Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

Christy42

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Penn wrote: »

Also not going to reveal the names of the jurors after the trial due to potential threat to their lives.

So why aren't these threats given to the police and let the police or whoever sort these eijits who think it's okay to treaten a judge and members of a jury. Sure the jury could easily say they can't reach a verdict if they feel by reaching a verdict that may not be kind to manafort they put their lives at risk.

I am going to assume that they know given he is under protection. He mentioned this in response to a press inquiry about the jurors.

Leroy42

Hold on Manic. You are claiming that it is a great idea because of WW1 etc. anniversary Yet Trump has folded because of the cost and stated that maybe next year. But next year doesn't fit with that.

So which is it? Are we to reorganise history to suit?

The best deal maker in the world cannot organise a parade because some city councilors are looking to make a buck? I have never heard a national leader make such a weak handed climb down. And you are buying into it? The CiC can't organise a parade? Yet he is going to tackle Russia without Nato?

How much did he spend on the inauguration day? $26m to a company that did the apprentice yet he was going to hold a military parade for $10 to $30 million? He got the numbers massively wrong, as he numerous bankruptcies show he has a habit of doing.

Yet again Trump has failed and yet again it is everyelses fault that the ill thought out idea has turned out to be far more complicated that he thought.

Come on.

UsedToWait

^ I heard the military / intelligence communities' response today described as a sounding of the alarm bell about this President.

Currently reading Russian Roulette by Michael Isikoff.
It's clear that the intelligence community know everything that Robert Mueller knows, and that they are aghast that we are in the situation where a Russian proxy is in the White House.

I don't get why you can't see, Manic, why a President who has devalued America almost irreparably on the global stage, co-opting your comrades for nothing more than an ego-stroking exercise, is a bad idea.



Edit: BBC

William McRaven, a retired Navy admiral who oversaw the raid that resulted in the death of Osama bin Laden, also wrote an open letter to Mr Trump on Thursday, saying he would consider it "an honour" if his own clearance were removed.

When buttoned up guys like this are speaking out Manic, do you not stop to reconsider your support of this morally aberrant character.

aloyisious

Penn wrote: »

Also not going to reveal the names of the jurors after the trial due to potential threat to their lives.

I'm a bit surprised that any news agency worth it's salt and with a thinking editor would have asked for the personal details of the jurors, whatever about freedom of info. The media release of that info would be dangerous troll feeding.

Re the WW1 military Memorial Day parade, it seems to me that an event held at Arlington Cemetery at the tomb of the Unknown Soldier would be a more fitting ceremony as it could include US and foreign civil dignitaries along with Don, with a minimum of road closure and ancillary security measures, a reduction in Mil Veh ground involvement. I'm not sure if the cemetery is US DoD or National Parks owned property but as a national cemetery, I'm sure there are large filing cabinets in state, local and national Govt offices covering all eventualities. It's just that that might not sit right alongside Don's ego. The idea of holding the event after the centenary year is a cop-out.

Manic Moran

Leroy42 wrote: »

Hold on Manic. You are claiming that it is a great idea because of WW1 etc. anniversary Yet Trump has folded because of the cost and stated that maybe next year. But next year doesn't fit with that.

So which is it? Are we to reorganise history to suit?

You are right, it does not. “101st anniversary” is a bit weak. Doesn’t mean to say it wasn’t a wasted golden opportunity for 2018 though. Personally, I can can see an argument for waiting two years for VJ Day. If it has to be next year, maybe the 75th anniversary of D-Day. Probably the last major anniversary of that significant event that the veterans are actually still going to be around for. Four years ago, the celebrations in Paris for the 70th anniversary of its liberation lasted for a week. Want to make any bets that there won’t be a major event made out of the 75th?

Yet again Trump has failed and yet again it is everyelses fault that the ill thought out idea has turned out to be far more complicated that he thought.

Come on.

As you yourself observe, how hard is it to organize a parade? The idea is not a bad one as evidenced by many other uncontroversial countries, and it would appear that the idea of the thing actually costing $92m being a bit unusual has not just caught Trump; Mattis was characteristically blunt in his own assesment of the figure.

