Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

Captain Obvious

Celticfire wrote: »

Didn't you get the memo? Evidently the problem in the US, that was actually hiding under your noses is White Males. Why anyone would want to cross the border into a place that is under such a threat by White Males I don't know.

You appear intent on being offended. White men are not the issue, it's a particular segment of that group. In the same way that Muslims are not a problem but extremists are.

Celticfire

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You appear intent on being offended. White men are not the issue, it's a particular segment of that group. In the same way that Muslims are not a problem but extremists are.

I'm not offended in any way at all. You say it's a particular segment of groups that are the problem and you are completely correct. My point that I'll reiterate is that a poster said that Don Lemon demonized a whole group, White Males. Instead of saying that Lemon was wrong posters went into defensive mode defending Lemon using the same tactics of blanket labelling that they give out about themselves.

Captain Obvious

Celticfire wrote: »

I'm not offended in any way at all. You say it's a particular segment of groups that are the problem and you are completely correct. My point that I'll reiterate is that a poster said that Don Lemon demonized a whole group, White Males. Instead of saying that Lemon was wrong posters went into defensive mode defending Lemon using the same tactics of blanket labelling that they give out about themselves.

He said white men radicalised to the right.

everlast75

Celticfire wrote: »

I'm not offended in any way at all. You say it's a particular segment of groups that are the problem and you are completely correct. My point that I'll reiterate is that a poster said that Don Lemon demonized a whole group, White Males. Instead of saying that Lemon was wrong posters went into defensive mode defending Lemon using the same tactics of blanket labelling that they give out about themselves.

You see, the fact that you jumped on that point, that Lemon should not demonized a particular group, in this case white males, was wrong.

However, Trump et al have been demonizing whole groups of people, middle easterners, blacks, mexicans, muslims and you haven't said diddly squat.

So now you get my point. You, like another poster earlier, have selective outrage, that outrage coming out only when your kind is "demonized" and yet you said and continue to say nothing when others are treated the same, according to you.

That is how I reached the conclusion that you must think white = good, and brown/black = bad, as you only react in relation to the former "injustice".

You don't however get the nuance, which is that the others are minorities, are in a weaker position, cannot defend themselves, all while powerful white males in the Administration, including the actual President, is inciting hatred towards them. White americans are not in the minority in the US, they are not in weak positions, they are not targeted for abuse by government agencies, nor are the discriminated against when voting or applying for jobs, or racially profiled by police.

But do you know what? I've found that Trump and his supporters hate victims, unless of course they are playing the part of one.

pixelburp

Celticfire wrote: »

I'm not offended in any way at all. You say it's a particular segment of groups that are the problem and you are completely correct. My point that I'll reiterate is that a poster said that Don Lemon demonized a whole group, White Males. Instead of saying that Lemon was wrong posters went into defensive mode defending Lemon using the same tactics of blanket labelling that they give out about themselves.

But Don Lemon was not saying this, in fact it's quite straightforward what his point was, albeit told through hyperbole that Lemon is partial to. To suggest he was demonising a whole ethnic group (which, you know, 'white' isn't anyway) is reductionist, and ignores the broad point in favour of whataboutery.

White, right-leaning white folks - with guns - pose a far more immediate threat to American internal safety than the teeming masses South of the border; yet to listen to Fox News you'd think this is the barbarians at the gate territory (indeed one commentator theorised ISIS might be sneaking in from within the caravans), all the while the conversations about gun control remain unexplored.

Here he is again reiterating the point, radicalised white-men (and let's not put to fine a point on it, these are often White nationalists and, as seen this week, anti-semites)

https://twitter.com/CNNTonight/status/1057845771020587009

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think it's a bit more simple than that. They claim they have a credible witness and they then get the press to pick up a 'story' of someone being paid to make accusations. A story they've planted themselves. They can then point to the whole thing as the MSM trying to discredit their 'witness' by inventing a story about paid witnesses.

And of course they can then claim that their 'witness who's completely credible and believable' has been discouraged from coming forward because of what the press did. So they never have to produce a witness and can allow the story take flight and thus discredit Mueller without proving anything.

And here's the smoking gun.

And as I predicted, the woman concerned is not going to appear at the press conference because...


Photo has been identified as having been taken at LAX Terminal 7 by a Bellingcat analyst.

