Seetec/Jobpath advice

Amazingfun

I have been reading the threads tagged with Seetec/Jobpath as I am trying to help an older family member who has a pending "engagement" soon. I feel uneasy in my comprehension of (or lack of, lol) the posts around as there seems to be some contradiction. On p.ie I read this:

OK. I can now give definitive information re the outcome of a hearing of this matter - don't ask how I know. In short if you refuse to sign the Data Protection Consent Clause of the Personal Progression Plan (PPP) that they plant under your nose day one on JobPath there is nothing that Turas Nua/Seetec/DSP can do about it as there is a Charter Right to withhold your consent under Article 8(2) of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU which was inserted into the Constitution re the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty in 2009. And it is unlawful under Article 8(2) of the Charter to impose any form of penalty or sanction such as a reduced or discontinued payment over a number of weeks for exercising your Charter Right. There is however an obligation on your part to attend every meeting or session that you have been called to under the Social Welfare Acts. Therefore you MUST attend every meeting but as long as you stick to your guns and refuse to sign the Data Protection Consent Clause stating that you are exercising your Charter Right in withholding your consent there is nothing Turas Nua/Seetac can do about it (although they will no doubt try to bluff you out of it) and they can then only refer you back to the DSP who themselves equally can do nothing about it as their policy of treating the non-signing of the Data Protection Consent Clause as non-compliance and sanctionable is unlawful. Further, a department Deciding Officer has absolutely no Jurisdiction on this matter as their remit is purely under the Social Welfare Acts and have no Jurisdiction whatsoever under the Data Protection Acts.

In short, if you want to defeat JobPath just refuse to sign the Data Protection Consent Clause stating that you are exercising your Charter Right to withhold your consent under Article 8(2) of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU. but remember that you MUST attend every meeting you get called to or else they can in that case apply the sanction under the Social Welfare Acts. There is a provision where you can claim that you had 'good cause' for not attending but I wouldn't try mudding the waters by making that claim - just attend and stand your ground that you are withholding your consent.

If this gets a wide public airing it would probably mean the end of JobPath as it in effect will become 'optional' for participants rather than 'mandatory' meaning that numbers will drop like a stone and will no longer be a viable proposition for Turas Nua/Seetec.

The European Commission Justice and Consumers Directorate are currently investigating a complaint on this matter with a view to taking the matter to a hearing of the ECJ.

Yet, there seems no real evidence that anyone is having success with this avenue, else would not everyone be at this?

The issue is one of data being sent overseas, not engagement.
So I am hoping I can gain some clarity here? Can they safely engage without signing this "PPP"? Or would this be ignorant/reckless advice?

Thanks in advance and apologies if this has been clarified already and I somehow missed it.

splinter65

Is there a specific reason why you relative doesn’t want to co operate with Jobpath? It’s a question of attending meetings, searching online for jobs, etc.
Is it the data protection issue?

Amazingfun

No, the willingness to engage is there, it's more a worry over info I passed on after reading a few threads here in fact, lol: that the seetec servers are located overseas, etc, and that by signing one gives permission for use outside of Ireland.

splinter65

The information is the same info you give when opening a bank account or applying for a drivers license or a medical card or an old age pension or registering to vote.
It’s nothing like as extensive as the information you have to provide when applying for a first time passport aged over 18....or Irish citizenship .... or to go on the housing list...
I find it odd that people have no problem handing over all this information including medical records and copies of utility bills to all these bodies but they suddenly become terribly security conscious when it’s Jobpath.

Amazingfun

Thanks for taking the time to reply Splinter, but am I to assume you just don't know the answer to my original query?

This document contains a case whereby a man challenged the notion he had to sign the PPP despite being wiling to engage with Seetec. And he was successful: (page 17/18)
http://unitedpeople.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/JobPath.-A-UnitedPeople-Report..pdf

And I've seen a good few posts round of people claiming they regret signing/won't sign, etc, yet I am not too sure as to whether or not these are genuine "clients". So I remain a bit wary of advising one way or the other.

However, I am not surprised at people not wanting to have their data shared/stored overseas by a British company that has a lot of negative feedback in regards to both its methods and apparent lack of effectiveness. On the other hand, disgruntled people are in general more likely to post I suppose.

Thanks anyhow.

splinter65

There’s an entire thread here on boards,64 pages long, about United People
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057766783/1/#post104166259
I would suggest you give a glance through that thread before you invest any more confidence in anything Jeff says did or didn’t happen.

Amazingfun

Thanks very much, will do.

