How we think and talk about reducing car use in cities

El Tarangu

Several posters, when talking about their decision in driving to work, mention that their workplaces have parking. I think that there should be a BIK tax on employee parking; if employers are supplying their workers with a BIK that is worth a couple of grand per year, I don't see why it would not be taxed accordingly. Particularly if it is acting as an incentive for people to drive to work, increasing congestion and all the negative side effect that goes with additional cars being on the road.

cgcsb

El Tarangu wrote: »

Several posters, when talking about their decision in driving to work, mention that their workplaces have parking. I think that there should be a BIK tax on employee parking; if employers are supplying their workers with a BIK that is worth a couple of grand per year, I don't see why it would not be taxed accordingly. Particularly if it is acting as an incentive for people to drive to work, increasing congestion and all the negative side effect that goes with additional cars being on the road.

That would really help. Also the antiquated practice of offering civil servants free parking has to end. The new office blocks that are springing up around Dublin, replacing blocks built in the 70s are being completed with little or no parking included, which is positive.

plodder

Bray Head wrote: »

Fares in Dublin are very high compared to most European cities (not London).

Two adults and two children in and out of city centre on Dublin Bus is €12.40.

That's comparable to fuel and parking for a few hours.

Most people are going to have a car for other reasons. So, the fixed costs associated with car ownership are not that relevant. It's the marginal cost of usage that matters. And the scandal above is what leads to the anti public transport mentality we have. It's similar for Irish rail. Lack of group fares means it's rarely economic for a group to travel anywhere by train instead of car.

A few general points.

There's not much point talking about reducing car use in Dublin before the Metro and (some form of) DART underground are built imo. I don't fully buy into this idea that throttling car usage with more bus lanes just works on its own. It won't work without increased bus availability. I think we need more buses not just a re-organised service a-la Bus Connects. On street Luas is no more than an expensive bus (if Bus connects works, then it's hard to see what advantage on-street Luas would have).

Here's one small suggestion that I think could be looked at. One of the problems with bus lanes is encroachment of cars into them at particular choke points (eg junctions), which tends to hold up bus services queuing behind the cars that shouldn't be there. Enforcement of the rules is half-hearted, partly I think because the throttling effect of cars would be extremely severe if they were forced to obey the rules 100% and there would be uproar. That's based mostly on several years of using the Clontarf Rd. by car, and only once ever seeing the gardai enforce the bus lane rule at any of the choke points. But on that occasion it resulted in a much longer queue for cars.

If however, better enforcement could be brought in partly with physical barriers like the plastic barriers we have in some places, but as a quid pro quo, we allow HOV (high occupancy) cars to use bus lanes. You would get better utilisation of the bus lane and freer movement of buses at peak times. Would require better enforcement by gardai (or cameras maybe) though I think physical barriers makes it clearer to motorists when exactly they are allowed to encroach.

Shefwedfan

I see a lot of posts on here saying that cycling is only option. I don't see anyone saying that.

Personally I am talking about a public transport system. So bus, rail, luas, cycle, walk, scooter, Segway etc etc. All modes of transport that are options

It just goes to show how narrow-minded people are that they can't actually think outside the box. As soon as you mention getting rid of car it is cycle or bus....

Lets say they close the city down to car. The reduced traffic would allow for more Luas lines. Roads would be open except for 1 lane so people would be free to use without risk of hitting pedestrians.

It seems instead of coming up with 100's of options for transport everyone has to be negative and come up with 100 reasons why they can't leave a car at home.

No bloody dirty air killing everyone slowly should be the goal.....

troyzer

cgcsb wrote: »

Mullingar has a rail connection to Dublin and once Metrolink is built, and DART expansion is complete commuters for Mullingar will have excellent interchange options to get them all over the Greater Dublin Area in a jiffy.

It does but Mullingar itself has one station, my friend lives on the outskirts and it's a forty walk to the station. At which point he could already be near Kilcock in the car.

Obviously he could drive to the station and then park, but parking is limited and expensive. Or cycle to the station and bring the bike out at the other end. All of which just adds more time and complexity to the commute when it's much quicker to just drive.