Realistically, how much of this discussion would we be having if it had been Clinton in charge and she had said “I want a 100th anniversary parade?”

listermint

UsedToWait wrote: »

^ I heard the military / intelligence communities' response today described as a sounding of the alarm bell about this President.

Currently reading Russian Roulette by Michael Isikoff.
It's clear that the intelligence community know everything that Robert Mueller knows, and that they are aghast that we are in the situation where a Russian proxy is in the White House.

I don't get why you can't see, Manic, why a President who has devalued America almost irreparably on the global stage, co-opting your comrades for nothing more than an ego-stroking exercise, is a bad idea.



Edit: BBC

William McRaven, a retired Navy admiral who oversaw the raid that resulted in the death of Osama bin Laden, also wrote an open letter to Mr Trump on Thursday, saying he would consider it "an honour" if his own clearance were removed.

When buttoned up guys like this are speaking out Manic, do you not stop to reconsider your support of this morally aberrant character.

Manic doesn't really care.

Initially he pretended to be middle of the road trump supporter but having read his responses in the last month there is little that he sees now to have a distaste for trump.

Fully Pro trump at this point. He may try to despute that but the tone and content of his trump defenses are not down the middle anymore.

But sure that's ok if he supports him I disagree with trump wholely but stop trying to paint oneself as half hearted republican trump supporter it doesn't wash anymore for me

UsedToWait

Manic Moran wrote: »

Realistically, how much of this discussion would we be having if it had been Clinton in charge and she had said “I want a 100th anniversary parade?”

Ah c'mon..
All this time, you've argued from a rational, certainly right of centre, but coherent stand point, and now you have to resort to But Hilary stuff.

It just shows how morally bankrupt your demagogue is, that a clearly intelligent person, with previously reasoned arguments, has fallen to the default 'not as bad as' line.


^edit: what listermint said above, while I was typing

aloyisious

Manic Moran wrote: »

You are right, it does not. “101st anniversary” is a bit weak. Doesn’t mean to say it wasn’t a wasted golden opportunity for 2018 though. Personally, I can can see an argument for waiting two years for VJ Day. If it has to be next year, maybe the 75th anniversary of D-Day. Probably the last major anniversary of that significant event that the veterans are actually still going to be around for. Four years ago, the celebrations in Paris for the 70th anniversary of its liberation lasted for a week. Want to make any bets that there won’t be a major event made out of the 75th?

Realistically, how much of this discussion would we be having if it had been Clinton in charge and she had said “I want a 100th anniversary parade?”

The D-Day landings 75th would be good, particularly as it could be used to mend fences with traditional European allies, and include US Veterans. VJ-Day would also be good, but liable to hijack by anti-nuclear weapon objectors. Re Hillary, I can just see the GOP headlines already "the warmonger wants a military parade"

Just in passing about your involvement in the event near Toronto, does this mean there will be a joint parade event in Canada with the Canadian armed forces?

Igotadose

Timely tidbit from an attempt at outreach from Trump and Omarosa(!) to Vietnam veterans grouos. Seems like the meeting degenerated into a debate over "Apocalypse Now". Omarosa was WH point person for Veterans issues at one point despite zero qualifications and less interest in Vets issues. https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-and-omarosa-had-a-fcking-weird-fight-with-vietnam-vets

relax carry on

Leroy42 wrote: »

Are we to reorganise history to suit?

Not really a Trump problem, or maybe it is in Trumps alternative facts world, the above line reminded me of this "f**k up" by Fox this week.

I'd forgotten that America defeated communist Japan in World War II.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/fox-news-host-falsely-claims-us-defeated-communist-japan-on-live-tv-a3913921.html

I wonder how many Americans would fully understand what they would be celebrating with Trumps parade anyway?

Dohnjoe

Another surreal moment..

"The Senate unanimously passed a resolution Thursday affirming that "the press is not the enemy of the people." The resolution, introduced by Democratic Sen. Brian Schatz of Hawaii, passed by unanimous consent."

The fact that they had to do this in the first place is extraordinary

Turpentine

Manic Moran wrote: »

Certainly not enough to warrant my spending any brain cells on it before now.

Sums it up really.


The bastard wants to bring asbestos to you as well, big style. Imported from Russia. They're putting Trump's face on the packages as well.


