What to do - boundary issue

C3PO

I'm gobsmacked that the OP decided to remove the fence between the two properties without at least having a chat with his neighbour - as somebody else has said, if it was me I'd also be very annoyed!
Time for lots of humble pie ... apologise and reinstate! I can't believe that any reasonable person would insist on you removing the plaster from the extension if it was done properly!

vandriver

vandriver wrote: »

Were the 'crap metal supports' actually the boundary marker?

Most probably.

Sheep breeder

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Have to disagree with the above statement, the old ordnance survey maps were very accurate and now you have GPS and laser lines.

They are not accurate to a 2 to 4 inches, which is probably what we are taking about in this case. OSI even state they 93.2% to within 1m and 99% to two meters: https://www.osi.ie/about/osi-positional-accuracy/

The reality is the old fence would appear to have come first. The wall was built later, inside it. The old fence would be the boundary. What remains to be seen is if the deeds give any detail over the ownership of the fence. ie, the fence was jointly owned or each house owns the fence on its left etc.

Claw Hammer

C3PO wrote: »

I'm gobsmacked that the OP decided to remove the fence between the two properties without at least having a chat with his neighbour - as somebody else has said, if it was me I'd also be very annoyed!
Time for lots of humble pie ... apologise and reinstate! I can't believe that any reasonable person would insist on you removing the plaster from the extension if it was done properly!

Unless the wall was damaged, a court would not order the removal of the plaster and would regard it as far too trivial a matter to issue proceedings over.

C3PO

Claw Hammer wrote:

Unless the wall was damaged, a court would not order the removal of the plaster and would regard it as far too trivial a matter to issue proceedings over.

Agreed .. but at this stage the OP should be doing whatever he needs to avoid going legal ... who needs the grief!

BrokenArrows

TroubledSoul wrote: »

Well I thought the wall was the obvious boundary but now I'm not so sure. Might have to go down the mapping route but what do I do if it goes against me!

Well if it goes against you then you will have to build a new fence on your side. Simple.

Alternatively you could offer to buy the few inches of land you have taken and agree future shared maintenance of said wall. Depends on how much he wants for the few inches.

Peregrinus

Tow wrote: »

. . . The reality is the old fence would appear to have come first. The wall was built later, inside it. The old fence would be the boundary. What remains to be seen is if the deeds give any detail over the ownership of the fence. ie, the fence was jointly owned or each house owns the fence on its left etc.

Well, except the boundary came before the fence and the wall. The fence should have been built along the boundary line, but was it? The only way to answer this is to have a survey done.

Glass fused light

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, except the boundary came before the fence and the wall. The fence should have been built along the boundary line, but was it? The only way to answer this is to have a survey done.

Did you miss these bits?

TroubledSoul wrote: »

He rather intensely insisted that I had not only removed the boundary, but I had also MOVED the boundary. ....
I also don’t want to get locked into a feud with neighbours. I don’t know what to do.
All suggestions welcome.

TroubledSoul wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

What was the gap between the fence and wall distance wise?

Anywhere from one to a few centimeters.

Unless the OP's solicitor and the legal documents are crap he would be nuts to actually pay for a survey over a cm of land and start a feud with the neighbour. The foundations in the ground would make up this difference and more.
He would be better off spending the money buying the strip and putting a legal agreement in place so the neighbour could have access to keep his gitters maintained.

Peregrinus

It will certainly cost a great deal more to buy the strip (regardless of the price of the strip, for solicitors fees, land registry costs, etc) than it would simply to re-erect a fence along the original fenceline.

And, yes, I note that the OP wants to avoid any (more) aggro with his neighbours. I agree, the way to do that is not to start a war over exactly where the boundary lies, but to assume that it lies along the line of the fence that was removed. My point is that it doesn't necessarily lie along that line and, if that bothers him, the only way he can get certainty is with a survey.

seamus

OP, when it comes to this stuff, people can get really possessive and irrational about it. So when they have an actual grievance, they go in all guns blazing from the outset, expecting a huge fight about it.