It takes up to an extra hour each way to do it by train and DART vs just driving in.

If they do improve the DART and Metrolink, great. But I'm still waiting for the Luas line to Lucan which was proposed over ten years ago so I won't hold my breath on the DART expansion or Metrolink ever being finished.

troyzer

El Tarangu wrote: »

Several posters, when talking about their decision in driving to work, mention that their workplaces have parking. I think that there should be a BIK tax on employee parking; if employers are supplying their workers with a BIK that is worth a couple of grand per year, I don't see why it would not be taxed accordingly. Particularly if it is acting as an incentive for people to drive to work, increasing congestion and all the negative side effect that goes with additional cars being on the road.

I wouldn't have a problem with this IF THERE WAS AN ALTERNATIVE.

You can't have the stick without the carrot. I'm very happy to move to PT if it's viable but it isn't. I'm not wasting an extra two hours a day commuting just because driving to work is wrong. And it is wrong, I agree. But my conscience just isn't worth two hours a day to me.

Qrt

Schleswig-Holstein has a ticket called the Schleswig-Holstein Tarif. It's €26 or €29 for one person to go anywhere in the State or to Hamburg, and €32 for two. Great incentive.

cgcsb

plodder wrote: »

There's not much point talking about reducing car use in Dublin before the Metro and (some form of) DART underground are built imo. I don't fully buy into this idea that throttling car usage with more bus lanes just works on its own. It won't work without increased bus availability. I think we need more buses not just a re-organised service a-la Bus Connects. On street Luas is no more than an expensive bus (if Bus connects works, then it's hard to see what advantage on-street Luas would have).

Oh but it will work because handing over more space from buses to cars = dramatic improvement in bus speeds and slight dissimprovement in car speeds which in turn creates modal shift as more people stuck in traffic see more buses sailing past their left window. We're ten years away from metro, DARTu wont happen until the later half of the century. In the meantime we have bus connects. Metro is only going to pring about significant PT improvement along one corridor, the rest will be delivered by better bus services.

Luas has the advantage of far greater capacity over buses.

cgcsb

troyzer wrote: »

If they do improve the DART and Metrolink, great. But I'm still waiting for the Luas line to Lucan which was proposed over ten years ago so I won't hold my breath on the DART expansion or Metrolink ever being finished.

If Lucan Luas was built, as proposed 10 years ago and you were using it today, your journey to Ballsbridge would be well over an hour. The proposed line had a Lucan-Trinity journey time of 55 minutes.

cgcsb

troyzer wrote: »

I wouldn't have a problem with this IF THERE WAS AN ALTERNATIVE.

You can't have the stick without the carrot. I'm very happy to move to PT if it's viable but it isn't. I'm not wasting an extra two hours a day commuting just because driving to work is wrong. And it is wrong, I agree. But my conscience just isn't worth two hours a day to me.

The alternative modes will be greatly improved by next year though.

troyzer

cgcsb wrote: »

If Lucan Luas was built, as proposed 10 years ago and you were using it today, your journey to Ballsbridge would be well over an hour. The proposed line had a Lucan-Trinity journey time of 55 minutes.

Probably just as well it didn't go ahead then. 55 minutes is a joke.

LeChienMefiant

cgcsb wrote: »

If Lucan Luas was built, as proposed 10 years ago and you were using it today, your journey to Ballsbridge would be well over an hour. The proposed line had a Lucan-Trinity journey time of 55 minutes.

Luas for long distances is a joke. The need for Metro/DART is obvious to some. I'd go spare if I was traversing the length of the Green Luas line every day.

cgcsb

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Luas for long distances is a joke. The need for Metro/DART is obvious to some. I'd go spare if I was traversing the length of the Green Luas line every day.

on street trams aren't appropriate for serving distant suburbs. They're meant to provide frequent stopping service to inner suburbs, they fulfill a need somewhere between buses and metros/commuter rail. For political reasons our tram system was extended to serve mountainous villages.

Metro will partially correct that problem an we'll be left with a Finglas-Charlemont(perhaps Ballsbridge/UCD in the future) luas, which is really the max route length trams should be serving.