Don't try to pretend you didn't know afterwards.

Manic Moran

UsedToWait wrote: »

Manic Moran wrote: »

Realistically, how much of this discussion would we be having if it had been Clinton in charge and she had said “I want a 100th anniversary parade?”

Ah c'mon..
All this time, you've argued from a rational, certainly right of centre, but coherent stand point, and now you have to resort to But Hilary stuff.

It just shows how morally bankrupt your demagogue is, that a clearly intelligent person, with previously reasoned arguments, has fallen to the default 'not as bad as' line.


^edit: what listermint said above, while I was typing

With respect, the entire line of argument, both now and a few months ago when it first came up, has been “it is a bad idea because Trump came up with it to fuel his ego”. Certainly the mechanics of merits of a parade in itself have not been greatly argued, probably because enough other countries, including Ireland, have found ways to afford to do them, with great popular support.

If that’s not arguing personality, what is? The “person” behind the argument seems to -be- the argument. Attempts to argue the merit of the event itself for its own sake have been generally soundly rebuffed with the “irrelevant, his ego is important” argument, with some exception granted to Listermint and Aloyisious. Yet, pointing this out with the obvious example, suddenly I’m the downgraded version of pulling a Godwin. It’s as if they expect the parade to have “Hail Trump” flags instead of actually being implemented in a manner commensurate with other Western nations. Maybe Trump would like “Hail Trump” flags, I don’t know. Since I am fairly confident that such would not be present, I think we can ignore the line of argument of how such a parade would actually be conducted.

With respect to the larger “demagogue” issues, you may have noticed I have not leaped to Trump’s defense with regards to Omarosa, I have not said anything about the Manafort trial. I have not argued that his position on the media is correct, or that in the recent rash of security clearance renovations is appropriate. I have not defended many other such Trump-related things where I am not in disagreement with the majority on this board. If that makes me a “demagogue”, I think you need to look at yourselves a bit.

Re Canada: No, it is not a joint parade, I’m volunteering on my own time. (Though official US presence at other events is not unheard of, such as US troops in this year’s Bastille Day parade or, famously, in the Moscow VE Day parade couple of years ago, so I would not rule out US troops showing up somewhere in Canada). As mentioned, the American M60 is a museum piece, the museum (run by a Canadian armored regiment) has more vehicles than people to crew them. As a qualified US tank commander, I will be helping them out. Which begs the follow-on question. As someone who is volunteering to go to Canada to run a tank in their Remembrance Day 11NOV18 event, am I more likely to be arguing that a US military parade on 11NOV18 is a good idea because I think it's a good idea, or because I like Trump?

Chips Lovell

More cards have been issued and posts deleted for ignoring the forum charter

Christy42

Manic Moran wrote: »

UsedToWait wrote: »

You're trying to impute meaning to what was, undoubtedly, a hare-brained Trump scheme to match the pagentary he saw in Paris on Bastille Day, and the military parades of his paymaster in Moscow.

No, I’m not. The reason why an idea is proposed does not inherently mean it is a bad idea. Refusing to consider an idea for what it does simply because of the person (or motivations of) the person who proposed it is a perfect example of bias and partisanship at its height.

Is it truly hare-brained? When a good third of the Irish military marched through Dublin two years ago, was it a terrible idea? Is the Bastille day military parade without redeeming merit in and of itself? Is your primary objection to what was going to have been turned into a commemoration of US troops in general and their involvement in WW1 specifically that in addition to making that commemoration it will have also boosted Trump’s ego? I personally don’t care about Trump’s ego. I don’t see why you should either. Why should we not take advantage of a presented opportunity and do some good with it?

Do you, as a vet, not find it appallingly hypocritical for him to talk about pay cuts for vets when he dodged the draft 5 times?

Certainly not enough to warrant my spending any brain cells on it before now. My LESs are not signed by “daft dodger trump”, “war hero bush” or “generally neutral Obama”. I would have thought that the objections to the plan would have been the same regardless of who proposed it. I don’t view his policies on policing, healthcare or forestry any differently because of his backgrounds there either. They are good ideas, or they ar

Because, as has been shown by the willingness to change the date, he just wants a military parade. Ireland had one because of the rising. France because of Bastille day. If for some reason those days were impossible to honour with a military parade we would not have had them.

