Brass Bullet Casings

irishoak

Hi all,

I was wondering if you would be kind enough to help me out. I am looking for used bullet casing to use in a school project. I would take as many as possible. Would it be feasible to have collect them?
Many thanks!

Bogwoppit

Bullet casings are considered the same as live bullets under Irish law and as a result you’d need a license for that caliber to have them in your possession unfortunately.

Uinseann_16

As said already any component of ammunition whether it be live or a empty cartridge casing is a "firearm" in and of itself, being in possession of them without a licence is illegal
If you have a engineering/metalwork room in your school turn a few bits of brass bar on a lathe to look like empty cases:P

irishoak

Hey guys,
Thanks a million for the replies. Apologies for not being clearer. I don't actually want the bullet casing themselves. I want the brass in them. I have seen YouTube videos where people have melted brass Bullet casings and poured it to make castings! This was my angle!!

Thanks again!

Half-cocked

irishoak wrote: »

Hey guys,
Thanks a million for the replies. Apologies for not being clearer. I don't actually want the bullet casing themselves. I want the brass in them. I have seen YouTube videos where people have melted brass Bullet casings and poured it to make castings! This was my angle!!

Thanks again!

Probably easier to buy some sheet brass. That way you're not risking be found in possession of ammo components without a license. Do a bit of research - there are lot's of different variations of brass, you might want the same alloy as used by the ammo manufacturers?

Grizzly 45

So basically you just need scrap brass to be melted down for a brass casting and want to use spent brass shells? In that case, you have two choices.

Get some kindly shooter to melt down a heap of brass casings for you and send you a few brass ingots for your project.
Pop down to any metal recycler and ask to buy from their scrap brass bin some scrap brass in the weight you need for your project.

ligertigon

airsoft eire selling spent cartridges complete with bullet.
everything from 9mm to 50cal

Uinseann_16

ligertigon wrote: »

airsoft eire selling spent cartridges complete with bullet.
everything from 9mm to 50cal

That has to be illegal as a motherf*ckr... im actually amazed their doing it suppose its not worth AGSs time
If its somehow legal though... i might buy a few

ligertigon

Probably not that illegal, as mostly 10 year olds would be getting them:)

aaakev

I went to the military vehicle show in naas recently and loads of the stalls had spent brass on sale too

Walter Mittys Brother

I drove 85kmph in an 80 kpmh zone the other day and didn't get caught by Gardai..............that don't make it legal to do it though

gunny123

Load of old crap. As kids we had spent cases we used to swap at breaktime at school, this at a time the ira,inla, and other sundry nutters were turning ireland into the wild west.

I cannot imagine the kinehans etc deciding not to hit someone because of a brass shortage.

As for casting brass, ask a plumber, they normally have buckets of old fittings they keep for scrap.

Grizzly 45

Hmmm. Better tell the better half to lose the M60 cartridge belt she used to wear out clubbing,lest the Guards lift her and demand to know where the M60 is stashed.;).
One of these laws, that certainly lives up to the moniker of the law being an ass.

ligertigon

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hmmm. Better tell the better half to lose the M60 cartridge belt she used to wear out clubbing,lest the Guards lift her and demand to know where the M60 is stashed.;).
One of these laws, that certainly lives up to the moniker of the law being an ass.

On the contrary. It is a good law if enforced.

A fired 9mm cartridge with bullet....
All it needs is a donor primer and powder, which could come from nearly anything.

All of a sudden that is a worry.

irishoak

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies. I guess I could buy the sheet brass or scrap, but the plan was to use a waste product and turn it into a block of some shape that could be milled or turned on a lathe. It's really to have a different approach to the building of a metalwork/engineering project than every other student.

If the casing we're crushed in a clamp/vicegrip etc, would that be okay?

Cass

Hi IrishOak.