What to do with the red line is another story, perhaps convert it to metro from Citywest/Tallaght to James's and divert via new east-west tunnel into town or elevated track by the Grand Canal. Then leave an existing on-street luas service run from St James's to the Point/Poolbeg.

magicbastarder

a lot of the discussion here has turned to the obvious big one of commuting, but there's still an awful lot of car journeys undertaken which are simple errand running (obviously more so in the suburbs than in the city centre) - we should also be considering how to facilitate those.
to a certain extent, deliveries of shopping will be making a dent in them, but i'd hazard a guess that any effect from that is being swallowed up in other increases.

LeChienMefiant

magicbastarder wrote: »

a lot of the discussion here has turned to the obvious big one of commuting, but there's still an awful lot of car journeys undertaken which are simple errand running (obviously more so in the suburbs than in the city centre) - we should also be considering how to facilitate those.
to a certain extent, deliveries of shopping will be making a dent in them, but i'd hazard a guess that any effect from that is being swallowed up in other increases.

I regularly see neighbours drive to the shop which is 600m away with good footpaths in perfect conditions and with no mobility issues.

cgcsb

magicbastarder wrote: »

a lot of the discussion here has turned to the obvious big one of commuting, but there's still an awful lot of car journeys undertaken which are simple errand running (obviously more so in the suburbs than in the city centre) - we should also be considering how to facilitate those.
to a certain extent, deliveries of shopping will be making a dent in them, but i'd hazard a guess that any effect from that is being swallowed up in other increases.

For suburban errand running I think better bike infrastructure and the improved local bus routes under bus connects will have a big impact.

Take Blanchardstown as an example. A relatively small area really, a few single decker electric buses can effectively serve most of the estates, train stations and the shopping centre.

Improved cycle lanes, There are actually decent cycling lanes around Blanch, improving key areas, bringing in a local bike scheme etc would work wonders.

In terms of demand management though there's a problem presented by the acres of free parking in the Centre. If I'm being honest, I'd jump in my car and go to Blanch without a care in the world or the slightest consideration of when the next bus might take me or what the biking conditions are like.

I think in the case of Blanch, Liffey Valley etc. the biggest and most significant impact on encouraging modal shift will be, charge for the parking.

plodder

cgcsb wrote: »

Oh but it will work because handing over more space from buses to cars = dramatic improvement in bus speeds and slight dissimprovement in car speeds which in turn creates modal shift as more people stuck in traffic see more buses sailing past their left window.

I assume you meant from "cars to buses". It's not necessarily going to improve overall throughput of passengers at peak times though unless you increase bus capacity because if you don't, all you're doing is creating unused space. As we all know, car traffic just increases to fill all the available space. But, that's not the case with buses.

We're ten years away from metro, DARTu wont happen until the later half of the century. In the meantime we have bus connects. Metro is only going to pring about significant PT improvement along one corridor, the rest will be delivered by better bus services.

Luas has the advantage of far greater capacity over buses.

I'm sure this argument has been done before, but I'm sceptical that additional on street Luas lines with four carriage trams will be as effective as double decker buses. Additional Luas lines will take years as well, whereas Bus connects will be delivered a lot sooner. I'd hope DART U will be (a lot) sooner than 2050 though.

LeChienMefiant

cgcsb wrote: »

I think in the case of Blanch, Liffey Valley etc. the biggest and most significant impact on encouraging modal shift will be, charge for the parking.

Dundrum seems to have been designed and built to achieve maximum separation in practical terms from the adjacent Luas. It's scandalous the way it was allowed develop. For staff it is fine, but it's completely unintuitive and even hostile to access the centre from the Luas. It has improved in terms of signage over the years but the owners clearly want people in cars with big boots and until recently the parking was cheap as long as you stayed 3 hours and did lots of shopping/spending.

cgcsb

plodder wrote: »

I assume you meant from "cars to buses". It's not necessarily going to improve overall throughput of passengers at peak times though unless you increase bus capacity because if you don't, all you're doing is creating unused space. As we all know, car traffic just increases to fill all the available space. But, that's not the case with buses.