Twelve Bar Blues

My reasons for not being a fan of signing the PPP is the follow-up actions it allows TN. Whether they help you find the job, or you get it yourself without any input or assistance from TN, the PPP allows them claim a commission AND contact yourself and your new employer at intervals throughout the first year of your new job.
I think as a newcomer to any sort of business it looks very amateur to have a rep from TN ringing your new employer to see how things are going. It could be seen as a nuisance and reflect poorly on the new employee.

jlav1

Hi guys. Butting in here. I'm with seetec and on a C.E. scheme. I have kept my appointments and as of today, I have found myself a full time job. This has been without any help from seetec whatsoever. My question is this. Can I leave seetec without telling them that I have found work. Don't like the idea of them calling me or my new employer every so often. Do I tell them or just say that i will not be attending anymore and to leave me alone? Thank you in advance!

refusetolose

jlav1 wrote: »

Hi guys. Butting in here. I'm with seetec and on a C.E. scheme. I have kept my appointments and as of today, I have found myself a full time job. This has been without any help from seetec whatsoever. My question is this. Can I leave seetec without telling them that I have found work. Don't like the idea of them calling me or my new employer every so often. Do I tell them or just say that i will not be attending anymore and to leave me alone? Thank you in advance!

don't tell them anything,just cut off all contact
if they ring just hang up

Walter Knight

jlav1 wrote: »

Hi guys. Butting in here. I'm with seetec and on a C.E. scheme. I have kept my appointments and as of today, I have found myself a full time job. This has been without any help from seetec whatsoever. My question is this. Can I leave seetec without telling them that I have found work. Don't like the idea of them calling me or my new employer every so often. Do I tell them or just say that i will not be attending anymore and to leave me alone? Thank you in advance!

I wonder why people bother of Seetec if they are allready on C.E. or even got a job. It`s C.E. ,your new employer and yourself who provides means for living, not Seetec or SWO...So why do you bare with Seetec/SWO ? I`m so regret that the sistem begets such a slave minded way of thinking...

Cactusmania

Hi Amazingfun,

Yes, you can engage without signing the Personal Progression Plan ( no fear of penalty). I completed the 12 months a couple of months ago.
You should be there less often because in my experience, there is a set routine they follow in these cases.
1. They will give you a list of jobs to be filed in and tell you to bring it back in the next time. (If you sign the PPP, this will go on you record,
where apparently, the Social Welfare can see it. Without your signature, it doesn't seem to matter, so long as you fill it in, they can't check).
2. You won't have to do any of the "job-search" appointments. (Again, no PPP means they can't create an account for you on their system).
3. From time to time, you personal adviser will go through some questions with you, simple yes/no/agree/strongly agree questions etc. Takes about 5 minutes, very easy.
4. Only once in the 12 months was the CV discussed. Emailed the CV, talked about it at next appointment, made necessary changes(at home, you won't be using their computers), asked was I happy with it. I said I was, and that was that.
5. They might ask you on occasion about signing the PPP, it's your choice (If you don't sign, they can't look for jobs/arrange interviews on your behalf)
6. Don't be surprised on occasion to have some appointments cancelled, usually one or two days before. This happened several times with me, they send you a text. Also, apart from the texts cancelling appointments, they never contacted me once while I was with them.
7. You won't have any group appointments, only one to one, and you won't have to do any of their workshops. Be careful about anything they ask you to sign (whether that's on paper or computer).

That's pretty much it. It's up to you how to proceed. Best of luck

Plugguy

When a person joins Turas Nua/Seetec they will be asked to sign two documents one of these is the PPP and the other is the consent form. It is my understanding that you are obliged to sign the PPP...The consent form if you sign it, gives them your consent for them to contact prospective employers on your behalf. You are not obliged to sign the consent form.


Will the JobPath Company contact my employer when I find work?

At the outset of your participation with the JobPath service, your personal advisor will ask for your consent to allow the company to contact your employer or prospective employers on your behalf. You are not obliged to give this consent to the JobPath provider, and can withdraw your consent at any time, However by giving them permission to contact employers you allow the JobPath company who work with employers and employers bodies to identify suitable job opportunities for you and to forward your CV and job applications directly to employers where appropriate. The permission also allows the JobPath company to follow up with the employer if required when you find a job for the purpose of supporting you in early days of your new job and in the case where other opportunities arise for you, to help you to move to another role or area within the business. This also enables the JobPath Company to confirm details of the employment to the Department.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/JobPath-Frequently-Asked-Questions-Jobseeker.aspx

Johnnycanyon

Cactusmania wrote: »

