US Presidential Election 2020

Gbear

Nody wrote: »

And the statewide corruption, the people living in poverty, the poor quality of service, houses etc. are what, improvement?

The thing is in a democracy you get the government you vote for

This is only true up to a point.

With about 42%, the Conservative party in the UK only got 2% more votes than Labour in 2017 and got 50 more seats, and close to a majority. Even in the recent landslide, they only got under 44% of the votes. I don't know how many times in history there has been a government with an actual mandate of the majority of the voters in the UK, but I can't imagine it happens often.

In the US, the House of Representatives is more or less proportional (there's a bit of shenanigans at the fringes with some states being so tiny), but the Senate and the President don't hold power in proportion to their nationwide support.
Only something like 19% of Americans voted for Trump.

There are arguments about what the roles are of different government bodies, and whether you need proportional representation in a federal system, but you need to have the appropriate level of devolution and limits on power in those circumstances, and that's certainly not true of the Executive branch of the US.

Water John

This book by Rick Wilson, Running against the Devil, should be interesting.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/11/donald-trump-rick-wilson-running-against-the-devil

He is co-founder of the Super Pac; Lincoln Project, and he favours Biden as the person to beat Trump.
It's an interesting viewpoint.

ghost of ireland past

I think Biden has no chance. He is too much like Hillary. He has nothing to offer except he's not offensive. Except of course he is gaff prone and says stupid things like the story about when he was a lifeguard and how he has hairy legs. Inexplicable stuff.

I also read recently
Alienated America: Why Some Places Thrive While Others Collapse
Book by Timothy P. Carney

and I think it was very good. I don't agree with his conclusion that we need the Church back to give people purpose but I think we need secular social outlets for people, like Men's Sheds, and Tidy Towns initatives, things that get the community together and give people a purpose.


People are voting for Trump because of a loss of social structure in the US. Communities are being destroyed as large employers close shop and head to cheaper countries. Large numbers of people feel like they have no purpose as a result.

Trump offers a vision and he offers a purpose. He tells Americans that they are great and that is soothing for Americans even if some of them must know it's not true.

Trump is unstoppable as nobody has the answer to America's problems. America's previous glories cannot be easily restored.

ghost of ireland past

Water John wrote: »

This book by Rick Wilson, Running against the Devil, should be interesting.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/11/donald-trump-rick-wilson-running-against-the-devil

He is co-founder of the Super Pac; Lincoln Project, and he favours Biden as the person to beat Trump.
It's an interesting viewpoint.

I also read Rick Wilson's, Everything Trump Touches Dies.


He is very biting in his use of language. He is a Republican strategist but it seems he has now defected and works for the Democrats. (only in the sense that he is highly critical of Trump)


He seems to be very much on the ball about many things and he would be a fearsome opponent. He knows how to run political campaigns, especially the underhand stuff.

marno21

Gbear wrote: »

In the US, the House of Representatives is more or less proportional (there's a bit of shenanigans at the fringes with some states being so tiny), but the Senate and the President don't hold power in proportion to their nationwide support.
Only something like 19% of Americans voted for Trump..

The House is reasonably representative but it suffers from gerrymandering which skews it some bit

Take North Carolina for example. The 2018 House election was won 50-48 by Republicans, but they won 10 seats and the Democrats won 3.

There are examples of this countrywide. Take a look at Texas’ 2nd Congressional District in Houston for one.

greenfield21

Just on china. Why should anyone feel sorry for the US and especially mnc's in the west.its to late to care about this issue now.

When all these large scale companies were moving out of the US to increase their margins no one cared- the companies definitely didn't care. They didn't give a crap about how there products were made and environmental issues, workers rights, product quality. All they wanted was the short term gain and huge advantage been located in china gave them- higher margins etc.

It's only now these companies are starting to panic when they know that China has robbed them of Billions of intellectual property and has launched its own multinational Giants as competition.

The Chinese have already come for our textiles,household goods, tech components companies etc. now they are moving into healthcare, pharma,software tech,heavy machinery etc. they are moving up the value chain at an incredible speed.

They are going to gut the likes of Germany and the US. No politician seems to care though, Christ just look at the trump thread where we have had years of gibberish and hardly ever a mention of any policy ideas The politicians never think long term the people definitely don't. But yeah agree with previous poster above the future is most definitely China's.

duploelabs

https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1216437138625003522?s=19

ghost of ireland past

The political discourse in the US just seems so childish. So many stupid memes about socialism.

Americans hate socialism. That means they hate sharing and helping other people.

Most families are run on a social basis. Parents don't insist their children must work like slaves for food.

Americans really seem to have no idea as to what makes a country good to live in. A majority of Americans seem to like the macho dog-eat-dog system even though most of them will never succeed.