Improving bus speeds = improved capacity. The faster a bus gets to one end of the line and turns around the more the capacity. You basically have more buses in operation when half them aren't standing still on the quays. Bus Connects will also deliver an expanded fleet.

plodder wrote: »

I'm sure this argument has been done before, but I'm sceptical that additional on street Luas lines with four carriage trams will be as effective as double decker buses. Additional Luas lines will take years as well, whereas Bus connects will be delivered a lot sooner. I'd hope DART U will be (a lot) sooner than 2050 though.

It's a simple numerical fact that Light rail provides more capacity than a bus corridor.

I'm not suggesting we go building more luas lines in the immediate future although a new north-south luas to the west of the existing green line would be a good idea in the future, perhaps via Church St.

DARTu wasn't included in the Ireland 2040 plan so unlikely to be delivered any time before 2050.

Interested Observer

I know it's not for everyone but I've started commuting on my bike recently and it's the best thing I've ever done. I can park under my office but I've driven maybe once in the last two weeks instead of driving every day. Would really recommend it. Anything up to about 20km at the moment and my bike would be the primary way I'd get in and home.

cgcsb

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Dundrum seems to have been designed and built to achieve maximum separation in practical terms from the adjacent Luas. It's scandalous the way it was allowed develop. For staff it is fine, but it's completely unintuitive and even hostile to access the centre from the Luas. It has improved in terms of signage over the years but the owners clearly want people in cars with big boots and until recently the parking was cheap as long as you stayed 3 hours and did lots of shopping/spending.

Indeed there should be an onus but on Dundrum and Blanchardstown to improve connections to the Luas/Castleknock and Coolmine Stations. The Square in Tallaght to the Luas ain't easy either. Taxing them for free parking is probably the way to go. Doing so may also mean more people choosing to take PT to the City Centre to shop instead.

magicbastarder

cgcsb wrote: »

Improved cycle lanes, There are actually decent cycling lanes around Blanch

they've still made some idiotic design errors with cycle lanes/paths built in the last few years though, i'm thinking of a couple near the centre.

plodder

cgcsb wrote: »

Improving bus speeds = improved capacity. The faster a bus gets to one end of the line and turns around the more the capacity. You basically have more buses in operation when half them aren't standing still on the quays.

True, but you have to factor in the wasted space that could be occupied by the unlimited supply of cars that would be available to fill the space. It's my contention that allowing HOV usage would improve the utilisation of that wasted space in bus lanes. If Bus Connects doesn't deliver a dramatically better service then I'd be in favour of this and other efforts to improve utilisation of peak time road space.

Bus Connects will also deliver an expanded fleet.

Good. Glad to hear that.

It's a simple numerical fact that Light rail provides more capacity than a bus corridor.

I really don't think it's "a simple numerical fact". There are assumptions involved. Light rail on segregated track can I'm sure, but on congested streets? By my calculation the capacity of a Luas is around 8.95 passengers per linear metre (358 pax in 40m). A double decker wrightbus gemini 3 (90 passengers 10.5 m length) is 8.57. So, they are much the same. It's down to road conditions/layout after that.

DARTu wasn't included in the Ireland 2040 plan so unlikely to be delivered any time before 2050.

Plans change much more frequently than the timeline you're talking about there.

Interested Observer

plodder wrote: »

I really don't think it's "a simple numerical fact". There are assumptions involved. Light rail on segregated track can I'm sure, but on congested streets? By my calculation the capacity of a Luas is around 8.95 passengers per linear metre (358 pax in 40m). A double decker wrightbus gemini 3 (90 passengers 10.5 m length) is 8.57. So, they are much the same. It's down to road conditions/layout after that.

Plans change much more frequently than the timeline you're talking about there.

Are buses four times more frequent than Luas then? I don't really know why the per sqm figure is too important, a person takes up a certain amount of space no matter what vehicle they're on. The fact is the Luas is 40m long and the bus is only 10m long.

cgcsb

plodder wrote: »

True, but you have to factor in the wasted space that could be occupied by the unlimited supply of cars that would be available to fill the space. It's my contention that allowing HOV usage would improve the utilisation of that wasted space in bus lanes. If Bus Connects doesn't deliver a dramatically better service then I'd be in favour of this and other efforts to improve utilisation of peak time road space.

