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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,296 ✭✭✭✭ Cyrus


    Have to agree , my corner and Fitz's is basically the same and I'd say 70percent plus of new cars around (especially anything over 50k) is at least plug in hybrid and more usually fully electric (once the wagon of choice the xc90 goes full electric it'll be game over 🤣)

    Now it's easier for unrban dwellers to make the move but imo the change is already happening in a major way.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    Yeah, I don't know where Fitz is getting the talk that's anti uptake and the future of motoring part. I think he's arguing with himself. 😁 The change certainly is happening quickly and just by going on the number of EV's I see out and about it has really picked up over the last 18 months. Not just Teslas either. In my neck of the woods, while there were a couple of BMW i3's about and two i8's of all things*, and one neighbour of mine jumped in early with hybrids and then to a Leaf, now he's on a second series Leaf(which is a much nicer car. IMHO the best thing about driving the earlier Leaf was you didn't have to look at it), people seem to have gone straight from oil burners to full EV's. The Kona is one I see a lot around the place. Early adopters seem to go through the hybrid phase, current buyers are just jumpiing to EV's. In two years time, or less I could see ICE sales fall off a cliff. When people's PCP's are up, why would they buy an ICE? Prices have narrowed too. Roll on a couple more years and those same EV's will hit the used market en masse and ICE for personal motoring will start to look very old hat.

    Ireland is ideal for EV's anyway. I can't think of any EV for sale that can't get to anywhere in the nation on a single charge and even get back, or halfway back. We're also an urban/suburban population for the most part and the majority live in houses with driveways to plug in the car overnight. Our climate is mild too. I could understand resistance in places like the US, or Canada outside major cities because of the distances some people travel, but not in Ireland, or Europe in general. We do need a better charging infrastructure but that's improving quickly. Chalk and cheese compared to even a couple of years ago.



    *for all the chatter about Teslas being sloppily built, I found the i8 felt oddly tinny and delicate.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,012 ✭✭✭ Fitz II


    No arguments just discussions, and we are mostly in agreement in your last post Wibbs....maybe its a discussion with myself, sometimes feels like it is as the replies and tangents, dont seem to have anything to do with my posts, but look its a free form method of communication, like forum jazz 🤣

    As far as I can see the EV is now the go to car for Ireland (small country with actually pretty good infrastructure either Tesla or ESB, or Ionity). 836Bet wonders if in ten years they will be as common as 3 series. I say they already are. People wonder if they will be obsolete in 10 years cause they think the batteries are the same as in their phone or other white appliance.....ten year old nissan leafs and i3's are still going strong. Sure they loose some range ( a few percent) the early cars over time if you fast DC charge them a lot, but ICE cars loose power over time (and probably range too but nobody measures that)....thats older cars for you, if you want the latest and greatest you wont get it on the second hand market. Sure the older cars are not as advanced, but again thats the same for ICE cars but just at a slower pace because that technology is solidly into its decline phase.

    People wonder will they be repairable cause they are all electronics and software....they are already repairable, and if the uptake is this strong (which it is) there will be indies and specialists for older EV just as there is for older classic ICE cars. My point is they are easier to fix, cause you just replace the bits and reset the computers. This is unfamiliar in the ICE world where engine rebuilds are now seen as "easy" but recoding a car is seen as complex. That will change as time goes on. Look how easy it is to fix a computer now as opposed to in the 1980's or 70's.

    There is real competition in the market now and the acceleration of uptake is almost exponential to the point that for a person to buy a new car with an engine they would need to really be doing mega mileage every day or not have the ability to charge at home. Its charging at home that is the real game changer.....how much would you visit the petrol station if you car was full every day when you got into it....almost never for most people, and thats why the fast charging infrastructure is not half the issue (or advantage for Tesla) that most people think it is (in Ireland).

    EVs are expensive still, but all cars are expensive new. The budget end of the market is still in ICE. But the aim at the moment is to get the countries fleet electric which means concentrating and incentivising new car buyers. Before christmas got a old i3 for my wife second hand.. Easiest purchase of my life. Hit a few buttons make sure the battery is within spec, everything works...good off you go. They dont need service so service history is irrelevant. Mileage, battery and tyres are all you need to know. Dealers love em, cause they dont require preparation more than cleaning.

