Solar PV Grant now Available - SEAI

quentingargan

unkel wrote: »

6c is a lot more than the value you get for diverting it to immersion (about 4c) and you don't have to pay for any hardware / install! Immersion diverter costs about €500 installed

If I could get 6c, I would definitely sign up and probably install more PV

You would need a smart meter. €350. But i think exporting to the grid is a better way to use surplus power from an environmental as well as financial viewpoint. Also, an immersion can only use a certain amount of power. You still get some surplus on a good day.

gally74

quentingargan wrote: »

You would need a smart meter. €350. But i think exporting to the grid is a better way to use surplus power from an environmental as well as financial viewpoint. Also, an immersion can only use a certain amount of power. You still get some surplus on a good day.

Look solar p v is excellent and thanks to China s mass production, costs have fallen, going for solar edge and lg battery myself

niallers1

Good web site to give an idea on prices. The prices quoted are for the public. If you are an installer you'll get even lower prices.

https://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/buy/sofar-storage/sofar-pylon-4800.html

Looks like installers are not only making money on the installation but also on the materials.

unkel

H.E. Pennypacker wrote: »

I can PM you the company details if you like and you can have a chat with them about it.

Yes please!

quentingargan wrote: »

You would need a smart meter. €350.

I would imagine the utility company would want to install their own smart meter (at their expense)?

quentingargan

H.E. Pennypacker wrote: »

I'm based in Ireland (south). The offering is 6 cent per kWh paid. Quote from their email:


"We have secured a feed in tariff with a highly competitive energy company. If you have a building where you will not take full advantage of the solar that is generated. If you sign up with us we can get you 6c per kWh excess so that even when you are not using the power, you are knocking money off your bills."


This may or may not be a separate offering to a previous poster on this forum who was talking about something similar (jb_dublin?)

Arden Energy is offering this, currently for industrial but they plan to take in residences with solar PV to export.

You would have to get a smart meter from ESB. The export tariff would be based on the SEM-O price at any moment in time.

Up to now, there hasn't been any significant amount of solar PV systems, other than very small part L compliant systems. The grant changes this and will create housing stock with a surplus to export.

On a good day, a 2.1kw system will charge your 5KwHr battery in a few hours so you will still have a surplus. 4kw systems will have a huge surplus. So do you spend money on a hot water diverter, or do you spend money on a smart meter? My money would be on the latter - keep electricity as electricity and preserve its premium value and use something else to heat your water.

Dardania

Trying to think about the sizing criteria for a battery, does anyone have any rules of thumb / guidance? I'm bearing in mind the age old problem in engineering of trying to right size a fixed capacity to a variable load (and what an earlier poster mentioned about damage to cells due to never completely filling them up).

I was trying to work out - should the size be based up your normal, winter evening consumption - say if in the evening one cooks, cleans, watches TV, has lights on etc. - that way it can charge up over the day, and you use it in the evening? It would affect the payback calculation too - you're displacing day rate electricity rather than night rate (so you should still charge your EV and heat your water at night...)
Sound reasonable?

H.E. Pennypacker

quentingargan wrote: »

I know a provider who was offering buy-back to small industry at about 6c. That figure is approximate and would be the ISEM price for the time of export - typically 5c to 6c.

I have asked them if they are doing domestic. Will revert when I hear back, but 'tis a bank holiday...

I was pondering FIT vs diverter today and it struck me that FIT will presumably bring an income tax liability with it, so assuming that you want to be tax compliant and are paying tax at the marginal rate, the FIT reduces to 3 cent per kWh at best

unkel

Has any private person ever payed income tax in this country over FIT? I doubt it.

H.E. Pennypacker

unkel wrote: »

Has any private person ever payed income tax in this country over FIT? I doubt it.

I doubt it too but a potential tax liability is worth bearing in mind even if it is low risk

a148pro

H.E. Pennypacker wrote: »

I doubt it too but a potential tax liability is worth bearing in mind even if it is low risk

I'd say its a credit against your energy usage from the supplier, no? Not sure that's taxable. As in you will still buy more electricity than you sell (one assumes?)

a148pro

quentingargan wrote: »

On a good day, a 2.1kw system will charge your 5KwHr battery in a few hours so you will still have a surplus. 4kw systems will have a huge surplus. So do you spend money on a hot water diverter, or do you spend money on a smart meter? My money would be on the latter - keep electricity as electricity and preserve its premium value and use something else to heat your water.