Hi Amazingfun,

Yes, you can engage without signing the Personal Progression Plan ( no fear of penalty). I completed the 12 months a couple of months ago.
You should be there less often because in my experience, there is a set routine they follow in these cases.
1. They will give you a list of jobs to be filed in and tell you to bring it back in the next time. (If you sign the PPP, this will go on you record,
where apparently, the Social Welfare can see it. Without your signature, it doesn't seem to matter, so long as you fill it in, they can't check).
2. You won't have to do any of the "job-search" appointments. (Again, no PPP means they can't create an account for you on their system).
3. From time to time, you personal adviser will go through some questions with you, simple yes/no/agree/strongly agree questions etc. Takes about 5 minutes, very easy.
4. Only once in the 12 months was the CV discussed. Emailed the CV, talked about it at next appointment, made necessary changes(at home, you won't be using their computers), asked was I happy with it. I said I was, and that was that.
5. They might ask you on occasion about signing the PPP, it's your choice (If you don't sign, they can't look for jobs/arrange interviews on your behalf)
6. Don't be surprised on occasion to have some appointments cancelled, usually one or two days before. This happened several times with me, they send you a text. Also, apart from the texts cancelling appointments, they never contacted me once while I was with them.
7. You won't have any group appointments, only one to one, and you won't have to do any of their workshops. Be careful about anything they ask you to sign (whether that's on paper or computer).

That's pretty much it. It's up to you how to proceed. Best of luck

I refused to sign it when I was with them but they simply forged my name on the PPP obviously to get their pound of flesh off SW.. I got a job all by myself shortly after so never bothered to do anything about it.

Johnnycanyon

refusetolose wrote: »

don't tell them anything,just cut off all contact
if they ring just hang up

When I got my own job I never told them or SW where I was going to work but somehow they found out and started to harass my employer for information about me..To this day I still don't know how they found out the only ones who knew where I was working was the revenue.

votecounts

.

Mr.H

You didnt tell SW where you went to work?

I love how people see social welfare payments as a right. Sad really.

You know revenue and SW are connected yea?

Mr.H

Mr.H wrote: »

You didnt tell SW where you went to work?

I love how people see social welfare payments as a right. Sad really.

You know revenue and SW are connected yea?

You are assuming this person this person is still signing, if a person finds a job and signs off online or simply stops collecting jobseekers what business is it of SW where they work? Absolutely none

blowin3

After being with T.Nua for one year how soon can they call you again.

Plugguy

blowin3 wrote: »

After being with T.Nua for one year how soon can they call you again.

I think you can be called back after 12 months.

blowin3

Plugguy wrote: »

I think you can be called back after 12 months.

Thanks for reply . I thought it was something like that. I finished with them about 6 months ago . I am on X and O's and do agency work at the moment which is going well as I am generally getting getting 4 to 5 days a week. But that could change with the strike of a pen
. Last time I was with them most times I could not make appointments as I was working but when I did she would ask me some questions and just say good luck see you in 2 weeks...waste of time.

Cactusmania

According to the minister for SW, it's 4 months after the 12 months have been completed when you become eligible again.

https://www.thejournal.ie/jopath-third-time-referrals-4527202-Mar2019/

blowin3

Cactusmania wrote: »

According to the minister for SW, it's 4 months after the 12 months have been completed when you become eligible again.

https://www.thejournal.ie/jopath-third-time-referrals-4527202-Mar2019/

Thanks for the link it means they are entitled to call me back. But reading the comments it says I dont have to sign the PPC . Its a joke as I will be working most days so won't be able to attend like the last time.

Dial Hard

Mr.H wrote:

You didnt tell SW where you went to work?

I was unemployed for a period in 2017. I found a job myself and simply told Intreo the date I was signing off. I didn't tell them where I was going to work and they didn't ask. Not really sure what your issue is.

fryup

blowin3 wrote: »

Thanks for the link it means they are entitled to call me back. But reading the comments it says I dont have to sign the PPC . Its a joke as I will be working most days so won't be able to attend like the last time.

but if you're working they won't call you

*unless you're still getting SW?

Wanderer78

fryup wrote:

but if you're working they won't call you

fryup wrote:

*unless you're still getting SW?

Sounds like they're working in precarious employment, something of which is not considered and/or ignored during this process, there's a good chance they ll eventually get called back as they're claiming partial welfare

blowin3

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Sounds like they're working in precarious employment, something of which is not considered and/or ignored during this process, there's a good chance they ll eventually get called back as they're claiming partial welfare

I am working (2 years ) but on X and O's . I get prob one payment every 4 to 5 weeks due to a short week. But I dont want to sign off as I am agency and that can change overnight.

