What to do - boundary issue

TroubledSoul

We moved into an 80’s semi-d early last year. Had only nodding “Hello” acquaintance with neighbours.
This year’s big ticket item was to get the gardens sorted.
Front garden was already set in grass rectangle with 1m+ high griselina hedge on all three sides. It’s boring but fine and just needed a good trim and tidy up. Back garden had mixed hedging on two sides which was well established and kept fairly neatly trimmed. Side #3 was between us and semi-d neighbours. It consisted of crap panel fencing attached to metal supports. Behind was bare 3m tall block side wall of neighbour’s extension, approx one third of the garden length and the rest was a block wall less than 2m tall. There was a mix of large and small shrubs/trees in both gardens along the length of the gardens.
A few of months ago as part of some other work in my garden, I had the wooden panels and supports removed, plastered his “extension wall”, tidied up the pointing on the rest of the wall and had the whole lot painted. I paved an area of patio with Indian sandstone, as far as the wall. Got a new barbie and some patio furniture. What good timing, we’ve been thoroughly enjoying it, while the sun shines.
Roll on last weekend neighbour approached me out front of the house and insists I remove all attachments from HIS wall, remove any paving beyond the boundary and reinstate the “shared” boundary fence. I explained that I was unaware that I had removed the boundary. He rather intensely insisted that I had not only removed the boundary, but I had also MOVED the boundary. He insisted that HIS wall and HIS extension had been built solely inside HIS property boundary and that I had neither right nor permission to trespass on HIS property let alone make changes to HIS property by drilling holes, attaching items, plastering and painting HIS walls. He was not interested in hearing of the improvement that the plastering and painting had made to his walls. Insisted he was just looking for reinstatement of previous state of affairs and if we don’t agree he’ll have to take legal advice and seek reimbursement of costs as per Land And Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009.
This is really taking the shine off our new outside room. I really don’t want to have to rip up some of the patio and build some sort of a fence down the side of my garden. I also don’t want to get locked into a feud with neighbours. I don’t know what to do.
All suggestions welcome.

troyzer

Is it actually his wall?

So there was a panel fence on your side and an actual wall on his side? Is this right? You replaced the fence and built a patio up against the wall. He's claiming the wall is 100% his and it was the fence that was the original dividing line?

What was the gap between the fence and wall distance wise?

notharrypotter

First thing to do is to hire someone to properly map your site against the land registry map.
This will quickly tell you if you have annexed part of their garden or not.
If it transpires you have annexed their garden then apologize profusely and restore everything to it's previous state.
If it is clear that you have not annexed their garden then show them the certified map showing in detail where the true boundary lines and go from there.

3DataModem

If there was a boundary fence, that was likely the property line, and he built his extension a few inches inside that line. He probably did this to ensure he had 100% ownership for the extension outside wall, and also so he didn’t need permission from your predecessor for the extension.

If this is the case (and I bet it is) then you knocking the boundary fence and effectively moving the boundary to his extension wall is not appropriate. If I was him I’d insist the fence (or another boundary) is reinstated.

johnnyskeleton

Did you discuss removing the boundary with your neighbour before you took it up?

NUTLEY BOY

notharrypotter wrote: »

First thing to do is to hire someone to properly map your site against the land registry map.
This will quickly tell you if you have annexed part of their garden or not.
If it transpires you have annexed their garden then apologize profusely and restore everything to it's previous state.
If it is clear that you have not annexed their garden then show them the certified map showing in detail where the true boundary lines and go from there.

Remember that the land registry map is not definitive or conclusive evidence of where the boundary actually lies.

When faced with such a vigorous objection you always wonder if the complainer is the actual trespasser simply seeking to reinforce some "adverse possession" on his part.

As the complainant is making the assertion he should also be asked for some supporting evidence. For example, are there old photographs which might include a perspective showing where boundary structures lay. We have been here for many years and there are a number of family photos in the garden which coincidentally show this - something which helped greatly to educate a new neighbour who had different ideas about the boundary. Unfortunately, OP is at a disadvantage here as he is only new to the property.

It might be worth looking at the maps which went with the planning application - if there was one - for the neighbours extension to see if there is inconsistency.

Radio5

Depending on size of the extension, the neighbour may not have needed planning. It's strange that he has only now approached you given that the work was done a few months ago. Normally if there's the slightest suggestion of encroachment, the offended party is there stopping the work being done. I find it odd that he waited til it was all done to object.