What wasted space? what does this have to do with capacity?

plodder wrote: »

I really don't think it's "a simple numerical fact". There are assumptions involved. Light rail on segregated track can I'm sure, but on congested streets? By my calculation the capacity of a Luas is around 8.95 passengers per linear metre (358 pax in 40m). A double decker wrightbus gemini 3 (90 passengers 10.5 m length) is 8.57. So, they are much the same. It's down to road conditions/layout after that.

What bus corridor operates 4 buses in a row every 2-3 minutes?

plodder wrote: »

Plans change much more frequently than the timeline you're talking about there.

Indeed. DART expansion without the underground element coupled with the capacity added by metro link is expected to deliver approximately 70% of benefits of the DART expansion scheme, i.e. the tunnel element = a third of the benefits. so we'll have a much improved DART service sooner than that.

plodder

Interested Observer wrote: »

Are buses four times more frequent than Luas then? I don't really know why the per sqm figure is too important, a person takes up a certain amount of space no matter what vehicle they're on. The fact is the Luas is 40m long and the bus is only 10m long.

I think it's important not to allow the idea to catch hold, of several new Luas lines which has been bandied about (by a certain well known Senator) as an alternative to the Metro. I think we've got the low hanging fruit in terms of available segregated track and trams are just going to be competing with buses after that. That's really my point.

The J Stands for Jay

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Depreciation



Everyone forgets that little nugget. You lose at least 4k per year even if you never drive it

If I assume the car will be worthless in 5vyears, the depreciation is only €2k a year.

The J Stands for Jay

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So you buy a car for 10k this year and sell it next year for 10k? I must try that one out

I don't expect to this time, but I've done it in the past.

prinzeugen

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So your trying to say a plumber now is using pesticides? If one plumber wont service the city centre I know the next guy will buy an electric van and make a killing covering that area.


As already mentioned the medicines would be under emergency services. Also you do realize a lot of medicines are transferred using motorbikes for speed?



Hairdressers can bring everything in a small carry bag. Next you will be trying to tell me they have to carry around a hair dressers chair


This has nothing to do with bicycle. It is public transport. Bicycle/train/taxi/bux/luas etc etc etc

Please tell me the laws/regulations that would stop people using public transport?

You can dig and dig and yes you will find some requirements for vehicles to travel into city centre.....


You can buy an electric van/car/motorbikes today....some of the Dublin city councils have purchased them and use them now.

You must not have read my post right. Environmental Health use pesticides not plumbers. I use pesticides and if I was to decant them into smaller amounts and take them on public transport or on a cycle, I would find myself getting nailed to the floor in the courts.

Medicine is delivered by van. Only live tissue/blood is moved by bike.

There are strict regulations on the carriage of dangerous goods. Its not rocket science!

Electric vans for plumbers (and other trades) wont work. Its the parking that is the problem. Why have a guy spending hours walking back and forth to his van and only getting paid for one job, when he could get 3-4 other jobs done in the same amount of time elsewhere.

Dynorod etc need access all day. Do you think a business is going to shut up shop while they slowly fill up with crap from a blocked drain? No they need the guy in the van outside asap. They cant wait until the night. Could be thousands of Euros worth of damage by that point.

And another poster suggested delivering at nights... Ridiculous suggestion. This came up before and it was clear that the majority of people are quite ignorant as to how the stuff gets into a shop or businesses or how other people go about work.

troyzer

It should also be said that all of this might be completely pointless once autonomous cars come along.

Within the next 10-15 years it'll be possible to get in a car which drives you to work and then can park at home ready to pick you up when needed.

Once that happens you can start getting rid of parking spaces in the city centre which in the case of on street parking can be turned into cycle lanes and the multi storeys turned into housing/commercial units. Autonomous cars also allow for the abolition of traffic lights which allows for free flowing junctions all the time.

They won't solve everything, but they'd be a huge dent in the problem.