Dannyriver

prawnsambo wrote: »

And as I predicted, the woman concerned is not going to appear at the press conference because...


Photo has been identified as having been taken at LAX Terminal 7 by a Bellingcat analyst.

Good call.

everlast75

keystone cops stuff



https://twitter.com/HoarseWisperer/status/1058026563717992448

prawnsambo

I wonder will the FBI be presemt at this press conference? Will save them a lot of time chasing up the cullprits.

Celticfire

everlast75 wrote: »

You see, the fact that you jumped on that point, that Lemon should not demonized a particular group, in this case white males, was wrong.

However, Trump et al have been demonizing whole groups of people, middle easterners, blacks, mexicans, muslims and you haven't said diddly squat.

So now you get my point. You, like another poster earlier, have selective outrage, that outrage coming out only when your kind is "demonized" and yet you said and continue to say nothing when others are treated the same, according to you.

That is how I reached the conclusion that you must think white = good, and brown/black = bad, as you only react in relation to the former "injustice".

You don't however get the nuance, which is that the others are minorities, are in a weaker position, cannot defend themselves, all while powerful white males in the Administration, including the actual President, is inciting hatred towards them. White americans are not in the minority in the US, they are not in weak positions, they are not targeted for abuse by government agencies, nor are the discriminated against when voting or applying for jobs, or racially profiled by police.

But do you know what? I've found that Trump and his supporters hate victims, unless of course they are playing the part of one.

Actually it was another poster that made that point but the reaction was to double down and actually say that White Males are a major threat in the US.
That is the double standard I called out.

I've seen enough in this forum and all of the points that you have raised above have been addressed in one form or another. Some by myself and others by different folks. Not once have I seen a concession to a point raised by someone putting forward an argument . Not an inch or even saying "yeah you might have a point". Nope fully entrenched and willing to defend the hatred of Trump to the end. Nothing I or anyone else will ever say on this thread will change that.

I asked why a poster here described a group in a way that no other group would be allowed to be described...…. But Trump does it! Is the answer it seems. Does that somehow make it right? Everything is Racist is the go-to defence when anything to do with borders or immigration comes up. It's a lazy argument that if one doesn't agree with your views you can at least fall back on insinuating that they are a Racist. Are you one of these people that thinks only whites can be Racist?

One can't even point out how the previous administration did some of the same things and had the same policies that nobody gave a damn about then without the "But Obama" trope thrown out.

Captain Obvious

Celticfire wrote: »

Actually it was another poster that made that point but the reaction was to double down and actually say that White Males are a major threat in the US.
That is the double standard I called out.

I've seen enough in this forum and all of the points that you have raised above have been addressed in one form or another. Some by myself and others by different folks. Not once have I seen a concession to a point raised by someone putting forward an argument . Not an inch or even saying "yeah you might have a point". Nope fully entrenched and willing to defend the hatred of Trump to the end. Nothing I or anyone else will ever say on this thread will change that.

I asked why a poster here described a group in a way that no other group would be allowed to be described...…. But Trump does it! Is the answer it seems. Does that somehow make it right? Everything is Racist is the go-to defence when anything to do with borders or immigration comes up. It's a lazy argument that if one doesn't agree with your views you can at least fall back on insinuating that they are a Racist. Are you one of these people that thinks only whites can be Racist?

One can't even point out how the previous administration did some of the same things and had the same policies that nobody gave a damn about then without the "But Obama" trope thrown out.

He did not say white males are a major threat. He said the threat was primarily from white males on the far right. There's a very big difference in those two. he was pointing out the hypocrisy of people who fear foreigners and want to ban entire nationalities when no similar ideas are put forward for the group that produces more attacks.

Dannyriver

Celticfire wrote: »

Actually it was another poster that made that point but the reaction was to double down and actually say that White Males are a major threat in the US.
That is the double standard I called out.

I've seen enough in this forum and all of the points that you have raised above have been addressed in one form or another. Some by myself and others by different folks. Not once have I seen a concession to a point raised by someone putting forward an argument . Not an inch or even saying "yeah you might have a point". Nope fully entrenched and willing to defend the hatred of Trump to the end. Nothing I or anyone else will ever say on this thread will change that.