I spoke on the phone to TN and asked did I have to sign a contract after a bit of discussion she admitted no I did not have to sign and I won't be signing. I explained due to work I will not be able attend many of their sessions and I was not going to be bullied into signing off.

Wanderer78

blowin3 wrote: »

I am working (2 years ) but on X and O's . I get prob one payment every 4 to 5 weeks due to a short week. But I dont want to sign off as I am agency and that can change overnight.

I spoke on the phone to TN and asked did I have to sign a contract after a bit of discussion she admitted no I did not have to sign and I won't be signing. I explained due to work I will not be able attend many of their sessions and I was not going to be bullied into signing off.

are you currently a part of the turas nua program?

blowin3

No I finished with them last December and they called me again.

Wanderer78

blowin3 wrote: »

No I finished with them last December and they called me again.

when did they call you last? be aware, you re under no obligation to answer calls from them now as you re no longer a part of the program, just ignore the calls

blowin3

Wanderer78 wrote: »

when did they call you last? be aware, you re under no obligation to answer calls from them now as you re no longer a part of the program, just ignore the calls

Thank you Wanderer78 they text and sent letter. But I think I am obliged to go to their meetings or sign off. It would be easy to sign off as I said I am getting plenty of hours but with this government who knows what next week will bring.

Wanderer78

blowin3 wrote: »

Thank you Wanderer78 they text and sent letter. But I think I am obliged to go to their meetings or sign off. It would be easy to sign off as I said I am getting plenty of hours but with this government who knows what next week will bring.

when did they last text you and send the letter? have you officially finished the job path program?

blowin3

The letter and text both this week. I never was on a program ( as far as I know) last year as I was working I used to go to meetings when I was off and available. The lady I was dealing was really nice and apologetic about bringing me in on my day off.

Wanderer78

blowin3 wrote: »

The letter and text both this week. I never was on a program ( as far as I know) last year as I was working I used to go to meetings when I was off and available. The lady I was dealing was really nice and apologetic about bringing me in on my day off.

my understanding, and i could be wrong, you were probably officially on the job path program run by turas nua. were you sent there by your local welfare office?

blowin3

I have no contact with my local social welfare office for a long time. But the lady on the phone said that my name was given to them by SW. But I have been working in this job for nearly 2 plus years.

fryup

blowin3 wrote: »

I am working (2 years ) but on X and O's . I get prob one payment every 4 to 5 weeks due to a short week. But I dont want to sign off as I am agency and that can change overnight.

X & O's whats that?

Conall Cernach

fryup wrote: »

X & O's whats that?

lf you are working part time or with irregular days and want to claim Jobseekers for the other days then you are given a sheet with the days of the week on it and you fill it out with an X or an O depending on if you worked that day or not. If you have worked 3 days or less in a week then you may be entitled to a payment depending on how much you earn etc.

blowin3

Conall Cernach wrote: »

lf you are working part time or with irregular days and want to claim Jobseekers for the other days then you are given a sheet with the days of the week on it and you fill it out with an X or an O depending on if you worked that day or not. If you have worked 3 days or less in a week then you may be entitled to a payment depending on how much you earn etc.

Thanks for explanation. In my case at the moment I am working over 3 days a week so I get noting .

fryup

^^^^^^^^^^

and you're still expected to go to TN appointments?

Johnnycanyon

Mr.H wrote: »

You didnt tell SW where you went to work?

I love how people see social welfare payments as a right. Sad really.

You know revenue and SW are connected yea?

I informed them by letter that I had got a job and no longer needed to sign on..Where I am working is not their concern..And I am damn well very entitled to claim social welfare having been paying into the system for the last 43 years..

Mr.H

Johnnycanyon wrote:

I informed them by letter that I had got a job and no longer needed to sign on..Where I am working is not their concern..And I am damn well very entitled to claim social welfare having been paying into the system for the last 43 years..

Why are you entitled? You get 9 months of stamps. Thats it. Its not your money to claim. It is money people who work are giving you to look for a job. If you spend all your time arguing about job path maybe you could just get a job?

As far as none of their concern. Says it all really. You expect to be given a hand out and then tell the person paying your bills that its none of their concern.

Johnnycanyon

Mr.H wrote: »

Why are you entitled? You get 9 months of stamps. Thats it. Its not your money to claim. It is money people who work are giving you to look for a job. If you spend all your time arguing about job path maybe you could just get a job?

As far as none of their concern. Says it all really. You expect to be given a hand out and then tell the person paying your bills that its none of their concern.