He's mostly annoyed because he thinks you're taking liberties; he thinks you know about the boundary and you're chancing your arm trying to reach across.

If you go back to the neighbour immediately offering your apologies and explain that you were mistaken and that you genuinely believed his extension wall marked the boundary, then I would expect him to soften somewhat on it. It's an honest mistake, people understand honest mistakes. Right now he thinks you did it on purpose.

Once he has softened then you can come to an agreement about what he wants reinstated. Replacing the fence and lifting your patio are probably no-brainers, but the decorative work to the walls (minus anything you may have attached to them), he may be willing to leave, given that it doesn't affect him at all.

That said, the wall itself may be something of a sore point for him. The previous owner may have been a pain in the hole and refused permission to build on the boundary, meaning that he may be very spiteful over it. He may tell you that it all needs restoring. If that's the case, then I would arrange to put up a border wall of your own - even just a panelled wooden fence - to avoid misunderstandings in the future.

Muppet Man

Depending on location and when the fence was knocked, Google Maps Satellite view might show the original fence still in place. It seems that Google Satellite data is updated every 1 to 3 years and has varying degrees of resolution depending on what part of the country it is. Just a thought.

Turnipman

Muppet Man wrote: »

Depending on location and when the fence was knocked, Google Maps Satellite view might show the original fence still in place. It seems that Google Satellite data is updated every 1 to 3 years and has varying degrees of resolution depending on what part of the country it is. Just a thought.

An alternative to Google maps is to try Bing maps - certainly they're more up to date for my particular location.

And an alternative alternative is to use the eircode website and put in your eircode, they have excellent, hi-def maps (including satellite) which are very zoomable.

Claw Hammer

The reality is that in most of these situations maps are of little use. Unless there is a feature shown on the map such as a wall, ditch et cetera, and that same feature is referred to in the title deeds the boundary will be determined by whatever established marker exists, or else in the case of semi-detached or terraced houses the central party wall line will be produced. What is most likely to have happened in this situation is that there was a fence which is an established boundary line. The neighbour built an extension inside that boundary line entirely on his own land. The OP then removed the fence and trespassed in on the neighbour's land. If there was a fence there, the reality is that no matter what any map might show, the the fence will be taken to be the boundary. The neighbour is well within his rights to tell the OP to get back to his own land. He may have very good reason for not wanting the OP to be right up against his wall, such as privacy or noise.

wersal gummage

In a situation like this with a fence marking the boundary, and no agreement with a neighbour to replace the (broken /in bad repair) fence, the correct approach would be to build a wall (assuming it is a wall you want) inside your own garden, right up against the fence but without disrupting or moving the fence. Is that correct? It is also possible that the neighbour could then just rip down the fence and use your wall as the new boundary?? Is there anyway to safeguard against this? Particularly say if you are in a terraced house and have the fencing on both sides.....

Peregrinus

wersal gummage wrote: »

In a situation like this with a fence marking the boundary, and no agreement with a neighbour to replace the (broken /in bad repair) fence, the correct approach would be to build a wall (assuming it is a wall you want) inside your own garden, right up against the fence but without disrupting or moving the fence. Is that correct? It is also possible that the neighbour could then just rip down the fence and use your wall as the new boundary?? Is there anyway to safeguard against this? Particularly say if you are in a terraced house and have the fencing on both sides.....

No. The correct thing to do is to approach the neighbour and seekk agreement on splitting the cost of repairing or replacing the decaying fence. If you have decided, for whatever reason, that you want a boundary wall and not a boundary fence, and the neighbour doesn't share your desire and has no wish to pay half the cost of a wall, then you can place the fence with a wall on the boundary line at your own expense. If it's your wall, make sure the whole of the wall is on your side of the boundary - i.e. the opposite face of the wall should run along the boundary line. But if its a shared wall, then the centre line of the wall should run along the boundary line.