hunting no Garda would know by looking at the license. They wouldn't know until they checked PULSE, if they bothered.

Walter Mittys Brother

I agree unless hunting was applied for and granted that there is no need for the condition on the licence as it is there by default. However, if the licence holder has been notified that no hunting is allowed with the rifle then they couldn't plead ignorance if they do hunt with it. Then, as they'd have broken a specific licence condition the licence would/could be revoked and I doubt even a court appeal would reverse that, given the situation.

Cass

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

However, if the licence holder has been notified that no hunting is allowed with the rifle then they couldn't plead ignorance if they do hunt with it.

I'm not defending the actions of AGS or the DoJ because there are a number of issues and faults wit the licensing system and the level of information we get. I mean there was little to no info when they introduced the new system in 2009 and for years it was "trial and error" with AGS seemingly knowing less than we did, and that trend continues to this day, albeit on a smaller scale.

However the law says it's the applicants/licensee's responsibility to know the type of firearm being applied for hence the appropriate license. As such, and i suppose more by default, you should know that if you applied for target shooting only, as there are two other boxes to tick, then if the license is granted under the only reason you applied for it, then any other reason is "off limits".

We've said time and again that if you're applying for a license for any firearm and you're not sure which box to tick or if you want it for anything more than one condition to tick both target shooting and hunting, but in doing so make sure you can show good reason for what you select otherwise it will be ignored. By ignored i mean only granted for one reason. So if you sow range membership for the target shooting aspect, but cannot produce land permissions, gun club membership or a DHL, then chances are you will not be issued the license for hunting.

I suppose the condition was, as you all said, to highlight the fact that hunting is not permitted, but people should be aware that if they only tick one box (whatever it may be) and the grant letter comes with no conditions printed on it, it's not free reign to do whatever you want with the firearm.

IF in doubt tick both boxes and supply the necessary paperwork.

If you cannot show good reason for one option or the other then don't tick both boxes, only the one you can show good reason for.

Rifter

Just wondering would the same condition be applied in reverse? I know on my .22lr it was not, I got it for hunting, but no condition stating "it could only be used for hunting and not on an authorised range" was applied.

I see a few posters see no problem with the condition, and as it stands, when I am gtg for deer shooting it won't be a problem.

It just seems like an unnecessary condition to impose on a licence to me.

Cass

If you ticked the hunting box for your 22lr and ONLY the hunting box then you applied for the firearm for hunting ONLY. The lack of the same condition printed on the grant is not permission to go target shooting. It is, what i was referring to above, a default setting of "You only have this firearm for hunting and all other practices are not permitted".

Had you ticked the target box you would have been required and asked to produce range membership to show you are a member to validate your good reason for wanting it for target shooting.

Now if you mean can you attend an open competition every now and then, well my thoughts would be no as you did not foresee the need or want to target shoot by not ticking the target box, but ALSO yes as ranges are autorised under the Act to allow non members to shoot. However that is open to interpretation. I mean the high courts couldn't get consensus on this issue either with some cases going for the firearm owner after being refused while others went to the Super/Chief Super.

Its a fecking mess to be honest and trying to prove you can target shoot on a range without being a member is like looking for hen's teeth.