    I see people a lot in this discussion thinking that EV's in ireland are still for early adopters....we are out of that phase and well into the Early Majority where pragmatistic (I would include myself in that group, for the longest time nobody could get me away from my petrol, (unkle will attest to that) either). You can judge where you are yourself on the graph....but that where you are, nothing else.


    Once HGV's move to hydrogen the ICE engine will be a thing of the past, for collectors, and enthusiasts only. Just like the horse.





  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    People wonder will they be repairable cause they are all electronics and software....they are already repairable, and if the uptake is this strong (which it is) there will be indies and specialists for older EV just as there is for older classic ICE cars. My point is they are easier to fix, cause you just replace the bits and reset the computers. This is unfamiliar in the ICE world where engine rebuilds are now seen as "easy" but recoding a car is seen as complex. That will change as time goes on. Look how easy it is to fix a computer now as opposed to in the 1980's or 70's.

    Again you're using a really bad example for your position. Computers have become less fixable and upgradable over time. That's undeniable. Try repairing/upgrading a ten year old laptop, or phone with new parts from the manufacturers. If you can get the parts it'll be easier to repair and upgrade than a brand new one. A computer of the 80's and 90's and well into the 00's was more modular, upgradable and easier to fix. Now they're essentially all in one throwaway sealed units and getting more that way with each product release. Apple stuff being the extreme example of that, where the spec is what you buy at source and good luck if you want to fix/upgrade ram, HD capacity, battery etc, but they have a tendency to lead in such things(though at one time guaranteed spares supply for ten years).

    'Throwaway' is good for business. It's the basic operating procedure of many businesses including cars. And consumers of course. EG Phones from the Chinese brands are far easier to take apart and repair than an iPhone, but the product cycle and churn is not so different. I would say that smart phones accelerated this churn and outside of their direct market. When the iphone came out first one of the biggest reactions was; how much? Nobody will pay that for a phone. Until they did and then the phone company contracts kicked in to take the sting out of buying them outright. Now many, if not most people get a new phone every two years. A friend of mine is never off his and the battery starts to go south after one year so he upgrades accordingly. Now a large part, or at lease a percieved part is newer tech means better and that's the case, but the majority use their phones for phone stuff with a camera on top and never read or use the specs in the fine print. EV's are going to have at least some of that going on too.

    Oh and in the ICE aftermarket world remapping, replacing and updating ECU's and the like has long been seen as easier than engine rebuilds. There's a big industry in such systems and setups with companies like Haltech and the like. Indeed if I wanted to do an ECU upgrade it would be easier to find someone who knew their stuff there compared to getting someone to rebuild my engine properly. Much of this is down to the oily bits lasting much longer than in the past because of better materials and design, so far fewer mechanics outside of specialists would be doing engine rebuilds. Not so long ago a family car on 100,000 miles in old money was fecked mechanically. The Japanese changed that. Ironically as it happens given the crazy turnover and churn in their own domestic market.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,012 ✭✭✭ Fitz II


    I am interested in retro tech wibbs have loads of 1980s and 90s computers they are simple to fix and get parts for, strong market out there. New computers are super easy...apple is for noobs but you can still upgrade ram and storage but these are devices for people that are not technical really and designed as plug and play...that's what you get.. Easy fix an Apple device there is a shop on most streets. I have had screens replaced on 10 year old phone no problem so I am not getting you point here.


    Let's agree to keep the analogies out of it cause they send you off on tangents on the analogy rather than to actual topic at hand and we end up discussing your opinion on the tangent as if that then invalidates to topic analogised.


    Second paragraph you countered your own previous points. I cannot agree the oily bits are more reliable it's just you are more comfortable repairing them.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    apple is for noobs but you can still upgrade ram and storage

    I admire your boundless confidence in stating something that's so completely wrong. Nope I'm afraid you can't. The current M1 Macs come with what they come with at purchase. You can't upgrade the ram or storage. Not unless you want to break out the soldering iron, a microscope and a steady hand. You either spec it from new, or buy an entire board and swap it out. Hardly upgradeable. Their laptops have been like this for nigh on five years. Their imacs weren't much better, storage upgrades required separating the glued in(or magnets in earlier ones) screen from the case. The new ones, see above. The Right to Repair campainers must be doing it for the craic.

    I cannot agree the oily bits are more reliable it's just you are more comfortable repairing them.