I asked why a poster here described a group in a way that no other group would be allowed to be described...…. But Trump does it! Is the answer it seems. Does that somehow make it right? Everything is Racist is the go-to defence when anything to do with borders or immigration comes up. It's a lazy argument that if one doesn't agree with your views you can at least fall back on insinuating that they are a Racist. Are you one of these people that thinks only whites can be Racist?

One can't even point out how the previous administration did some of the same things and had the same policies that nobody gave a damn about then without the "But Obama" trope thrown out.

Of course every country needs to protect its borders and the previous administration did some of the same things however they did not use divisive language when discussing borders and made it very clear that this was not a race issue by being extremely clear about their reasons and aims. Trump has used jingoistic and triumphalist language at all stages which has had a serious impact on ordinary hard working US citizens who happen to be minorities. The above is indisputable.

everlast75

Celticfire wrote: »

Actually it was another poster that made that point but the reaction was to double down and actually say that White Males are a major threat in the US.
That is the double standard I called out.

I've seen enough in this forum and all of the points that you have raised above have been addressed in one form or another. Some by myself and others by different folks. Not once have I seen a concession to a point raised by someone putting forward an argument . Not an inch or even saying "yeah you might have a point". Nope fully entrenched and willing to defend the hatred of Trump to the end. Nothing I or anyone else will ever say on this thread will change that.

I asked why a poster here described a group in a way that no other group would be allowed to be described...…. But Trump does it! Is the answer it seems. Does that somehow make it right? Everything is Racist is the go-to defence when anything to do with borders or immigration comes up. It's a lazy argument that if one doesn't agree with your views you can at least fall back on insinuating that they are a Racist. Are you one of these people that thinks only whites can be Racist?

One can't even point out how the previous administration did some of the same things and had the same policies that nobody gave a damn about then without the "But Obama" trope thrown out.

As soon as you, or Trump, has a valid point, I'll say so.

It hasn't happened yet.

In the meantime, you still haven't voiced any objection to any of the blatant racism of Trump. Why do you have a problem doing so? Please explain.

"Oh my god - all you do is criticise Trump" - Well, as soon as he starts behaving like a half decent human being, I'll stop doing so. In the meantime, I'll call him out on it. I for one, have no problem doing that. Why don't you?

pixelburp

Celticfire wrote: »

Actually it was another poster that made that point but the reaction was to double down and actually say that White Males are a major threat in the US.
That is the double standard I called out.

Again, this is NOT what Lemon was saying though. He makes clear with his own follow-up, to quote "radicals on the far right, primarily white men". It's pretty clear what he means and there are no double standards at play. Yet the (inter)national conversation is more interested in the threat of caravans or ISIS than the pretty easily identifiable terrorists living in the US.

Professor Moriarty

everlast75 wrote: »

As soon as you, or Trump, has a valid point, I'll say so.

It hasn't happened yet.

In the meantime, you still haven't voiced any objection to any of the blatant racism of Trump. Why do you have a problem doing so? Please explain.

"Oh my god - all you do is criticise Trump" - Well, as soon as he starts behaving like a half decent human being, I'll stop doing so. In the meantime, I'll call him out on it. I for one, have no problem doing that. Why don't you?

The idea that Trump and Obama are comparable is unfathomable. I can't think of two US politicians less alike.

Celticfire

Leroy42 wrote: »

You might well be pissed, but its a pretty clear fact.

Angry white men are a major source of threat to the US.

From armed militia groups (which are given a pass for some reason based on protection or some such nonsense) to school shootings, Las Vegas shooting, recent Pittsburgh shorting, Oklahoma bombing, Unabomber, the recent parcel bombs.

Whilst it may of course be a matter of argument just which class is the biggest threat (and that all comes down to the metrics used etc) there is no doubt that the white American male is a big problem within the US.

Captain Obvious wrote: »

He did not say white males are a major threat. He said the threat was primarily from white males on the far right. There's a very big difference in those two. he was pointing out the hypocrisy of people who fear foreigners and want to ban entire nationalities when no similar ideas are put forward for the group that produces more attacks.

This is the post I was addressing. And then to prove my point I asked if I described Muslims or Blacks in Chicago or even Mexican Males in Mexico using similar blanket type descriptions would that be acceptable?

