Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

2 Scoops

Captain Obvious wrote: »

The onus of proof is not on the accuser. The onus of proof is on the prosecutor. All that an accuser should worry about is giving a truthful account.

I'm obviously talking about her and her team of lawyers. They've provided nothing which corroborates her account.

As to Trump and Fox News and their coordinated attack on Ford, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that either the FBI have found something that has them worried or they don't think the investigation will get them their senate votes so they've changed tactic to attack the victim.

Conspiracy nonsense. The mainstream media have been attacking Trump since he was the front runner.

What's she a victim of exactly?

Captain Obvious

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

RTE Trump attack fail, who writes this headline grabbing thrash...



Eh no, they changed the rules so all staff regardless of sexual orientation must be married in order for their partner to get a visa...




#PutARingOnItYeSnowflakeite

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2018/1003/1000580-us-diplomatic-visas/

But it will affect same sex couples in a way it won't affect others.

Igotadose

Leroy42 wrote: »

Trump had massive rallies leading up to 2016, yet still lost the popular vote. So size of rallies does not link but size of vote.

Hey, Trump lied about his rally size and used Cleveland Cavalier's championship parade photos to pad at least 1 rally attendance!

Plus the arenas he 'filled' might not have been filled. Biggest inaugural crowd ever, though, right? :P

Water John

Now we're right around to Trump's tax issues again. NYT has a major investigation into his fathers real estate fortune and its transfer to his children. They paid an effective tax rate of 5% as opposed to 55% by consistently undervaluing the properties.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/02/trump-helped-parents-hide-money-on-tax-returns-new-york-times

Trump Snr also bailed out Trump Jnr when his casino was in trouble.
' His father, the Times reported, sent to the casino “a trusted bookkeeper” with a check for $3.35m. The emissary bought $3.35m in chips and left without placing a bet. The same day, Trump Sr wrote another check, for $150,000, to the casino in question.

“It was an illegal $3.5m loan under New Jersey gaming laws, resulting in a $65,000 civil penalty,” the Times notes.'

Christy42

2 Scoops wrote: »

Christy42 wrote: »

There is no proof she is lying

That's not how it works. Onus of proof is on the accuser and it worries me people are taking this view, imo it's radical and Stalinist. She put herself in the public spotlight with zero evidence or collaboration, what did you expect would happen.

People in public debate get death threats, it's wrong but out of our control, look at Ted Cruz's office today with two people hospitalized by powder in the post or the Ricin that ended up in the pentagon this morning addressed to Mattis and Trump.

It is how it works if you want to ruin her life.

People take the stance that you assume the accused innocent so you assume the accuser's guilt. You give out about those assuming Kavanagh's guilt and yet Trump is assuming Ford's guilt with no proof behind him either (not that evidence has ever been an issue for him).

I am not saying convict Kavanagh on no evidence but mocking her in front of supporters when you know what she has been through is simply disgusting and horrific. He could have simply stuck to believing in the process and denouncing death threats instead of simply ignoring them. Public officials should not be encouraging and joining those mocking people who come forward about abuse.

As for what did she expect to happen. You are right what else could she expect. The best thing for her and her family would have been to simply not report the rape. What else did she expect to happen is indeed the message being passed on to those who have been sexually abused.

Professor Moriarty

2 Scoops wrote: »

I'm obviously talking about her and her team of lawyers. They've provided nothing which corroborates her account.



Conspiracy nonsense. The mainstream media have been attacking Trump since he was the front runner.

What's she a victim of exactly?

Mainstream media? Where do you get your trustworthy news from?

Leroy42

I welcome the fact that Trump supporters now want clear and unambiguous evidence before making any decisions.

Pity they didn't take that approach with HC, or Obama, or Trumps claims about Ted Cruz father.

But this new found adherence to the principle of innocent until proven guilty is to be welcomed.

FreudianSlippers

2 Scoops wrote: »

What's she a victim of exactly?

Assault. Sexual assault.