TroubledSoul

troyzer wrote: »

Is it actually his wall?

So there was a panel fence on your side and an actual wall on his side? Is this right? You replaced the fence and built a patio up against the wall. He's claiming the wall is 100% his and it was the fence that was the original dividing line?

That seems to be what he is saying.

troyzer wrote: »

What was the gap between the fence and wall distance wise?

Anywhere from one to a few centimeters.

TroubledSoul

notharrypotter wrote: »

First thing to do is to hire someone to properly map your site against the land registry map.
This will quickly tell you if you have annexed part of their garden or not.
If it transpires you have annexed their garden then apologize profusely and restore everything to it's previous state.
If it is clear that you have not annexed their garden then show them the certified map showing in detail where the true boundary lines and go from there.

That sounds complicated / expensive. Who or what do that sort of service?

TroubledSoul

3DataModem wrote: »

If there was a boundary fence, that was likely the property line, and he built his extension a few inches inside that line. He probably did this to ensure he had 100% ownership for the extension outside wall, and also so he didn’t need permission from your predecessor for the extension.

If this is the case (and I bet it is) then you knocking the boundary fence and effectively moving the boundary to his extension wall is not appropriate. If I was him I’d insist the fence (or another boundary) is reinstated.

Well I thought the wall was the obvious boundary but now I'm not so sure. Might have to go down the mapping route but what do I do if it goes against me!

TroubledSoul

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Did you discuss removing the boundary with your neighbour before you took it up?

No - never spoke to him/them before the confrontation!

TroubledSoul

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Remember that the land registry map is not definitive or conclusive evidence of where the boundary actually lies.

When faced with such a vigorous objection you always wonder if the complainer is the actual trespasser simply seeking to reinforce some "adverse possession" on his part.

As the complainant is making the assertion he should also be asked for some supporting evidence. For example, are there old photographs which might include a perspective showing where boundary structures lay. We have been here for many years and there are a number of family photos in the garden which coincidentally show this - something which helped greatly to educate a new neighbour who had different ideas about the boundary. Unfortunately, OP is at a disadvantage here as he is only new to the property.

It might be worth looking at the maps which went with the planning application - if there was one - for the neighbours extension to see if there is inconsistency.

Yes - it had crossed my mind that he might just have the hump! I'll have to pay a visit to local authority to see plans.

kippy

TroubledSoul wrote: »

No - never spoke to him/them before the confrontation!

This is/was your first mistake and could possibly have avoided any and all issues currently at play.

What were you basing your ideas of where the boundary's were prior to completing the work - did you just go ahead and do with without knowing for sure where you stood, if so why?

Marcusm

TroubledSoul wrote: »

Well I thought the wall was the obvious boundary but now I'm not so sure. Might have to go down the mapping route but what do I do if it goes against me!

It’s a semi-detached house so I imagine that a visual inspection would easily discern the intended boundary - ultimately maps are of little advantage when you are talking a matter of inches. Can you post up a photo of the back of both houses?

Peregrinus

TroubledSoul wrote: »

That sounds complicated / expensive. Who or what do that sort of service?

A geomatics surveyor. These lads can give you a list.

Del2005

On a semi d would the boundary not be the middle of the houses or the middle of the laneway the other side? Can't be that hard to measure the distances and figure out who's wrong.

mickuhaha

You don't need to look at maps the fence you took down was the boundary for the property. Maps in Ireland are only for reference and are only accepted as reference with in one metre of account of reality. You can't win on adverse possession so it's negotiation time with your neighbor . If I were you I would speak with your neighbor and apologies for your mistake. Tell them you will put up an boundary in the old ones place and come to an agreement about the other issues.

Peregrinus

Del2005 wrote: »

On a semi d would the boundary not be the middle of the houses or the middle of the laneway the other side? Can't be that hard to measure the distances and figure out who's wrong.

The boundary with the connected house should be the centre of the party wall between the houses, and typically (but not always) a projection of that line down the gardens in front and behind.

But the lot boundary on the other side, where the houses are unconnected, need not be midway between the houses, and frequently isn't. Lots may be of different sizes, or of other than rectangular shape, and corners may not be right angles. The houses on the lots may also be of differnet sizes or designs.