WinnyThePoo

You've completely missed Leroy's point. I'm not sure how it could have been any clearer.

prawnsambo

Celticfire wrote: »

This is the post I was addressing. And then to prove my point I asked if I described Muslims or Blacks in Chicago or even Mexican Males in Mexico using similar blanket type descriptions would that be acceptable?

In the context of describing which group represents the greatest threats to US citizens, you could use any of the above descriptors if it were true. However, Lemon has said, quite correctly, that as of now, the group that he described have proven to be the biggest threat. He could have said 'American citizens', but that would be a bit too broad a descriptor.

swampgas

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

You've completely missed Leroy's point. I'm not sure how it could have been any clearer.

He doesn't want to understand Leroy's point, he wants to "win" the argument.

He's never going to admit he's wrong either. That would be un-American.

2 Scoops

Captain Obvious wrote: »

He did not say white males are a major threat. He said the threat was primarily from white males on the far right. There's a very big difference in those two. he was pointing out the hypocrisy of people who fear foreigners and want to ban entire nationalities when no similar ideas are put forward for the group that produces more attacks.

That's not what he said actually.

“I keep trying to point out to people not to demonize any one group or any one ethnicity, but we keep thinking that the biggest terror threat is something else," Lemon said. "Some people who are marching towards the border like it’s imminent. And the last time they did this, a couple of hundred people came and they, you know, most of them didn’t get into the country. Most of them got tuckered out before they even made it to the border,” Lemon told his CNN colleague. “So we have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them.”

I'll await with baited breath for Lemon to ever bring up the fact that black men in the US are responsible for over 50% of homicides but only make up 7% of the population.

Professor Moriarty

2 Scoops wrote: »

That's not what he said actually.

“I keep trying to point out to people not to demonize any one group or any one ethnicity, but we keep thinking that the biggest terror threat is something else," Lemon said. "Some people who are marching towards the border like it’s imminent. And the last time they did this, a couple of hundred people came and they, you know, most of them didn’t get into the country. Most of them got tuckered out before they even made it to the border,” Lemon told his CNN colleague. “So we have to stop demonizing people and realize the biggest terror threat in this country is white men, most of them radicalized to the right, and we have to start doing something about them.”

I'll await with baited breath for Lemon to ever bring up the fact that black men in the US are responsible for over 50% of homicides but only make up 7% of the population.

You missed his use of the word 'terror'.

prawnsambo

Is this the start of another roll up?

everlast75

Ah 2scoops!

I've asked Celtic and await his reply.

In the meantime, any chance you could condemn the hateful, racist speak of Donald?

I'm trying to get a handle on whether all of his supporters don't seem to have a problem with that kinda talk is all.

2 Scoops

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

You missed his use of the word 'terror'.

In a country where the majority is made up of whites, his comment is nothing short of inflammatory and idiotic. Statistically speaking it's somewhat normal. If Lemon had phrased his point better then nobody would have batted an eyelid. Read the way he said it, again and again if you're missing it.

You know full well if a news host went on TV tonight and repeated verbatim what Lemon said about blacks and violent crime that person wouldn't be on the air again, even though statistically speaking it's a huge anomaly.

Lemon is a clown, not because of his skin colour. Listen to the guy once in a while, he's not intellectually clever but tries to convey a sense of superiority that his intellect doesn't match - his only worth is to preside over shouting matches each night for people screaming at how evil Trump is.

batgoat

2 Scoops wrote: »

In a country where the majority is made up of whites, his comment is nothing short of inflammatory and idiotic. Statistically speaking it's somewhat normal. If Lemon had phrased his point better then nobody would have batted an eyelid. Read the way he said it, again and again if you're missing it.

You know full well if a news host went on TV tonight and repeated verbatim what Lemon said about blacks and violent crime that person wouldn't be on the air again, even though statistically speaking it's a huge anomaly.

Lemon is a clown, not because of his skin colour. Listen to the guy once in a while, he's not intellectually clever but tries to convey a sense of superiority that his intellect doesn't match - his only worth is to preside over shouting matches each night for people screaming at how evil Trump is.

Would you be outraged if I said radical right wing white men were the issue in 1930s Germany? We've had one attempted terror attack and one successful terror stem in the list two weeks in the US. Their motivations align with the rhetoric that Trump espouses. Both perpetrated by far right white males.