These are the issues for me

The grants, requirement for battery and potential FIT have introduced a whole amount of new variables to a prospective customer

Some qs:

• - when shoiuld you go more than 2kwh + battery or when could you just stick with the 2kws and no battery?
• - what kind of stuff can and can't you run on 2kws?
• - what kind of stuff could you run off a fully charged battery and for how long?
• - if its a cloudy day / winter low sun, will a larger system generate a significant amount of extra kws such as this should be a factor in your reasoning?
• - what role the divertor now, with both battery and FIT on the scene? would it make sense to have solar thermal and PV now? on a hot day in summer could you expect to fully charge battery, heat immersion and still export?
• - is there any interaction between the need for a battery and potentially using an EV as a battery?

Water John

Mentioning winter load. Would it be feasible, since in winter PV yield would be low, to use night rate to charge your battery storage, for use during the day? I am aware there would be some losses on the system.
Sorry, see that suggested in the link on the previous page.

quentingargan

Water John wrote: »

Mentioning winter load. Would it be feasible, since in winter PV yield would be low, to use night rate to charge your battery storage, for use during the day? I am aware there would be some losses on the system.
Sorry, see that suggested in the link on the previous page.

Some hybrid inverters have this feature. Problem is that it you charge your batteries at night, unless you use that power for morning shower, kettle and toaster, you have nowhere for solar energy to go next day.

unkel

If we take into consideration this 6c FIT, a wise system to be installed now would be a very small battery, taking the best advantage of the 1k subsidy and getting the hardware / system all in place, working and signed off. Fill the battery up with PV during the day and get FIT for the rest. In a year or two when batteries have become a lot cheaper, expand your battery.

quentingargan

a148pro wrote: »

These are the issues for me

what kind of stuff can and can't you run on 2kws?
what kind of stuff could you run off a fully charged battery and for how long?
if its a cloudy day / winter low sun, will a larger system generate a significant amount of extra kws such as this should be a factor in your reasoning?

If you have 2kw solar PV and a battery, most hybrid inverters can export at least 3kw to 5kw, so you can run most appliances. If you go over the limit (kettle and washing machine perhaps), the grid will provide the balance.

Deciding how big a battery to use is difficult. The grant gives you €1000 even if you just buy one 2kwhr battery. Since a typical 2.2 to 2.3 kwhr battery costs less than €1k, and using a hybrid inverter is about €700 more, then the grant will pay a serious chunk of your first battery, but nothing for the second.

If you spend extra on a larger battery, some winter days you won't have more than 2kwhrs of surplus power to charge it. Some summer nights you might not use 2kwhrs during the night.

Oh sorry. Post crossed with Unkel, but we seem to agree..

freddyuk

quentingargan wrote: »

Some hybrid inverters have this feature. Problem is that it you charge your batteries at night, unless you use that power for morning shower, kettle and toaster, you have nowhere for solar energy to go next day.

ESS Systems can be programmed to only charge from the grid the amount you choose. I keep 20% in my 25kWh system as a reserve in case of a power cut so I can run the freezer etc. In winter when power cuts are likely you can increase this margin.
The system will only use solar until you reach lower threshold where the system then uses grid to just keep it above the charging threshold and delivers the rest of your power direct from the grid. I do not have a night rate so would have no benefit charging at night although if I did it would mean I could cover my morning usage with say 25% capacity charge and then let the solar kick in to do the rest of the day for free. This way you are using minimal grid power and maximum solar power.
My average usage since installation is 2 units per day but this will change in winter of course. There is a margin of 50 watts on the grid input so it will hover around 50 watts + or - which makes up much of this amount.
You could set this to 0 watts but it is best to have a buffer amount for fluctuations.
We have not gone mad to reduce the house loads yet as I wanted to see how it works out with "normal" daily usage although we do washing etc. when the weather is good by checking forecast and not having large loads on at the same time to maximise solar benefit. By reducing background loads you can get the average night time load below 3 - 4kWh. A new freezer is using half the power of the old one and these are the biggest drain on power being on 24/7.

Shefwedfan

Maybe a bit off topic but just trying to work out battery

So load on house is circa 0.5kW just to keep house ticking over. I guess with 5kWh battery I will get 10 hours if battery is full?

Sorry one more, if I have 9kW power shower. A 5 min shower will use up how much electricity?