The boundary is ultimately determined by what is shown or stated on the title documents by which the lot was created. This is what a surveyor will work from in plotting the boundary.

The lot boundaries, remember, existed before the houses were built, so they don't depend on the location of the houses.

mickuhaha

If the boundary was in place 12 years and the neighbor claimed the land was his for that time then it's his no deed or map will take it off him for what you said was only a couple inches. You could ask the previous owner did they only use up to the fence when they were on the property.

4ensic15

In most cases, the sketch with the title documents will show which walls are party walls. Most architects planning an extension step in from party walls to avoid trouble.

vandriver

Were the 'crap metal supports' actually the boundary marker?

mickuhaha

OP can you post any pictures of the line of sight of the adjoining property.

p15574

What about the garden wall beyond the extension - did it continue in line with the extension or the fence? Presumably the boundary would be the middle of the garden wall, so if this wall joins up exactly with the extension, then you'd expect the extension to be the boundary. On the other hand, where this wall ends, if there's a 'step in', then it would seem that the fence was the boundary.

TroubledSoul

I think I'll leave out photo for discretion's sake - just in case.
Unfortunately for me the mid point between the houses is, now that I look (up) for it, pretty obvious and is closer to my house than the extension wall is. The lower wall is closer to mid point but was still not quite up to the fence. Its looking more/most likely that the fencing was marking the boundary.
Dam and blast. Not a great position to be in at the start of negotiations. I'd need to be Jake the Peg to have a leg to stand on I think. Thanks for the replies.

Claw Hammer

Go back to the neighbour and apologise. With a bit of luck, the neighbour might be willing to deal with it, "neighbourly" basis, and won't run to solicitors.

Glass fused light

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Go back to the neighbour and apologise. With a bit of luck, the neighbour might be willing to deal with it, "neighbourly" basis, and won't run to solicitors.

I would second this.
the fact that the extension was not plastered suggests that the previous owner of your house would not allow the builders in to finish the wall so you may have inherited a sensitive issue. Offer to put back the fence in the original positon and to sign a letter agreeing the boundary is per the fence line. And that all and any items on the otherside of the fence line are gifted to them ( you don't want to spend your time chipping off plaster from his extension).

UrbanVixen

If the neighbour's property is registered with the Land Registry would there not be a map associated with the folio ?

If so, is that map a publically available document that OP could see ?

If OP's property was registered with the Land Registry by the vendors of his property would there be a similar map for his property ?

I only wonder about this as we were looking at registering our property with the Land Registry and the mapping requirements seem to be very precise. That said, I wonder if all properties registered in the Land Registry have been mapped as precisely as a new registration would seem to demand.

Glass fused light

UrbanVixen wrote: »

If the neighbour's property is registered with the Land Registry would there not be a map associated with the folio ?

If so, is that map a publically available document that OP could see ?

If OP's property was registered with the Land Registry by the vendors of his property would there be a similar map for his property ?

I only wonder about this as we were looking at registering our property with the Land Registry and the mapping requirements seem to be very precise. That said, I wonder if all properties registered in the Land Registry have been mapped as precisely as a new registration would seem to demand.

The issue is that in ireland we don't have fixed points to measure from. When you scale up a line from a map to a property the real life width will depend on the scale multiple on the map. A printed or pen line will be a bigger the smaller the scale of the map ie 0.01x100 against 0.01x1000

Hitman3000

Hindsight is great, but had you took the time to chat your neighbour and told them your plans. You may have faced a different outcome. If my neighbour did what you did, I'd behave in exactly the same manner as your neighbour has. Arrogance brings out the worst in people. However it's never too late to try and reconcile. Be humble and show your neighbour what you have done. He may realise it's to his benefit.

Sheep breeder

Glass fused light wrote: »

The issue is that in ireland we don't have fixed points to measure from. When you scale up a line from a map to a property the real life width will depend on the scale multiple on the map. A printed or pen line will be a bigger the smaller the scale of the map ie 0.01x100 against 0.01x1000

Have to disagree with the above statement, the old ordnance survey maps were very accurate and now you have GPS and laser lines. The ordnance survey of Ireland has done huge work since the Celtic tiger died, we had them in our yard a couple of years ago to measure the height of a shed to plot on to the map as a reference height for the area,
I use GPS system in work at present and it so much simpler than a couple of years ago,
Big question is how come your neighbour let you do all this work and then cried halt, smells a bit odd to me is he in the wrong and is covering up now.