The lads, and their replies, are not trying to be difficult. The law regarding Irish firearms, including ammunition, is at times an ass. Other times its so pedantic as to be on the verge of ridiculous. In this case the law says that in order to possess ammunition for any caliber a person must hold a valid license for that caliber. The license grants the person the ability to buy the ammo. The law also defines ammunition as any component part of a round. In other words the primer, propellant, bullet, and case. So having any one of the components is, legally, the same as having the whole round. So in essence if you received say 100 cases of 223, 100 of 243, 100 of 6.5 and 100 of 308. You would need a license for each caliber, which allows you to have 100 of each, and if found that you didn't have the licenses you could face the possibility of a €25,000 fine and/or 5 years in jail for each offence.

There have been two cases of lads being brought before the courts for possession of ammunition displays. You know the ones you see in gun shops, furniture shops, hardware shops, etc. Both cases were dismissed/thrown out, but the law that had the men before the courts is still in place and is still something you can be prosecuted under.

Now having a display with one of each type of round, while inert, is one thing, but having a bucket or a few bucket load of casings (possibly numbering into the thousands) will raise a few more eyebrows and the lads that give it would be in as much trouble as you would be for having it.

To give another example three lads in the last year have been in court on firearm offences for having spent casings for calibers they had no license for. One chap had 100 rounds more than was on his license and he was also brought before the court.

With all that being said you can see why lads are giving warnings. The law does not specify what condition the case is in, only that it is a case. So crushing them, while making them useless, does not stop them being a case. Even rifle ranges that collect the empties people shoot on the range must dispose of them to a scrap dealer that is authorised to accept them otherwise the scrap dealer could be done for the same thing.

My point about the lads being brought to court is not to scare you into forgetting this, but to show you that while a "minor" law and while most cases have not seen any person serving time for the offence, they are being done for it. This forum is a public one, and make no mistake it is monitored. This does not mean, "wink, wink, nudge nudge" must be used, because the Mods would not allow it, it means lads will not take the chance to help someone, even fi genuine, because as firearm owners we are under 24hr scrutiny of all our actions.

I hope you get sorted, but i'm thinking your best bet is one of the options above about a scarp yard or any other, non firearm, source for the brass.

Either that or give in and get a gun license.

irishoak

Hi Cass,

No, I didn't suggest that anyone was being difficult. I fully accept everyone's opinions and help. And very grateful for the input.
Guess it just means I won't be going with the casings option! Just thought it would be an interesting approach for a project with the whole world looking at recycling etc.

Thanks for all the advice.

Irishoak

Cass

irishoak wrote: »

Hi Cass,

No, I didn't suggest that anyone was being difficult.

I know and understand. My point was in case you thought the replies so far were just lads trying to be difficult. Believe me if it were an option, legally, you would have no shortage of offers.

irishoak

Yep! Will just have to think of a different source!!😀

Del2005

irishoak wrote: »

Hi Cass,

No, I didn't suggest that anyone was being difficult. I fully accept everyone's opinions and help. And very grateful for the input.
Guess it just means I won't be going with the casings option! Just thought it would be an interesting approach for a project with the whole world looking at recycling etc.

Thanks for all the advice.

Irishoak

As another poster said contact a few plumbers or even a local engineering shop. The plumber will have waste brass and as will the engineering shop, the shop might like having a link to a local school.

Grizzly 45

ligertigon wrote: »

On the contrary. It is a good law if enforced.

A fired 9mm cartridge with bullet....
All it needs is a donor primer and powder, which could come from nearly anything.

All of a sudden that is a worry.

Seriously???All you need to do to make any case inert forever is get a 3mm drill bit and a drill and drill a hole thru the case body. It is now kaputt forever and can be used for any sort of decor. <MOD SNIP>

ligertigon

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Seriously???All you need to do to make any case inert forever is get a 3mm drill bit and a drill and drill a hole thru the case body. It is now kaputt forever and can be used for any sort of decor. TBH if theis rumour is to be believed,the Irish underworld is offering between 3.500 to 5.000 euros CASH for 50 rounds of fresh 9mm.I doubt very much that they are too concerned about improvised guerrilla munitions, made out of strike anywhere matches,bolt stems, and toy pistol caps.