Thanks

johnboy105

How does your battery connect to your appliances during a power outage? Some battery solutions have a separate unit to cover outages like sonnen. Basically it's a separate battery with 1 socket.

Gumbo

johnboy105 wrote: »

How does your battery connect to your appliances during a power outage? Some battery solutions have a separate unit to cover outages like sonnen. Basically it's a separate battery with 1 socket.

It’s connected to the fuse board not the individual appliances.

johnboy105

kceire wrote: »

It’s connected to the fuse board not the individual appliances.

I was advised from an installer "In Ireland outages are only avoidable with units like the Sonnen Protect 1300 which gives you 1300w during an outage, this is approx a 1,000e in addition to a regular battery install."

Maybe it's possible to connect the power from this unit back to the fuse board? And will the solar panels still function during the outage. Freddyuk, what battery manufacturer are you using?

freddyuk

Depends on what system you install. if you have panels connected to GT inverter and the power goes off then the inverter stops working so no PV input. If you have panels connected via controller to batteries then you have panels working charging batteries. I have original GT inverter set up taking PV power into new battery inverter and the battery inverter controls everything automatically. So AC power goes via battery inverter into fuse board.
My batteries are Saltwater Aquion units but the manufacturing company went bust so you will not be able to get these at the moment although they are great units as no gas, acid, toxicity or recycling issues as no nasty components to get rid of its simply salt water.

ted1

johnboy105 wrote: »

kceire wrote: »

It’s connected to the fuse board not the individual appliances.

I was advised from an installer "In Ireland outages are only avoidable with units like the Sonnen Protect 1300 which gives you 1300w during an outage, this is approx a 1,000e in addition to a regular battery install."

Maybe it's possible to connect the power from this unit back to the fuse board? And will the solar panels still function during the outage. Freddyuk, what battery manufacturer are you using?

You can’t have panels or batteries connected to the grid if there is a power failure. This is to protect anybody working on repairing the lines. So the inverter will shutdown once it sees no voltage on the grid side

H.E. Pennypacker

It there any technical advantage/disadvantage to 7 x 270w panels over 6 x 300w panels other than an extra 90w overall on the 270w panels (assuming both are monocrystalline)?

quentingargan

ted1 wrote: »

You can’t have panels or batteries connected to the grid if there is a power failure. This is to protect anybody working on repairing the lines. So the inverter will shutdown once it sees no voltage on the grid side

There are new hybrid inverters from a few different brands that have two AC circuits. One is connected to the grid and goes dead when the grid fails. The other AC outlet continues to provide power from batteries and solar PV. This second outlet can be connected to either a dedicated socket from which you run extension leads all over the place (cheap, not ideal, but often done) or your installer splits your fuseboard up and puts kitchen sockets, heating, water pump, lights and other essential circuits onto the "always on" output. That way, if you have a power cut you can continue to run. Just don't use the kettle or cooker and keep an eye on state of charge.

quentingargan

H.E. Pennypacker wrote: »

It there any technical advantage/disadvantage to 7 x 270w panels over 6 x 300w panels other than an extra 90w overall on the 270w panels (assuming both are monocrystalline)?

Most tier 1 manufacturers are now making 270w to 275w minimum. 260 would be either old stock, or a manufacturer with older technology. Provided it is a trustworthy brand no difference otherwise.

The market has mostly moved on now to Perc monocrystalline which is typically delivering 290w to 305w.

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sorry one more, if I have 9kW power shower. A 5 min shower will use up how much electricity?

Thanks

9kW * 5/60 hour = 0.75kWh

quentingargan

unkel wrote: »

9kW * 5/60 hour = 0.75kWh

Yes - but that won't come from your batteries unless you have a 9kw inverter.

Typically, if you have a 5kw hybrid inverter, only 3kw can come from batteries.

So if you have 3kw of solar and you run a 9kw load, you will get 3kw from solar, 2kw from batteries and the remaining 4kw from the grid. In the early morning, you will get 3kw from batteries and 6kw from the grid.

unkel

quentingargan wrote: »

Typically, if you have a 5kw hybrid inverter, only 3kw can come from batteries.

The spec of the hybrid inverter is an important consideration then!