    Nope. You seem to have this compulsion to read what you want to read, or somehow get confused, because it bears little resemblance to what I wrote. I wrote: "Much of this is down to the oily bits lasting much longer than in the past because of better materials and design, so far fewer mechanics outside of specialists would be doing engine rebuilds". If you think ICE engines haven't gotten more reliable overall I really don't know what to say. Again, nobody who actually had a clue about cars would say that, because it's a ridiculous statement. EV motors should be far more reliable again over time. Nobody is disputing that. I'm certainly not and said so previously. That would be a ridiculous statement too.

    As for my comfort in tackling such things; beyond basic oil and filter changes, which any moron could do, that's where my involvement stops. I wouldn't even think of trying to replace something 'simple' for a mechanic like a head gasket. I'd run screaming from the thoughts of an engine rebuild. However I would happily tackle an ECU swap if such a need ever occurred. I would be far more comfortable doing something involving the electronics.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    Funny enough on the collecting retro tech I've a few bits and bobs myself Fitz. From NASA chips for Apollo, to a Sinclair ZX81, Spectrum and a Welsh built 😁 Dragon 32 and a couple of handheld early 80's LED arcade games. Later stuff would be Apple's first Powerbook(prototype), a couple offirst series iMacs I had a notion to turn into terrariums or something, a first series Newton NOS in box(ohmigooood) and a couple of the school laptops they based on the Newton system, the Emate. This very eve...


    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    Very slick. 🙂 There's a black one lives near me. Very cool dash and the mirrors, or lack of them is cool too and surprisingly easy to get used to. Unreal turning circle.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,012 ✭✭✭ Fitz II


    Deadly Kev.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,739 ✭✭✭✭ Cienciano


    One near me, such a cool car. How are you finding it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭ Lorddrakul


    Did anyone catch the Fifth Great Recharged episode last night?

    There was a new EV from Chinese firm Neo. It had an automated battery change function. Like a car wash, you drive into a marked square and press the battery change button. When it is ready, you take your hands off the wheel and let it do the rest.

    In the booth, the battery pack is changed in less than five minutes.

    It is the future of EVs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,012 ✭✭✭ Fitz II


    Yeah I have seen this concept....honestly I dont see it, why not just pick up a different already charged car if you dont mind having the major part of your drivetrain swapped in and out?? It already only take 30 minutes to charge up for 3-4 hours driving, anyone that can take a sh1t, buy a coffee and check their email in less time is a hero......more than likely capacitors are the answer to super fast charging rather than swapping batteries.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    Yeah it seems like a solution to a non existent problem, though one that as been mooted for ages. Understandable when batteries could take hours to charge, not when they can take 20-30 minutes. Capacitors could well be in play down the line alright, or something similar.

    Plus to go the watch angle(albeit a bit left field) and what people actually want: Accuracy was the big thing for most of the history of personal timepieces. Then quartz came along* and brands went nuts with ever more crazy accurate and expensive watches. And bugger all people bought them. It turned out, other than oddballs, the vast majority were happy with a watch that was accurate to say a minute a month, or just didn't care. That was enough. They bought the new tech not because of accuracy, but because of convenience and that 'new normal'. I can see EV charging times just being accepted as the same new normal, because all the other advantages are so advantageous in every other way it matters less and less when it gets to a certain point. And that sweet spot IMHO is a charging time of half an hour or less. Set that 'inconvenience' against 90% of the time you car is charged overnight outside your gaff**, requires less maintenance and has all mod cons and is faster, quieter and better for the baby seals(with some caveats). If tomorrow a new EV came out with a charging time of 10 minutes, yes some would be oh this is fantastic and some would be lining up. Fine if it was around the same price as all the others, but if it cost half a million quid, not so much.




    *Like Jay Leno in his garage who drops in his McLaren F1 in every vid... 😁

    ** yep I can 'charge' my oil burner in ten minutes and yep it has greater range, but I have to go to a petrol station to do it. And it costs more. Now if I had minions in jumpsuits(of course) who filled my car with motion lotion while I slept for a fraction of the price, well I'd be signing up for that in short order. 😁 And on the rare occasions I had to wait for half an hour to fill up with petrol, little care would I give.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭ mailforkev


    Only picked it up this week so need a bit more time to give a proper review. But so far it’s great; pretty torquey, nimble handling and a really comfortable ride. It’s a fun drive.