I bet €1, that a casing drilled (transversly) with a 3mm bit.
Could still be re primed, powdered and capped with a bullet and fired.
The chamber would still hold enough pressure for a successful discharge, cf split casings of various calibres.

Grizzly 45

Be an interesting experiment alright to see what actually happens, and could you actually put together a fireable round in Ireland using some of the methods suggested and described in the US army improvised munitions manuals and poor mans James Bond books.

Would think the back blast from the gases from the rupturing case are going to be particularly unpleasant,and you won't get off more than one shot in a hurry, having to remove a ruptured case from the breach. Might work in a one-shot and run like Hell zip gun,but for anything more advanced...?

ligertigon

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Be an interesting experiment alright to see what actually happens, and could you actually put together a fireable round in Ireland using some of the methods suggested and described in the US army improvised munitions manuals and poor mans James Bond books.

Would think the back blast from the gases from the rupturing case are going to be particularly unpleasant,and you won't get off more than one shot in a hurry, having to remove a ruptured case from the breach. Might work in a one-shot and run like Hell zip gun,but for anything more advanced...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHH8MJ-bCzI

gunny123

I had better tip off me granny about that 25 pounder shell case used as an umbrella stand in the porch. If the guards found that they might think she had a field gun in the attic or on top of the wardrobe.

gunny123

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z353BT6I18

Cass

Grizzly_45 wrote:

Be an interesting experiment alright to see what actually happens, ....................... Would think the back blast from the gases from the rupturing case are going to be particularly unpleasant

It wouldn't be that interesting, trust someone on the receiving end of such an "experiment" when a case failed a few years back. Scared the absolute crap out of me, left me with blurred vision for almost a week, and a nice burn mark on my face.

Cass

By the by, Mod hat on for this one.


Lets please stay on topic or at the very least dam close to it.

I see no relevance from the original topic to improvised munitions, even tentatively. Discuss brass, casings, failures, crimping, deactivating, etc. if you will, but lets not divert into the realm of what ifs that would be outside the legalities of the this forum.

Thanks.

ligertigon

Holy crap. Though looks like it was well reincarnated brass

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

It wouldn't be that interesting, trust someone on the receiving end of such an "experiment" when a case failed a few years back. Scared the absolute crap out of me, left me with blurred vision for almost a week, and a nice burn mark on my face.

Reloaded or factory round?

Cass

Nope, brand new, factory ammo, at the time it happened. Those photos were from a few months back, but it happened at least 5 years ago and the blackening was from the case failure. Still have the case.

Its unfair to say it was the case, it wasn't. It was actually the rifle. The barrel was "off" by 0.1 (2.5mm) of an inch. A HUGE amount in gun terms. It shows what can happen when the case has any room outside of the chamber to expand. If a hole or even weakness wa spresent in the case you'd have case head separation (meaning the bit on my case that is still attached, wouldn't be).

I was breaking in a new FTR rifle and had no load worked up for it, and anyone that reloads knows you never use ammo for one rifle in another.

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

I had better tip off me granny about that 25 pounder shell case used as an umbrella stand in the porch. If the guards found that they might think she had a field gun in the attic or on top of the wardrobe.

There is a hotel bar in Shannon,[ much frequented by off-duty AGS,] that has about six 12 pounder naval artillery shell casings, and a few smaller calibre shell casings too on display in the bar. Wonder where they stashed that artillery in the hotel??
There are oodles of those sort of ornaments and keepsakes around the country. How many lads from the FCA brought home 40mm Bofor shells that are gracing fireplaces as poker holders in this land? Or keepsakes that great granddad brought home from ww1or 2?Technically it is under the law ammo,but would anyone take a case to court on such a charge? This is where the law is an ass.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Technically it is under the law ammo,but would anyone take a case to court on such a charge? This is where the law is an ass.

It was for this reason the Judges in each case dismissed the case. It was evident the shells/cases were ornamental and not in use/inert.

However in relation to the OPs request having hundreds or thousands of fired brass for calibers they have no license for would be a different story.