Peregrinus

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Have to disagree with the above statement, the old ordnance survey maps were very accurate and now you have GPS and laser lines. The ordnance survey of Ireland has done huge work since the Celtic tiger died, we had them in our yard a couple of years ago to measure the height of a shed to plot on to the map as a reference height for the area,

Yes, but ordnance survey maps show physical features, not property boundaries. The ordnance survey map will show with great accuracy the position of walls, fences, ditches, etc, and the location of buildings, but it tells you nothing about whether those walls, fences and ditches do or do not mark property boundaries, or about who owns the buildings or whether they have been erected where they should have been.

C3PO

I'm gobsmacked that the OP decided to remove the fence between the two properties without at least having a chat with his neighbour - as somebody else has said, if it was me I'd also be very annoyed!
Time for lots of humble pie ... apologise and reinstate! I can't believe that any reasonable person would insist on you removing the plaster from the extension if it was done properly!

Tow

vandriver wrote: »

Were the 'crap metal supports' actually the boundary marker?

Most probably.

Tow

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Have to disagree with the above statement, the old ordnance survey maps were very accurate and now you have GPS and laser lines.

They are not accurate to a 2 to 4 inches, which is probably what we are taking about in this case. OSI even state they 93.2% to within 1m and 99% to two meters: https://www.osi.ie/about/osi-positional-accuracy/

The reality is the old fence would appear to have come first. The wall was built later, inside it. The old fence would be the boundary. What remains to be seen is if the deeds give any detail over the ownership of the fence. ie, the fence was jointly owned or each house owns the fence on its left etc.

Claw Hammer

C3PO wrote: »

I'm gobsmacked that the OP decided to remove the fence between the two properties without at least having a chat with his neighbour - as somebody else has said, if it was me I'd also be very annoyed!
Time for lots of humble pie ... apologise and reinstate! I can't believe that any reasonable person would insist on you removing the plaster from the extension if it was done properly!

Unless the wall was damaged, a court would not order the removal of the plaster and would regard it as far too trivial a matter to issue proceedings over.

C3PO

Claw Hammer wrote:

Unless the wall was damaged, a court would not order the removal of the plaster and would regard it as far too trivial a matter to issue proceedings over.

Agreed .. but at this stage the OP should be doing whatever he needs to avoid going legal ... who needs the grief!

BrokenArrows

TroubledSoul wrote: »

Well I thought the wall was the obvious boundary but now I'm not so sure. Might have to go down the mapping route but what do I do if it goes against me!

Well if it goes against you then you will have to build a new fence on your side. Simple.

Alternatively you could offer to buy the few inches of land you have taken and agree future shared maintenance of said wall. Depends on how much he wants for the few inches.

Peregrinus

Tow wrote: »

. . . The reality is the old fence would appear to have come first. The wall was built later, inside it. The old fence would be the boundary. What remains to be seen is if the deeds give any detail over the ownership of the fence. ie, the fence was jointly owned or each house owns the fence on its left etc.

Well, except the boundary came before the fence and the wall. The fence should have been built along the boundary line, but was it? The only way to answer this is to have a survey done.

Glass fused light

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, except the boundary came before the fence and the wall. The fence should have been built along the boundary line, but was it? The only way to answer this is to have a survey done.

Did you miss these bits?

TroubledSoul wrote: »

He rather intensely insisted that I had not only removed the boundary, but I had also MOVED the boundary. ....
I also don’t want to get locked into a feud with neighbours. I don’t know what to do.
All suggestions welcome.

TroubledSoul wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

What was the gap between the fence and wall distance wise?

Anywhere from one to a few centimeters.

Unless the OP's solicitor and the legal documents are crap he would be nuts to actually pay for a survey over a cm of land and start a feud with the neighbour. The foundations in the ground would make up this difference and more.
He would be better off spending the money buying the strip and putting a legal agreement in place so the neighbour could have access to keep his gitters maintained.

Peregrinus

It will certainly cost a great deal more to buy the strip (regardless of the price of the strip, for solicitors fees, land registry costs, etc) than it would simply to re-erect a fence along the original fenceline.