    Gadget laden, am still playing around with that stuff. 360 degree and wing mirror cameras are novelties but actually good.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,020 ✭✭✭✭ banie01


    Well wear on 2 beautiful motors lads!

    We are currently an ICE house but our next car will be a BEV. We went from 2 cars to 1 back in 2019 as I'd been invalided out of work and living in a city the FTP covered all my commuting needs. I've been sorely tempted by the new EV's would love to buy a model 3, but its hard enough convincing the Mrs to let me buy a watch these days! The soon to arrive Chinese NIO and BYD models could shake up offerings and even the MG options look fairly decent.

    Our main issue at the moment is range. We travel Limerick to Athlone fairly regularly and we will likely be doing that run on a more regular schedule for a while in the near future. The In-laws live up there and old age and a lack of maintenance on the house has exploded into issues that I'm (along with the wife) will be spending a lot of time up there to manage tradesmen and get them back on track. If/When we switch cars, I'll probably arrange for a charger to be installed up there 2 to allow a charge when we are up there.

    It's not quite a hobby, but it will likely be a big part of my week for the next few months or longer if we cant actually nail down tradesmen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,012 ✭✭✭ Fitz II


    Banie, I know I might get shot for this round these part but the value retention on a tesla model 3 is amazing. I had a performance mode was 65k new, drove it for 2 years almost and sold it for 58k. So 7k for 20 months motoring and basically zero costs to run. So cost of entry is high but cost of ownership is low. I am sure comparisons could be made to watches but I will keep my head down on that. 🤣



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,020 ✭✭✭✭ banie01


    I kind of agree with you Fitz, the man maths for the Tesla are on a par with a Daytona purchase on my scribbles 🤣



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭ mailforkev


    @banie01 that new MG (ZS I think?) that looks a bit like like a Qashqai is excellent value. They cost less than my little Honda but have twice the range and are a million times more practical. Well equipped too.

    Mine was very much a heart rather than head purchase.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    EV's definitely keep decent value alright. Their depreciation curve is a lot lower on average than ICE(the exception seems to be the Leaf. Not nice looking(mk1) lack of cooling for batteries so they degrade more). I can see that lasting for a while too as the population moves over to EV, the secondhand EV's will be what's in demand, whereas seconhand oil burners not nearly so much. This is just a feeling now, but I do have the feeling that the halfway house hybrids, will take the biggest hit over time. They're a stepping stone for the cautious and that had merit even a few years ago with range anxiety and all that, but that's pretty much gone today. If someone is looking to go battery powered a hybrid is going to look a bit meh IMHO.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,012 ✭✭✭ Fitz II


    Man math's makes the world go round. But dont dismiss it out of hand as a pure frivolity. I always view a car as a fixed cost and any money saved is profit over another option. If you want to be pure sensible it make no sense own a car. I remember I was between cars and I rented a polo. Came with insurance, tax and a tank of fuel. about 120 euro a week on a long term rental. No way I could run a car for that, taking depreciation, running costs and dealer profit into account...however like houses there is something nice about having a good car of your own. Inflation may well make buying a car now and selling it in 3 years a cheap way to go.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,296 ✭✭✭✭ Cyrus


    if you go down the EV route deffo get a charger installed at your parents if its a common trip, itll take all the stress out of it for you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭ scwazrh


    That value retention is more to do with the way the current car market is at the moment not your particular car.I bought my jeep at the end of 2019 and have this week been offered €5k less than I paid for it by a local dealer. According to my man maths that means I’m running a 3.2 diesel jeep that’s only depreciated by €5k in 28 months.The massive increase in used car prices over the last couple of years is what is making the man maths work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,012 ✭✭✭ Fitz II


    If it works it works, I only use my car as example and am well aware of the factors at the moment distorting the market. What are you buying?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    There's certainly that too S. The rising tide has lifted a lot of boats, but even before that rise Teslas in particular were retaining more value used than had been expected. It had been expected that they'd be more in line with used premium brand iron where driving out of the showroom meant you lost an arm and a couple of years in your leg looked suspect too. I do reckon EV's are likely to be solid enough for a time anyway, because of more and more people looking to make the switch from ICE when they become used cars.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭ traco


    Double posted for some reason



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    Cos in case anyone missed the general awesomeness the first time I imagine Traco. 😁 "Ballet dancer on twisty country road", you're speaking the song of my peeeple T.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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