Czhornet

Just one query with this post and as rightly pointed out by Cass as brass is a component of a rifle cartridge, I have a habit of picking up spent brass and putting it in my pocket and bringing it home, its not for re loading, just being tidy I guess, but I lately realised that I have a load of used brass which would more that likely put me over my allowance on my licence if the guards called to the house.

What do others do with empty cases? are they left where they lie or disposed some other way?

Cass

If its rimfire stuff i dump it at the range. Too dangerous and hard to reload for even if you could do it.

Centrefire stuff i usually keep, but while being careful that the total amount of loaded stuff and fired stuff does not exceed my allowance. If it get close to it, i'll take the oldest fired stuff i have and either dump it at the range or give it to someone on the range (if its once fired).

This includes stuff when i'm out hunting. I pick up my brass and dispose of it as above depending on what it is.

Grizzly 45

Pick up, take home, belt with a hammer to deactivate it, sell it for scrap brass at local scrap merchant, buy new ammo.:)

And for the masochists who want a reloading job straight from Hell...:p

https://sharpshooter-22lr-reloader.myshopify.com/products/22-reloader-kit

ligertigon

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Pick up, take home, belt with a hammer to deactivate it, sell it for scrap brass at local scrap merchant, buy new ammo.:)

And for the masochists who want a reloading job straight from Hell...:p

https://sharpshooter-22lr-reloader.myshopify.com/products/22-reloader-kit

Bingo!

"Belt it with a hammer"

A fired cartridge is just a dormant cartridge, or "inert" as they are sold as.

But once it is flattened with a hammer, it is truely deactivated.

So the OP could get some "deactivated casings"

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Pick up, take home, belt with a hammer to deactivate it, sell it for scrap brass at local scrap merchant, buy new ammo.:)

ligertigon wrote: »

Bingo!

"Belt it with a hammer"

A fired cartridge is just a dormant cartridge, or "inert" as they are sold as.

But once it is flattened with a hammer, it is truely deactivated.

So the OP could get some "deactivated casings"

As said before:

Cass wrote: »

The law does not specify what condition the case is in, only that it is a case.

IOW still a component part.

ligertigon

Cass wrote: »

As said before:



IOW still a component part.

I disagree.

There have to be exemptions in the law.

For example.

Does the courier that delivers ammunition from the UK to a RFD in Ireland with his truck, have a 12g licence, a licence for a .308, a .204...etc?

No he doesn't

Also, if above is true,

Does the scrap dealer who takes the casings have a licence for a 308,204,223...etc?
No he doesn't

Cass

ligertigon wrote: »

I disagree.

There have to be exemptions in the law.

You can disagree if you wish, i'm not trying to convince you just tell you what the law says. How you act on that is your own business.

There are no exemptions, but there are laws to govern the examples you gave.

ligertigon wrote:

Does the courier that delivers ammunition from the UK to a RFD in Ireland with his truck, have a 12g licence, a licence for a .308, a .204...etc?

The UK laws on couriers is not relevant to our situation, but as soon as it touches Irish soil it is. They don't need license but authorised under the act. Third party couriers can deliver, section 2(3)(d) covers them:

( d ) the possession or carriage of a firearm or ammunition in the ordinary course of business by a person engaged in the business of carrying or of warehousing goods for reward;

ligertigon wrote:

Does the scrap dealer who takes the casings have a licence for a 308,204,223...etc?

Nope he doesn't in fact the authorisation i spoke about previously doesn't actually exist, specifically, for scrap merchants, but section 2(3) and 2(4) of the act would be "used" to cover them to take it.

I'm not saying the law covers every eventuality, nor am i saying that you'll get a €25,000 and/or up to 5/7 years jail time for having a couple of spent casings. What i am saying is the law prohibits some things, and while a person may not face any punishment the firearm acts still say its an offence, but doesn't specify alternatives. IOW it says you cannot have casings without a license, but doesn't actually say what is legal for disposing of them.

There is a description/method that the Act says must be carried out in order to ensure a spent case is legally classed as inert, but i cannot for the life of me remember which act. Trying to find it and once i do i'll post it here.