StringerBell

If you look a bit closer, they don't hate socialism at all. Just the word, socialism, communism, Marxism, they hate the terms. What they associate them with. In turn then these buzzwords are used to rile up bases and divide.

Country is ****ed, been saying that a long time.

pixelburp

Equally, you arguably have a generational issue now occurring, one where younger demographics are growing up without that huge stigma attached to those words; socialism is just another system in the eyes of some IMO, especially those who have benefited from things like the ACA or more progressive states' policies. The USSR is a faded memory, while capitalism's shine has never seemed more scuffed. Ironically it has taken a Boomer to highlight that socialist policies are not necessarily the devil here, even though you'll see Fox persist with this "commie" narrative, or paint Western Europe as borderline failed states...

StringerBell

Oh yeah, labelling certain policies the big scary socialist while saying nothing about the socialist policy of subsidising the farmers etc is just another example of how it's all optics, it's all about perception, controlling narratives and spin.

ancapailldorcha

pixelburp wrote: »

Equally, you arguably have a generational issue now occurring, one where younger demographics are growing up without that huge stigma attached to those words; socialism is just another system in the eyes of some IMO, especially those who have benefited from things like the ACA or more progressive states' policies. The USSR is a faded memory, while capitalism's shine has never seemed more scuffed. Ironically it has taken a Boomer to highlight that socialist policies are not necessarily the devil here, even though you'll see Fox persist with this "commie" narrative, or paint Western Europe as borderline failed states...

I think that this is an excellent point. A lot of people like to tar Trump as a fascist. Whether or not he is one, it's become an abstract term without any meaning.

In addition to this, Trump, Brexiters and so on have legitimised highly disingenuous tactics such as dismissing opinions and evidence they do not like as fake news. Trump and the GOP are the establishment. There's only so long you can spend in power before your anti-establishment credentials ebb away.

reg114

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think that this is an excellent point. A lot of people like to tar Trump as a fascist. Whether or not he is one, it's become an abstract term without any meaning.

In addition to this, Trump, Brexiters and so on have legitimised highly disingenuous tactics such as dismissing opinions and evidence they do not like as fake news. Trump and the GOP are the establishment. There's only so long you can spend in power before your anti-establishment credentials ebb away.

Trump just needs to convince the same base he convinced last time to get him over the line, sadly I believe he will.

The Dems are still in shock from losing to Trump the last time. Winning the House back has not yielded the momentum Pelosi would have hoped. The Mueller investigation has come to nothing of substance. The Dems attempt to impeach Trump has been stuttering at best and will fail ultimately if it reaches the Senate. Then you have a motley crue of Dem candidates seeking to challenge Trump. Biden will most likely win the nomination and if he does, then America is looking at another 4 years of Trump. Biden just isn't smart enough to take Trump on. Biden was VP material for a reason, VPs do not make presidents.

StringerBell

Trump's base isn't enough for him to win, same as it wasn't last time, or like it wasn't to stop the blue wave in the house last year.

I'm not saying he won't win, but he needs more than his base. Nobody's base is big enough to win a general alone.

ghost of ireland past

SNIP. Enough of the China stuff please.

duploelabs

StringerBell wrote: »

Trump's base isn't enough for him to win, same as it wasn't last time, or like it wasn't to stop the blue wave in the house last year.

I'm not saying he won't win, but he needs more than his base. Nobody's base is big enough to win a general alone.

This!

Trump's win was partially down to the blue-collared manufacturing workers who saw HC as 'too corporate' for them and gave their vote to Trump in the hope that he'd be 'their guy' but his promise to maintain their jobs failed far far short and he hasn't done anything to maintain their vote.

ghost of ireland past

There are many reasons as to why Americans are disillusioned. It is not just one single reason.

The guy who wrote Alienated America ultimately concluded that it was the loss of social structure that is causing the alienation and disillusionment in America. He believes social structure gives people purpose and hope. He advocates for the return of the Church but I think the same effect can be achieved with other things, like Men's Sheds and Tidy Towns for example. If people have nothing to do and no purpose they will turn to drugs and to Trump.


Andy Yang has different reasons.. 'because America automated away four million jobs in retail, etc etc, and now my friends in Silicone Valley intend to automate away another 3 million truck driving jobs and 6 or 7 million other jobs depend on those human truckers so they'll be lost too'.

Andy Yang has a vision for the whole of society and that is what's needed. The others are too focussed on just the economy. There's more to life than the economy.

Trump cashes in by appealing to disillusioned people and promising them things he cannot deliver on. It takes effort to analyze the situation correctly and so most people don't bother.


Democracy doesn't work if a majority of people are idiots, but it also doesn't work if everyone is out of a job and has no purpose. The problem is that many Americans have a totally unrealistic view of America and it's place in the world.