Captain Obvious

Christy42 wrote: »

It is how it works if you want to ruin her life.

People take the stance that you assume the accused innocent so you assume the accuser's guilt. You give out about those assuming Kavanagh's guilt and yet Trump is assuming Ford's guilt with no proof behind him either (not that evidence has ever been an issue for him).

I am not saying convict Kavanagh on no evidence but mocking her in front of supporters when you know what she has been through is simply disgusting and horrific. He could have simply stuck to believing in the process and denouncing death threats instead of simply ignoring them. Public officials should not be encouraging and joining those mocking people who come forward about abuse.

As for what did she expect to happen. You are right what else could she expect. The best thing for her and her family would have been to simply not report the rape. What else did she expect to happen is indeed the message being passed on to those who have been sexually abused.

And despite the death threats, the POTUS mocking her to the world, having to reveal all in the most public of hearings, having to uproot her family, hire personal security and hearing all sorts said about her by Trump supporters, they will still ask "Why did she not come forward sooner?"

oscarBravo

2 Scoops wrote: »

Kavanaugh has nothing to prove.

Let's leave aside the Ford allegations for a moment.

Do you believe that every word Kavanaugh said in his Senate confirmation hearing was completely truthful?

mcmoustache

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

RTE Trump attack fail, who writes this headline grabbing thrash...



Eh no, they changed the rules so all staff regardless of sexual orientation must be married in order for their partner to get a visa...



https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2018/1003/1000580-us-diplomatic-visas/

You might have a point if gay marriage was available in as many jurisdictions as straight marriage. Unfortunately, it's not and you don't.

everlast75

It really is depressing.
If someone supports Trump, they cannot see him or admit that he is doing anything wrong.
They are in too deep.
There can be no "red line".
Trump called it when he spoke about shooting on 5th avenue.
Tax fraud? Doesn't matter, it shows cleverness
Mock a sexual assault victim? I don't believe her
He mocks a journalist? They deserve it #FakeNews
Lied about how he was a self made millionaire? Doesn't matter.

As I've said before, the simplest solution here would be to give him Texas or somewhere like that, have all his supporters join him there and watch as he sinks that economy too while they look on in adoration. At least the rest would be left alone and not dragged down with him

Rhineshark

Actually, her account is corroborated. Corroboration does not mean proof even under American law. It is facts that tend to support one argument over another.

- Kavanaugh's calender is actually corroborating evidence. A party on the first of July on a Thursday with the three people Ford named and a fourth she referenced (amother boy but couldn't recall the name). This does not corroborate Kavanaugh's insistence that the party must have taken place at a weekend when he was mostly out of town because they all had jobs. There is the party on a Thursday.

If it comes to that, that she named three of the four when Kavanaugh reckons he doesn't know her and they didn't move in the same circles us corroborating evidence in itself. It fits her story better than his although is not conclusive alone.

Various ex-classmates corroborated that he was a heavy and aggressive drinker, as did a police report - he wasn't arrested but he certainly contributed to it and appears to have made the first violent move. This leans more towards her story than his.

He named three Catholic girls schools they had contacts with. Ford's school is in the same catchment, very close to the country club. It would be a little odd if there was no contact given the unsupervised party atmosphere between 7 schools in the region (corroborated at the time by the headmasters if said schools).


All the words and phrases he changed the meaning of; he was part of a club notorious even at the time for drinking and keggery, it is really not credible that the leading contributed for "ralph king" while doing a keg challenge wad down to spicy food. Seriously?

17 jocks writing they are a Renate Alumni are not sweetly commemorating a female member of their group. Bull****.


Kavanaugh repeatedly lied about Ford's testimony and conflated "I don't know" with "It did not happen". This man is a judge going for the Supreme Court. Ordinary people being ignorant is one thing. This man is either supremely unqualified insofar as he does not know what he's talking about or he lied. Neither is a good look.

When a man being asked questions gets belligerent and evasive, it does not add credence to his story.