So you are basically telling me if I pay for car, house insurance and I have some type of accident I have no right to claim? I have paid prsi for nearly half a century and because I became unemployment for a few months I have no right to claim SW? What a ridiculously stupid attitude you have, you probably think Oaps and disabled people should be left to starve .

Straight Talker

Mr.H wrote: »

Why are you entitled? You get 9 months of stamps. Thats it. Its not your money to claim. It is money people who work are giving you to look for a job. If you spend all your time arguing about job path maybe you could just get a job?

As far as none of their concern. Says it all really. You expect to be given a hand out and then tell the person paying your bills that its none of their concern.

Hmm how about you stop pontificating to others, and get down off that high horse.You never know.You might like it.;)

Mr.H

Johnnycanyon wrote:

So you are basically telling me if I pay for car, house insurance and I have some type of accident I have no right to claim? I have paid prsi for nearly half a century and because I became unemployment for a few months I have no right to claim SW? What a ridiculously stupid attitude you have, you probably think Oaps and disabled people should be left to starve .

I didnt say any of that. I said you have 9 months of stamps which you are entitled to claim from your prsi. This is not me attitude. This is the government policy. Ive been through it myself. Stamps only last 9 months. No longer.

The government are telling you that apart from that 9 months your working life means nothing toward entitlement.

After 9 months you are treated the exact same as someone who has never worked. You can claim and ask for assistance while you seek employment and as long as you comply with the rules you will receive job seekers. The rules are that you look for work and you take any help afforded to you by the social welfare to seek work. That help includes jobpath and solas.

People can bitch all they want about tax payer money but people are on job seekers for years and not able to get work. They obviously either need help to get work or else they would be in work.

Most of us pay our mortgage. Pay for our car. Pay for our kids to go to school. Work more hours than we should and get very little pay or thanks. But we cant all decide to be unemployed for a long period just because we feel entitled. Its life. Its hard.

Mr.H

Mr.H wrote: »

I didnt say any of that. I said you have 9 months of stamps which you are entitled to claim from your prsi. This is not me attitude. This is the government policy. Ive been through it myself. Stamps only last 9 months. No longer.

The government are telling you that apart from that 9 months your working life means nothing toward entitlement.

After 9 months you are treated the exact same as someone who has never worked. You can claim and ask for assistance while you seek employment and as long as you comply with the rules you will receive job seekers. The rules are that you look for work and you take any help afforded to you by the social welfare to seek work. That help includes jobpath and solas.

People can bitch all they want about tax payer money but people are on job seekers for years and not able to get work. They obviously either need help to get work or else they would be in work.

Most of us pay our mortgage. Pay for our car. Pay for our kids to go to school. Work more hours than we should and get very little pay or thanks. But we cant all decide to be unemployed for a long period just because we feel entitled. Its life. Its hard.

To stick to the facts: my understanding of the posts is that you are replying to someone who is actually working, who secured their own job without help from JobPath but who, like many others on the discredited JobPath set-up, was receiving phone calls asking for details of their employment to secure payment for having found them a job - which they didn't.

We all have our bugbears, of course, but it's best when this forum works as it should: that people can ask questions about benefits and assistance payments, share their experiences, get answers and clarifications to the best of everyone's knowlege, and not have those experiences or questions misrepresented.

Mr.H

Balagan1 wrote:

To stick to the facts: my understanding of the posts is that you are replying to someone who is actually working, who secured their own job without help from JobPath but who, like many others on the discredited JobPath set-up, was receiving phone calls asking for details of their employment to secure payment for having found them a job - which they didn't.

Stick to the facts of course.

The fact is that someone is not sent to the job path programme (which existed long before seetec) when they are long term unemployed or i gather when they are suspected of working cash in hand.

Somehow the story on here is always "i was sent to seetec but i found my own job off my own back". Well why didnt you find said job before you were sent to seetec?

Then of course there is the whole taking credit rubbish. Who cares if jobpath take credit? What, your saving the tax payer yea? The tax payer who you have been living off of this whole time until jobpath helped you get a job.

A friend of mine was complaining about them recently. Same argument. Got a job by himself. Said they forced him to do an interview course and a cv course. Made him do mock interviews and so on..... so they helped prepare him yet he feels because they didnt walk him to a job that he got the job off his own back?

The provide a service and help people who want help. If you dont want help then how can they help? Of course they deserve to be paid. Unemployment is at a brilliant low right now. Jobpath while aparantly has been discredited is the most successful back to work scheme we have in this country. Problem is too many politicians looking for votes from a certain demographic who love to blame everyone else for their issues.