When it was cancelled due to cost the priority was when else can we have our military parade. Not how else can we honour those who fought in WW1 100 years ago.

The difference we saw important dates were coming up and had military parades on them to honour them. The US is having a military parade and is trying to find a day to tack it onto.

Nah not partisanship, just anti Trump from experience. Same way if a school kid spends 100 days messing in class he won't get the benefit of the doubt in the 101st day from teachers.

Christy42

Not sure if this was reported already but I seemed to miss it.

https://news.sky.com/story/trump-tape-recorded-by-aide-omarosa-manigault-newman-shows-president-is-a-puppet-11471754

Trump did not want Omarosa fired. Nor did he know much about what was happening. Incredible how little control he has over his own house.

badtoro

aloyisious wrote: »

The D-Day landings 75th would be good, particularly as it could be used to mend fences with traditional European allies

They could do a dramatics piece honouring the resistance movements, maybe a scene where they catch a collaborator and dispatch them by summary justice. Whoever would play the bad guy.

Leroy42

Christy42 wrote: »

Not sure if this was reported already but I seemed to miss it.

https://news.sky.com/story/trump-tape-recorded-by-aide-omarosa-manigault-newman-shows-president-is-a-puppet-11471754

Trump did not want Omarosa fired. Nor did he know much about what was happening. Incredible how little control he has over his own house.

Oh please, of course he knew. What a pathetic and snivilling coward the man really is. 'I didn't know, just saw on the news', and the best bit the "Damn" at the end as if he was so annoyed at the injustice of it all.

If he didn't know they why not call Kelly into his office, this is a man that likes complete control after all, and demand she be taken back? I mean, he is POTUS and can seemingly do anything he likes. Are we really supposed to believe that Kelly would not accept it? But he accept his boss siding with Putin over the FBI?

And how does one reconcile his twitter statements about her being a total failure, a dog etc with this phonecall? The man is a two faced coward. And yet we are supposed to believe that he stood up to Putin and Kim face to face?

amandstu

Christy42 wrote: »

Not sure if this was reported already but I seemed to miss it.

https://news.sky.com/story/trump-tape-recorded-by-aide-omarosa-manigault-newman-shows-president-is-a-puppet-11471754

Trump did not want Omarosa fired. Nor did he know much about what was happening. Incredible how little control he has over his own house.

I would say Kelly was trying to bounce him into it but Trump will fire Kelly if he feels he is not in charge.

Tbh I would prefer him to be a puppet of the WH rather than foreign or commercial interests.

edit: Leroy42 's angle seems more plausible:the man has a lying (and a scornful) reflex.

StringerBell

That's it, the longer time goes on the clearer and clearer it becomes for anybody still in any doubt.

He is nothing but your pathetic archetypal bully coward.

All he ever was, all he ever will be for the time he has left. It's the same schtick everytime from him.

America is pretty screwed tbh, how can you reconcile patriotism with support for this guy who gives not one **** about anything other than himself and short term adulation?

Simple enough I suppose really, the full reversal on Russia from the conservatives/Republicans is almost complete at this point. No longer the enemy, a future ally in the war on the colour and religious freedom. The polls back this up.

A good white nation sure, what's not for white supremacists to like? Intolerant to minorities, sexual preference etc. Right up their alley

aloyisious

badtoro wrote: »

They could do a dramatics piece honouring the resistance movements, maybe a scene where they catch a collaborator and dispatch them by summary justice. Whoever would play the bad guy.

A simple head-shaving might be appropriate.

pixelburp

Manic Moran wrote: »

With respect, the entire line of argument, both now and a few months ago when it first came up, has been “it is a bad idea because Trump came up with it to fuel his ego”. Certainly the mechanics of merits of a parade in itself have not been greatly argued, probably because enough other countries, including Ireland, have found ways to afford to do them, with great popular support.

Thing is, you say that like it's a bad thing, and the argument many - including myself - would make is that YES, it's a bad idea precisely because it's fluffing a man's ego after being impressed at all the whizzbang military hardware on show during Bastille Day.