Also, who the hell writes down the names of all the girls they talked with constantly in alphabetical order and reads them out in tears?

Wanderer78

everlast75 wrote:

It really is depressing. If someone supports Trump, they cannot see him or admit that he is doing anything wrong. They are in too deep. There can be no "red line". Trump called it when he spoke about shooting on 5th avenue. Tax fraud? Doesn't matter, it shows cleverness Mock a sexual assault victim? I don't believe her He mocks a journalist? They deserve it #FakeNews Lied about how he was a self made millionaire? Doesn't matter.

Ah they ll eventually get him, patience is required, he ll leave a fine trail of destruction though

Penn

everlast75 wrote: »

It really is depressing.
If someone supports Trump, they cannot see him or admit that he is doing anything wrong.
They are in too deep.
There can be no "red line".
Trump called it when he spoke about shooting on 5th avenue.
Tax fraud? Doesn't matter, it shows cleverness
Mock a sexual assault victim? I don't believe her
He mocks a journalist? They deserve it #FakeNews
Lied about how he was a self made millionaire? Doesn't matter.

Don't forget "Obama did something almost half as bad as Trump, so that means they're as bad as each other!"

No it doesn't.

Billy Mays

Turns out Clinton wasn't wrong about that whole basket of deplorables thing after all

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

Folks, please, please read the charter about posting videos. We've already removed several video dumps this morning and one person has been carded for ignoring a mod warning and reposting a video. There's only so many polite warnings we can give.

Nody

Remember how NAFTA was "the worst deal in 30 years" yet Trump's new NAFTA deal is the best thing ever? Well as always with Trump the superlatives he gives to things tend to fall flat to reality and the reality of his new deal as analyzed by the major banks etc. is a big thumbs down. From a summary on CNBC of Merill Lynch's review of the new deal (you know, actual facts over claims):

But Bank of America Merrill Lynch told its clients some of the concessions in the new deal were "mainly symbolic," including the one Canada made for U.S. dairy farmers.

"The deal includes a small reduction in protectionism for Canada's dairy farmers," Bank of America Merrill Lynch global economist Ethan Harris said in a note to clients Tuesday. "Under the new USMCA, American dairy producers will have access to 3.59% of Canada's dairy market — slightly higher than the 3.25% they would have gotten had the US signed the Trans Pacific Partnership [TPP]."

Harris estimates the change will increase U.S. dairy exports to Canada by $70 million, or 0.0003 percent of GDP, compared to what they would have been under the TPP, from which the U.S. withdrew last year.

On top of this the trade dispute process was left untouched which Trump wanted to have removed; go Trump bestest deal ever!!1

aloyisious

2 Scoops wrote: »

There's no need for a "smoking gun". There's no evidence to support the allegations and the FBI statements will show that they were sent on a merry go round.

Kavanaugh has nothing to prove. All this testimony does is damage her credibility more, which I believe most honest people felt was already very low.

The question that arises now is how much credibility should be given to this Ex's letter which is attacking the Prof's credibility given how he didn't come forward with his story detailing his evidence after holding unto it for 6 years. How much credibility do you give it, seeing as so far it's as unvouched as the prof's story which you don't have much trust in?

Water John

Ah, once Trump gets a new name on deals, that is all that matters.
He simply wants to obliterate the legacy of OBama and the Clintons, also the Bushs for good measure.
This is about naming, the same as Trump Tower, like a dog marking its territory.

SimonTemplar

Rhineshark wrote: »

Also, who the hell writes down the names of all the girls they talked with constantly in alphabetical order and reads them out in tears?

It is part of the nonsense defense that some men use when accused of sexual assault. "I have loads of female friends. I have a wife and daughters. I have hired and promoted more women than anyone else." None of that in any way would indicate that a man is less likely to commit a sexual assault. It would be a pathetic line of defense for any man, but especially for a judge being considered for the supreme court if he thinks that genuinely helps his case.

rossie1977

2 Scoops wrote: »

Kavanaugh has nothing to prove. All this testimony does is damage her credibility more, which I believe most honest people felt was already very low.