I would also say that you will find plenty of conspiracies on the likes of the The_Donald on Reddit that align with the views of these guys. Eg George Soros commandeering the caravan... Plus we've got militias from across the US planning to man the boarder as if it's a bloody civil war.

And this is just the last two weeks...

Christy42

So how many pages not discussing Trump are we on here?

It gets tiring. Trump is sending troops to the border about a month before anything is meant to happen. He has already demonized this group of migrants.

He has blamed the media for terrorists who were encouraged by Trump's own words. Even after it was obvious his rhetoric is an issue he doubled down on the "fake news".

White males are not the main problem in the US. Right wing terrorists do seem to be the major threat (these migrants, however much they dress them up as the boogeyman are not). Part of the problem is that Trump only highlights crimes by immigrants (who generally commit less crimes than Americans). An illegal immigrant shoots someone and I guarantee he will talk about it till the cows come home. Silence if the attacker is white.

Militia groups are not unique to Trump but they are a nutty situation. At best they are some overly enthusiastic cosplayers. At worst they are an armed force with questionable motives, no serious connection to the US chain of command and little oversight within America's own borders. There is no benefit to them and a lot of risk some go of and do something stupid.

Celticfire

Christy42 wrote: »

So how many pages not discussing Trump are we on here?

It gets tiring. Trump is sending troops to the border about a month before anything is meant to happen. He has already demonized this group of migrants.

So what should he do? Just let thousands of individuals that are approx 80% males under the age of 35 cross the border unimpeded? 14 thousand this time... how many the next time? And the time after that? I hear a lot of giving out but I don't see any solutions being suggested. Also offers from Mexico for asylum and employment have been turned down because America is the dream.
What about the second caravan that doesn't want to join the first one because they are too peaceful? They were involved in clashes at the Mexican border that resulted in one being killed. Should they also just be let wander in?

2 Scoops

Celticfire wrote: »

So what should he do? Just let thousands of individuals that are approx 80% males under the age of 35 cross the border unimpeded? 14 thousand this time... how many the next time? And the time after that?

Didn't you know, they're all just peaceful people. The idea that there might be criminals within the group is a conspiracy. That's what the TV talking heads told me.

BabyCheeses

batgoat wrote: »

Would you be outraged if I said radical right wing white men were the issue in 1930s Germany? We've had one attempted terror attack and one successful terror stem in the list two weeks in the US. Their motivations align with the rhetoric that Trump espouses. Both perpetrated by far right white males.

I would also say that you will find plenty of conspiracies on the likes of the The_Donald on Reddit that align with the views of these guys. Eg George Soros commandeering the caravan... Plus we've got militias from across the US planning to man the boarder as if it's a bloody civil war.

And this is just the last two weeks...

You're missing one. There was the guy targeting black people, the guy targeting jews, and the MAGAbomber.



These people have nothing in common and we should look to the real threat, the jewish lead mexicans coming towards the border. Trump wants to send more troops to the border than are in Afghanistan.

Christy42

Celticfire wrote: »

Christy42 wrote: »

So how many pages not discussing Trump are we on here?

It gets tiring. Trump is sending troops to the border about a month before anything is meant to happen. He has already demonized this group of migrants.

So what should he do? Just let thousands of individuals that are approx 80% males under the age of 35 cross the border unimpeded? 14 thousand this time... how many the next time? And the time after that? I hear a lot of giving out but I don't see any solutions being suggested. Also offers from Mexico for asylum and employment have been turned down because America is the dream.
What about the second caravan that doesn't want to join the first one because they are too peaceful? They were involved in clashes at the Mexican border that resulted in one being killed. Should they also just be let wander in?

Thought there was nothing wrong with being male? So why is 80% male bad?

No they should just not be let wander in. Has there been no border security in the US? I mean they are not hard to track.

Does it take a month for us troops (10000-15000 thousand of them) to get down there. Are they that slow?

I am pretty sure they could get set up in two weeks if they half as good as their press. Of course that wouldn't send a message before mid terms. Let's be honest those soldiers are a political tool. It is a play for his base like everything else.

Little will happen for ages with this and the people will be stopped and processed at the border.

They may need more border guards and some assistance but a rag tag mob of militia and an army is a little over kill.

He should also stop trying to encourage right wing terrorists while he is at it. You know the people who recently murdered 11 people and attempted to kill a load of us politicians.