And, yes, I note that the OP wants to avoid any (more) aggro with his neighbours. I agree, the way to do that is not to start a war over exactly where the boundary lies, but to assume that it lies along the line of the fence that was removed. My point is that it doesn't necessarily lie along that line and, if that bothers him, the only way he can get certainty is with a survey.

seamus

OP, when it comes to this stuff, people can get really possessive and irrational about it. So when they have an actual grievance, they go in all guns blazing from the outset, expecting a huge fight about it.

He's mostly annoyed because he thinks you're taking liberties; he thinks you know about the boundary and you're chancing your arm trying to reach across.

If you go back to the neighbour immediately offering your apologies and explain that you were mistaken and that you genuinely believed his extension wall marked the boundary, then I would expect him to soften somewhat on it. It's an honest mistake, people understand honest mistakes. Right now he thinks you did it on purpose.

Once he has softened then you can come to an agreement about what he wants reinstated. Replacing the fence and lifting your patio are probably no-brainers, but the decorative work to the walls (minus anything you may have attached to them), he may be willing to leave, given that it doesn't affect him at all.

That said, the wall itself may be something of a sore point for him. The previous owner may have been a pain in the hole and refused permission to build on the boundary, meaning that he may be very spiteful over it. He may tell you that it all needs restoring. If that's the case, then I would arrange to put up a border wall of your own - even just a panelled wooden fence - to avoid misunderstandings in the future.

Muppet Man

Depending on location and when the fence was knocked, Google Maps Satellite view might show the original fence still in place. It seems that Google Satellite data is updated every 1 to 3 years and has varying degrees of resolution depending on what part of the country it is. Just a thought.

Turnipman

Muppet Man wrote: »

Depending on location and when the fence was knocked, Google Maps Satellite view might show the original fence still in place. It seems that Google Satellite data is updated every 1 to 3 years and has varying degrees of resolution depending on what part of the country it is. Just a thought.

An alternative to Google maps is to try Bing maps - certainly they're more up to date for my particular location.

And an alternative alternative is to use the eircode website and put in your eircode, they have excellent, hi-def maps (including satellite) which are very zoomable.

Claw Hammer

The reality is that in most of these situations maps are of little use. Unless there is a feature shown on the map such as a wall, ditch et cetera, and that same feature is referred to in the title deeds the boundary will be determined by whatever established marker exists, or else in the case of semi-detached or terraced houses the central party wall line will be produced. What is most likely to have happened in this situation is that there was a fence which is an established boundary line. The neighbour built an extension inside that boundary line entirely on his own land. The OP then removed the fence and trespassed in on the neighbour's land. If there was a fence there, the reality is that no matter what any map might show, the the fence will be taken to be the boundary. The neighbour is well within his rights to tell the OP to get back to his own land. He may have very good reason for not wanting the OP to be right up against his wall, such as privacy or noise.

wersal gummage

In a situation like this with a fence marking the boundary, and no agreement with a neighbour to replace the (broken /in bad repair) fence, the correct approach would be to build a wall (assuming it is a wall you want) inside your own garden, right up against the fence but without disrupting or moving the fence. Is that correct? It is also possible that the neighbour could then just rip down the fence and use your wall as the new boundary?? Is there anyway to safeguard against this? Particularly say if you are in a terraced house and have the fencing on both sides.....

Peregrinus

wersal gummage wrote: »

In a situation like this with a fence marking the boundary, and no agreement with a neighbour to replace the (broken /in bad repair) fence, the correct approach would be to build a wall (assuming it is a wall you want) inside your own garden, right up against the fence but without disrupting or moving the fence. Is that correct? It is also possible that the neighbour could then just rip down the fence and use your wall as the new boundary?? Is there anyway to safeguard against this? Particularly say if you are in a terraced house and have the fencing on both sides.....

No. The correct thing to do is to approach the neighbour and seekk agreement on splitting the cost of repairing or replacing the decaying fence. If you have decided, for whatever reason, that you want a boundary wall and not a boundary fence, and the neighbour doesn't share your desire and has no wish to pay half the cost of a wall, then you can place the fence with a wall on the boundary line at your own expense. If it's your wall, make sure the whole of the wall is on your side of the boundary - i.e. the opposite face of the wall should run along the boundary line. But if its a shared wall, then the centre line of the wall should run along the boundary line.