Trump will win because you cannot out-Trump Trump.
or
Americans are mostly a-holes and he is King A-hole.

Itssoeasy

Corey booker has dropped out of the presidential race thankfully.

PopePalpatine

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Corey booker has dropped out of the presidential race thankfully.

I swear I read that last week.

I think Yang is right to raise concerns about those whose jobs are at threat from automation, but the debate would just degenerate into "hurr durr Venezuela" thanks to Zuckerberg's blue sewer.

ghost of ireland past

I don't know why Americans are against receiving free money.

They are actually against the Freedom Dividend. I just don't understand it.

It is simple to understand. Amercia is rich and this is your share, which you deserve. What's wrong with that? It makes total sense.

StringerBell

Thought I clicked into the wrong thread there. Couldn't figure out that the last post had to do with the title

Booker dropping out is about time tbh, he had a bit of the Corbyn about him in that he claimed to be winning he arguement on the ground but never really made the connection with the electorate outside his own circle seemingly.

A very capable politician and I wouldn't be surprised to see him come again or take an administration position, even VP depending on the eventual nominee.

Nody

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

I don't know why Americans are against receiving free money.

They are actually against the Freedom Dividend. I just don't understand it.

It is simple to understand. Amercia is rich and this is your share, which you deserve. What's wrong with that? It makes total sense.

Two things; first of all and probably most important it's from the wrong party. You see if the Republicans proposed it is ok (and they have fort he rich with the tax cuts etc.). Secondly because it's the wrong party that's smells a lot like socialism which we know is bad because America was against it earlier so clearly it has to be bad.

Rjd2

The strong numbers for Bernie has clearly worried the Dem establishment and rivals thus this bollocks narrative that Warren and her mainstream media enablers have tried to paint Bernie as a sexist.

Its a galling smear and Warren should be ashamed of herself,,but she did back Clinton over Bernie in 2016 so its not a surprise.

It's just a starter though,,,Bernie will come under serious fire now,,,those who see Putin under there beds will question his loyalty also.

Going to be interesting if he can fight them off.

Warren squabbling with Bernie does only harm when it comes to getting rid of Trump. She and her campaign should know better.

pixelburp

Yeah, the smear seems quite pointed; was always going to happen once the real battle got closer. Remember 2008 and Clinton's transparent attempts to smear Obama as a Muslim? The gloves were bound to come off eventually, even between those ostensibly chummy like Warren & Sanders.

Funny thing, this smells of something that probably was said, albeit in passing, and where the context is now lost. It could have been Sanders shooting the breeze: speculating that America remains so sexist it would struggle to elect a female President; a sentiment I would agree with TBH - especially in the Bible Belt where "a woman's place..." persists to an extent. Of course like photos of Obama in Kenyan dress attempting to muddy the waters, the cynical electioneering has rebadged this as "Sanders is sexist", and thus comes the outrage & Warren / Klobaucher, doing what I might call "pulling a Swinson", weaponising their gender.

As ever, the Democrats implode right on cue. I hope Warren takes the temperature and tells her staff to put that particular attack back in the box - cos it makes her & Sanders look bad IMO. And only helps Biden look the man of reason and sober centrism.

ghost of ireland past

ghost of ireland past wrote: »

I don't know why Americans are against receiving free money.

They are actually against the Freedom Dividend. I just don't understand it.

It is simple to understand. Amercia is rich and this is your share, which you deserve. What's wrong with that? It makes total sense.

Because he's against universal healthcare, so a large chunk of people's UBI, is going to go straight towards health insurance/ medical bills and into the pockets of the health care/insurance industry.

It'll jeopardise the social safety net.

It won't be spent in the local community, 'vacation', or any of the other fluffy ducks he claims it'll do.

It's a big swindle.

Fonny122

America has a social safety net?

StringerBell

Warren is now an establishment Democrat? Herself and Bernie share the same lane so I'm not sure how this is correct.

I would say that if it was said it was not in the context portrayed at all. Anyway, as we get closer to the primaries these things will happen. I would prefer it if they didn't get into a scenario like now, where someone has to be lying but it could still be cleaned up in theory.

circadian

Seems like a ****ty attempt at a smear, which is a shame because out of the 3 current frontrunners Warren and Sanders should be holding themselves to a standard above this type of tactic.

I'd say if it came down to Sanders or Warren the DNC would be backing Warren to the hilt. Her medicare plan has been exposed as not a complete overhaul at all, there would be other questions around her commitment to policies she shares, at least on the face of it, with Sanders.

spacecoyote

What did Warren actually say. From the reporting I've seen, it seemed she was more remarking on sexism within america and the lack of a chance for a woman to win the presidency?

Did she make specific accusations about Sanders?