Grizzly 45

We could, of course, sort out this problem like in Greece. Once you fire a round at a range. The casing and bullet become THE RANGES property!!:eek:
And reloading is totally illegal in Greece too.:rolleyes:

deerhunter1

irishoak wrote: »

Hey guys,
Thanks a million for the replies. Apologies for not being clearer. I don't actually want the bullet casing themselves. I want the brass in them. I have seen YouTube videos where people have melted brass Bullet casings and poured it to make castings! This was my angle!!

Thanks again!

where you situated

SeaFields

Cass, have you a link to the act? Just curious - something to read over my coffee today. I'd Google it myself but I'm not 100% sure which one it is. Cheers.

Cass

Which act? Or more accurately about which topic? The casings, the courier, etc?

SeaFields

Cass wrote: »

Which act? Or more accurately about which topic? The casings, the courier, etc?

The empty casings whichever section refers? Given I spent my childhood collecting various empties until I was old enough for a licence if my own it has me very curious.

Cass

Its the 1925 (principle) Act. In Definitions it states:

the word “ammunition” (except where used in relation to a prohibited weapon) means ammunition for a firearm but also includes grenades, bombs, and other similar missiles whether the same are or are not capable of being used with a firearm, and also includes any ingredient or component part of any such ammunition or missile;

I've highlighted the important part.

Your firearms license allows you to be in possession of ammunition as per section 2(1)&(2) of the 1925 act, which includes the component parts as outlined above, but only if you have a firearms license and for the caliber of the ammunition to suit the firearm:

(2) Save in any of the cases hereinafter excepted from this section, every person who after the commencement of this Act has in his possession, uses, or carries any firearm without holding a firearm certificate therefor or otherwise than as authorised by such certificate, or purchases, uses, has in his possession, or carries any ammunition without holding a firearm certificate therefor or in quantities in excess of those authorised by such certificate, or fails to comply with any condition subject to which a firearm certificate was granted to him, shall be guilty of an offence under this Act and shall be punishable accordingly

Nekarsulm

Cass wrote: »

Its the 1925 (principle) Act. In Definitions it states:

I've highlighted the important part.

Your firearms license allows you to be in possession of ammunition as per section 2(1)&(2) of the 1925 act, which includes the component parts as outlined above, but only if you have a firearms license and for the caliber of the ammunition to suit the firearm:

Isn't it curious that I am licenced to have about a thousand 12 g cartridges "OR THEIR COMPONENT PARTS" but its not permissible to buy these component parts for assembly into a shotgun cartridge (or rifle round etc)?

Is the sticking point the actual import licence required for propellant, primers etc?

Uinseann_16

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Isn't it curious that I am licenced to have about a thousand 12 g cartridges "OR THEIR COMPONENT PARTS" but its not permissible to buy these component parts for assembly into a shotgun cartridge (or rifle round etc)?

Is the sticking point the actual import licence required for propellant, primers etc?

I think the big problem is the propellant ,if memory serves correctly cass pointed this out before in a thread i may be wrong:p. Open a cartridge and spill out the powder your breaking the law and are now in possession of an explosive(under the law i know modern propellants are not explosives) basically were trustworthy will all the components put together but not the individual components:)

Cass

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Pretty much it.

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Is the sticking point the actual import licence required for propellant, primers etc?

Yes and no.

Your license covers you for the components except the primer and propellant. So for a shotgun you can buy the wads, cartridge shell, and even the shot. However when it comes to a the propellant and primer they are covered under the explosives act (a really old one so don't ask me to find it again). As individual components you need to be licensed for each one so technically you'd need a license from the DoJ for the propellant. Once you get the license you need to import it and this requires, depending on quantity, to get it yourself by driving/traveling over to get it and when home, depending on quantity, a Garda escort. There is also the matter of the classification of the propellant (1.4, 1.3, etc).

These licenses are obtainable. They are hard as sin to get and the conditions set by the DoJ to obtain one would be so expensive as to prohibit it for most everyone bar a select few.