We can't take these passing decisions in isolation outside of the behaviour and broader temperament of the man making these pronouncements at that. Context is everything here. Trump is a wannabe dictator. No, no. Wait, let's be fair, he's a CEO who ruled his business like a king & knows no other way to run a 'business' - which many would say is how a government should be run. Ergo he's trying to just call the shots in the only way he knows how - which anyone would do this out of their depth, yet too arrogant to defer to experts' help.

Fuelling Donald Trumps ego is not a smart play, in any context and from any perspective of political leaning. If realistically America has to put up with him until 2020 then the tactic taken, by those moderates who see Trumps affectations as the flailing of an individual suffering from Arrested Development, is surely to simply isolate him. Let him make these silly ideas, then quietly nuke them once he makes an a$$ of himself 5 days later.

Keeping the military theme, here's a fun one that ties into the worrying idea of letting the President indulge in military bravado: Trump is reportedly keen on the idea of 'privatising' the war in Afghanistan.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/officials-worry-trump-may-back-erik-prince-plan-privatize-war-n901401

This quote however is particularly chilling (emphasis mine), regardless of political stripe, as it is truly the desire of an autocrat - the thing Americans supposedly go to great lengths to announce hatred of:

Prince's idea, which first surfaced last year during the president's Afghanistan strategy review, envisions replacing troops with private military contractors who would work for a special U.S. envoy for the war who would report directly to the president.

A war, fought by a private corporation, whose authority comes directly from a president with demonstrable decision making issues?

I don't care if Kennedy himself directed troops during the Bay of Pigs, Donald Trump running his own private war, with no legal roadblocks, is a terrifying idea.

amandstu

aloyisious wrote: »

A simple head-shaving might be appropriate.

The head shaving also was carried out on prisoners in the concentration camps,wasn't it?... no connection to the way collaborators were punished in France after the war.

It is a very symbolic shaming anyway .

aloyisious

amandstu wrote: »

The head shaving also was carried out on prisoners in the concentration camps,wasn't it?... no connection to the way collaborators were punished in France after the war.

It is a very symbolic shaming anyway .

Going off thread track here. Yes head shaving was done in the camps, for several reasons, stuffing material and anti-lice measure. Same reason the short back and sides haircut came into practice in the military - an attempt in reduction of infection in closely confined troops in the trenches. Yup on your last to some-one with an ego who cares about his public persona.

Cheerful Spring

Anyone see this CIA agent Phil Mudd losing it on CNN.

##Mod Note##

Please don't just link dump

Kermit.de.frog

My theory is that Donald Trump is, in fact, a comedian and it's all an act.

How else can it be explained?

Either that or he is actually stupid. Think about it, does anyone here know anyone in their own lives that behaves as unbelievably stupid and ignorant as this man?

To me it doesn't seem possible to be this child like!

BonnieSituation

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Anyone see this CIA agent Phil Mudd losing it on CNN.

##Mod Note##

Please don't just link dump

It's hardly a link dump. He actually did lose it. It's worth a watch. And putting the link back. Paris Dennard is particularly easy to lose it to I would say.

StringerBell

He is stupid. He has simply been told all his life he's great and has had daddy's money to bail him out of all his bad decision's, the sheer amount of bankruptcies attest to that. He is also so narcissistic he always believes he knows best.

He gas never really had to deal with a consequence for his whole life or with people challenging him that he cannot simply dismiss.

He is however experienced and tuned in to how reality TV works and knows how to perform

StringerBell

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's hardly a link dump. He actually did lose it. It's worth a watch. And putting the link back. Paris Dennard is particularly easy to lose it to I would say.

Absolutely, another head wrecker.

One thing I find amusing is how often people who tell others to watch things other than CNN seem to watch CNN

Leroy42

It is amazing how little blow fact Trump has had to face in regards of the quite incredible action he took yesterday. He came out and stated that Manafort is a great guy and it terrible how he is being treated. This whilst a jury is deliberating the verdict?

Manaforts lawyer even came out to say it was great to have POTUS support!

Basically he is trying to influence a jury!

And for what? A man on trial for tax evasion? Why would any POTUS be getting involved in a tax fraud case. If anything he should be looking to more of them so that MAGA could push ahead.