If you went for a 3kwp install, you would normally get a 3kW inverter, but if you go for a 3kwp install + DC battery, it looks like you need at least a 5kW hybrid inverter? And of course get rid of those bloody electric showers

What's the max discharge rate of a typical lowish end AC battery setup?

quentingargan

unkel wrote: »

The spec of the hybrid inverter is an important consideration then!

If you went for a 3kwp install, you would normally get a 3kW inverter, but if you go for a 3kwp install + DC battery, it looks like you need at least a 5kW hybrid inverter?

What's the max discharge rate of a typical lowish end AC battery setup?

Yes - you would go for a 5kw inverter if you want to use 5kw loads while you have sunshine.

Everyone thinks batteries are for nightime. But if you have a 2kw kettle, washing machine, dishwasher etc and only 1kw of PV on a dull day, you will also do a lot of daytime cycling.

AC battery setups are only really wanted for retrofit. It makes more sense to use a hybrid inverter on a new installation.

Shefwedfan

I guess most things would not require above 3kW. Just keeping an eye on the Owl with cooker/immersion on it never goes over 3kW...

If I do kick in showers it does a big jump...

So a 3kW with the plan to remove electric showers might work....well at least 1 electric shower

a148pro

Just as a matter of interest, by electric shower do you mean a pumped one or one that heats the water as well?

Water John

Pro, he said 9kw above, that's a heating element. Draws more than an electric car.

freddyuk

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I guess most things would not require above 3kW. Just keeping an eye on the Owl with cooker/immersion on it never goes over 3kW...

If I do kick in showers it does a big jump...

So a 3kW with the plan to remove electric showers might work....well at least 1 electric shower

Remember the cooker is on a thermostat so is on/off all the time. Immersion draws 2.8 - 3kw so with background loads you would exceed the inverter limit.
If you start adding up potential loads it is easy to exceed 5kw as in kettle + toaster+ grill/oven. Also check the inverter is kw not kva which is less then kw!

Calahonda52

freddyuk wrote: »

Remember the cooker is on a thermostat so is on/off all the time. Immersion draws 2.8 - 3kw so with background loads you would exceed the inverter limit.
If you start adding up potential loads it is easy to exceed 5kw as in kettle + toaster+ grill/oven. Also check the inverter is kw not kva which is less then kw!

+1
some immersions are only 2kW but electric rings on a cooker can be 1.6, 1.2, 0.8, 0.6 kW, the oven can be 2kW
Kettles can be 2/2.4
Get out the manual for the cooker and each ring should be listed.

freddy: do these inverters have a surge and continuous rating?

quentingargan

Calahonda52 wrote: »

+1
some immersions are only 2kW but electric rings on a cooker can be 1.6, 1.2, 0.8, 0.6 kW, the oven can be 2kW
Kettles can be 2/2.4
Get out the manual for the cooker and each ring should be listed.

freddy: do these inverters have a surge and continuous rating?

Offgrid inverters and hybrid inverters in a power cut will drop out if their rating is exceeded, but in both cases, provided the grid is available, the inverter will take the surplus requirement from the grid.

Some offgrid inverters have a short-term surge capacity of 100%.

What I find interesting is to try and understand how having a battery can reduce grid consumption during the day, which in some households might be the more significant benefit.

Water John

One hopes, one always hopes, that a significant amount of solar will be on the grid in the medium term. Not anything proactive in Ireland, just a fear of fines.
So electricity prices would hopefully drop in the middle of the day, with the early evening being then the best benefit of storage.
A bit of strategic planning would seek to marry these various inputs at national level. but we're in the, pigs might fly territory.
I see we're being told there will be so many Anerobic Digesters by 2030. Studied the subject in 2001 and we haven't progressed one iota.
Some kettles are up to 3kw.

gunnerfitzy

Not sure if this has been mentioned previously in this or other threads but SEAI confirmed to me that the grant is only payable once per household. So if one installs Solar PV without the battery and claims the grant on that, one will not be allowed claim the battery element of the grant should a battery be installed at a later date.

It seems prudent to get a battery of some capacity installed if availing of the grant.

Shefwedfan

gunnerfitzy wrote: »

Not sure if this has been mentioned previously in this or other threads but SEAI confirmed to me that the grant is only payable once per household. So if one installs Solar PV without the battery and claims the grant on that, one will not be allowed claim the battery element of the grant should a battery be installed at a later date.

It seems prudent to get a battery of some capacity installed if availing of the grant.

Maybe not on thread but I confirmed that as well


My plan was stick in 2kW now....then in 6 months another 2kW with battery....