And yet its funny in the minutes after finishing her testimony Hatch, Trump and the Fox News hosts were all calling Dr Ford credible.

So what happened in the mean time to damage her credibility?

Water John

Hatch called Dr. Ford an attractive witness. Got into bother with a female reporter challenging it. Changed it to pleasing.

relax carry on

Whatever your allegiances or who you believe on this case, Trump has just on this issue alone proved that he is at even the most basic level a failure as a human being. Openly mocking in front of hardcore supporters, someone who has claimed to be a victim of sexual assault shows a lack of just about everything. How is this creature POTUS? Just how many of his supporters are just like him or worse?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45727618

Water John

Kelley Anne Conway says she has been a victim, and I believe and emphatise with her. How can she be tone deaf to those taunts aimed at Dr. Ford?

Leroy42

Water John wrote: »

Kelley Anne Conway says she has been a victim, and I believe and emphatise with her. How can she be tone deaf to those taunts aimed at Dr. Ford?

ell, according to Trump and Trump supporters she deserves not belief or emphaty. She has provided no evidence, so we can simply ignore it and instead question why she didn't bring it up before and what is her motive for doing it now.

She is, therefore lying. I think that is how is goes

SimonTemplar

relax carry on wrote: »

Whatever your allegiances or who you believe on this case, Trump has just on this issue alone proved that he is at even the most basic level a failure as a human being. Openly mocking in front of hardcore supporters, someone who has claimed to be a victim of sexual assault shows a lack of just about everything. How is this creature POTUS? Just how many of his supporters are just like him or worse?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45727618

It is a sad picture isn't it - the US President mocking an alleged victim of sexual assault in front of laughing and clapping supporters despite just a few days ago saying she was credible.


And at this stage, I wouldn't even call them supporters. That behavior alone shows they are more akin to zealots.


One of the many problems with Trump is that he treats these rallies as a performance to feed his ego. You can tell he is in his element during them and is basically putting on a show for his audience.

Captain Obvious

Water John wrote: »

Kelley Anne Conway says she has been a victim, and I believe and emphatise with her. How can she be tone deaf to those taunts aimed at Dr. Ford?

She is a proven prolific liar and has shown herself to have no common decency so I do not blame anyone who does not take her on her word. I give her the benefit of the doubt though. I think it's even sadder that she was attacked and has been so warped by the company she keeps that her opinion is that women should just move on.

everlast75

oscarBravo wrote: »

Let's leave aside the Ford allegations for a moment.

Do you believe that every word Kavanaugh said in his Senate confirmation hearing was completely truthful?

I suspect Trump supporters in general will not answer that one question, because either the answer is "yes", which shows them to be either lying or gullible beyond reasoning, or "no" in which case they are tied into an argument that to lie under oath is no big deal, or that there are varying degrees.

In essence, your question is to the very heart of the matter, and so their answer to it is... they don't care.

LuckyLloyd

everlast75 wrote: »

I suspect Trump supporters in general will not answer that one question, because either the answer is "yes", which shows them to be either lying or gullible beyond reasoning, or "no" in which case they are tied into an argument that to lie under oath is no big deal, or that there are varying degrees.

In essence, your question is to the very heart of the matter, and so their answer to it is... they don't care.

That's it really. The actuality of the accusations don't matter in some respects (though they're very serious crimes if true) but everything about how he handled himself in that hearing falls way short of what would be expected for an appointee to an incredibly privileged and fundamental position for life. I don't buy his "Devil's Triangle" explanation for a single second, and I really didn't find him credible across the board. Obviously the sane thing would be for everyone to say "stop". Issue a statement about how the Senate draws no conclusions on the criminal respect of the complaints and notes that they should be handled via separate channels but that they cannot confirm Kavaunagh at this time. Trump should then bring forward some of the other options and restart the process.

But unfortunately sanity is in short supply. This purely about "winning" and nothing else.