That was put to bed quickly

unkel

If I had no PV, I would stick in the max panels that would fit on my roof (can add panels to shed / kitchen extension later either DIY or with the help of a roofer), an oversized hybrid inverter and stick in just one (€1k) 2.4kWh battery. Can extend this in a year or two when batteries get cheaper, but all of this depending on the break down of the quotes

Best price we have seen so far is €4.3k (incl. VAT) before grant for a non-battery 7 panel system, which costs about €2.2k (incl. VAT) in parts (so €2.9k net cost to the owner)

So they are charging €2,100 for install. That's a lot of money for what is essentially a pretty easy job. How many man days work is this?

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

If I had no PV, I would stick in the max panels that would fit on my roof (can add panels to shed / kitchen extension later either DIY or with the help of a roofer), an oversized hybrid inverter and stick in just one (€1k) 2.4kWh battery. Can extend this in a year or two when batteries get cheaper, but all of this depending on the break down of the quotes

Best price we have seen so far is €4.3k (incl. VAT) before grant for a non-battery 7 panel system, which costs about €2.2k (incl. VAT) in parts (so €2.9k net cost to the owner)

So they are charging €2,100 for install. That's a lot of money for what is essentially a pretty easy job. How many man days work is this?

I would guess 2 days at most.....maybe 3.....

unkel

Yeah that would be my guess too, but I'm no expert

€2100/3 days = €700 per day. That is very rich.

Now this obviously includes the profit the installing company is making as I priced the parts at cost, but still

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Yeah that would be my guess too, but I'm no expert

€2100/3 days = €700 per day. That is very rich.

Now this obviously includes the profit the installing company is making as I priced the parts at cost, but still

They ain't on the bread line alright


And to think the reason why Thermal companies didnt do PV for a long time was because they couldn't make enough margin :P:P

wexfordman2

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I would guess 2 days at most.....maybe 3.....

Installer told me he would have it dine in a day, but I think that was with 3 or 4 bodies in site

Balanadan

unkel wrote: »

If I had no PV, I would stick in the max panels that would fit on my roof (can add panels to shed / kitchen extension later either DIY or with the help of a roofer), an oversized hybrid inverter and stick in just one (€1k) 2.4kWh battery. Can extend this in a year or two when batteries get cheaper, but all of this depending on the break down of the quotes

Best price we have seen so far is €4.3k (incl. VAT) before grant for a non-battery 7 panel system, which costs about €2.2k (incl. VAT) in parts (so €2.9k net cost to the owner)

So they are charging €2,100 for install. That's a lot of money for what is essentially a pretty easy job. How many man days work is this?

Generally inverters are undersized in order to maximise yield. You could be wasting money oversizing an inverter.

unkel

Balanadan wrote: »

Generally inverters are undersized in order to maximise yield. You could be wasting money oversizing an inverter.

Not with hybrid inverters. They need to be able to supply solar plus battery power at the same time.

Technique

The heat pump for my geothermal heating has a 2.6kw compressor. Would solar PV be an option to run this using battery storage? What sort of spec would be suitable? And would it be an issue that in winter my heat pump is working hardest (12 hrs/day) when daylight is at its least? My system uses about 2,200kw/year.

I'm hoping that the lower cost of solar PV plus the grant makes this a viable option for a short payback time.

Thanks.

unkel

You can't heat your house with solar PV in Ireland. Period.

niallers1

I think he meant that solar PV will help lower his bill for running his heat pump compressor.

unkel

Of course it will help a tiny little bit, but when you need your heating (in winter in the dark) there is zero solar PV and having a battery barely makes a difference

Balanadan

unkel wrote: »

Not with hybrid inverters. They need to be able to supply solar plus battery power at the same time.

It applies to hybrid inverters too, you can end up operating the system inefficiently and achieving a lower yield with an incorrectly sized inverter.

Just looked at the grant properly, it pretty much halves the cost of a domestic PV system (not looking at battery storage)! It's ridiculous using taxpayer's money like that when you consider that they are phasing out the incentives in the UK. While it's exceptionally generous, and given the the limitations of domestic solar, why not focus on removing the barriers to solar PV deployment in Ireland? The SEAI don't appear to be at the same level as the MCS in terms of standards and regulations either, that should be one of the first things addressed before anything more is done! We're miles behind where we need to be.