The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V3

eagle eye

Foxtrol wrote: »

The only thing I'm confused about is why you'd try to support your opinion with an example of a player that is clearly a complete outlier. For every Brady there are hundreds of examples of later round QBs that looked god awful in preseason and never improved to be NFL starter level, forget about the level of Brady or even Dak.

It doesn't matter is what I'm telling you. The only preseason game you can take anything out of is the third one and it's only the starters in that game that matter.
My using Brady as an example is showing you that these games don't point anything out. Brady is the prime example of that.
Another more recent example would be Baker Mayfield who was poor in preseason last year.

Foxtrol wrote: »

What you basically said was that White might be the answer, which I can see little to no evidence of aside from some online hype. I had to double take when I read your post after seeing him at the weekend.

As I said the only way you'll ever know if he is good enough is if he plays with the starters.

Foxtrol wrote: »

If you're saying the player might be better than a 3 year QB starter, that in that time led his team to 2 playoffs, won rookie of the year, and 2 pro bowls (no matter how little you rate them), then yes I expect him to stand out or at least look competent.

I'm not writing White off but saying he might be better than Dak is absolute nonsense at this point.

Dak looked good his first year for sure but he has been very ordinary ever since.
I'm not saying that White is good enough either but I'd love to see him get reps with the firsts. I'm saying it'd make Dak think about things and I'm saying you could get lucky and have a better QB.

Foxtrol

eagle eye wrote: »

It doesn't matter is what I'm telling you. The only preseason game you can take anything out of is the third one and it's only the starters in that game that matter.
My using Brady as an example is showing you that these games don't point anything out. Brady is the prime example of that.
Another more recent example would be Baker Mayfield who was poor in preseason last year.

Pointing to Brady as an example is like saying you should quit your job and buy lottery tickets because a guy down the street won the lottery. Yes, Brady shows it can potentially happen but the 100s of failed late round QBs show it is incredibly unlikely. Brady is the exception to the rule and for a team to base their future on chasing that exception is crazy.

As I said the only way you'll ever know if he is good enough is if he plays with the starters.

Dak looked good his first year for sure but he has been very ordinary ever since.
I'm not saying that White is good enough either but I'd love to see him get reps with the firsts. I'm saying it'd make Dak think about things and I'm saying you could get lucky and have a better QB.

Last year the Cowboys had 10 games that were one score games and you're advocating dropping in a 3rd string QB into the 4th quarter in the regular season when he hasn't even thrown a TD in the 5 preseason games he's played?

Going by that logic, are you advocating that every team throw their 3rd string young QB in with their starters in regular season games? You appear to believe that teams should gamble that they 'might' be better than the their franchise QB and that there is no other way that the coaching staff can tell if that is the case other than playing in non preseason games with the starters.

eagle eye

Foxtrol wrote: »

Pointing to Brady as an example is like saying you should quit your job and buy lottery tickets because a guy down the street won the lottery. Yes, Brady shows it can potentially happen but the 100s of failed late round QBs show it is incredibly unlikely. Brady is the exception to the rule and for a team to base their future on chasing that exception is crazy.

I'm pointing out how bad Brady looked in preseason games. I'm not pointing out that he is the GOAT. I'm pointing out that even the GOAT looked bad in preseason games.
There are loads of great QB's who looked back in preseason. There are obviously loads who looked good in preseason and were crap. I'm telling you that you cannot base anything on preseason as regards QB's.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Last year the Cowboys had 10 games that were one score games and you're advocating dropping in a 3rd string QB into the 4th quarter in the regular season when he hasn't even thrown a TD in the 5 preseason games he's played?

I'm sure there are plenty of QB's who you know won't make it as a regular season QB but I think White might. I'm not saying he will but I think if you put him in like you are preparing to be without Dak then it serves two purposes. Firstly it shows Dak you are willing to gamble on going without him, as an aside other teams will question why you are doing it and maybe pull back on making a big offer to him.At the same time you get to see what White is like in a regular season game.

You seem to be of the opinion that I'm saying Mike White will make it which I have never said. You seem to be suggesting that I'm saying that Mike White is better than Dak which I'm not.

What I am saying is that I don't think that Dak is worth the money the Cowboys are offering, nevermind the money he seems to want.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Going by that logic, are you advocating that every team throw their 3rd string young QB in with their starters in regular season games? You appear to believe that teams should gamble that they 'might' be better than the their franchise QB and that there is no other way that the coaching staff can tell if that is the case other than playing in non preseason games with the starters.

I'm not advocating that every team throw in their backups. I never said that or even came close to suggesting it. There are certain backup QB's who I believe should get a shot somewhere, Mike White is one of those as is Sean Mannion who just signed as backup with the Vikings.

Foxtrol

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm pointing out how bad Brady looked in preseason games. I'm not pointing out that he is the GOAT. I'm pointing out that even the GOAT looked bad in preseason games.
There are loads of great QB's who looked back in preseason. There are obviously loads who looked good in preseason and were crap. I'm telling you that you cannot base anything on preseason as regards QB's.

If Brady is not such an outlier, can you give me a list of QBs since he debuted of ones drafted in the 5th round or later that stunk up preseason and then became above average NFL starters, achieving more than Dak?

I'm sure there are plenty of QB's who you know won't make it as a regular season QB but I think White might. I'm not saying he will but I think if you put him in like you are preparing to be without Dak then it serves two purposes. Firstly it shows Dak you are willing to gamble on going without him, as an aside other teams will question why you are doing it and maybe pull back on making a big offer to him.At the same time you get to see what White is like in a regular season game.

You seem to be of the opinion that I'm saying Mike White will make it which I have never said. You seem to be suggesting that I'm saying that Mike White is better than Dak which I'm not.

You've clearly stated that you believe that he 'might' be better than Dak and have so far provided absolute no evidence to support this, aside from how you 'feel' and randomly pointing to Brady. To counter it, I've presented preseason performances and how his coaches have treated him.

What I am saying is that I don't think that Dak is worth the money the Cowboys are offering, nevermind the money he seems to want.

That's a completely seperate discussion to the utter madness of trying to get one up in negotiations through risking your season by throwing in a third string QB.

I'm not advocating that every team throw in their backups. I never said that or even came close to suggesting it. There are certain backup QB's who I believe should get a shot somewhere, Mike White is one of those as is Sean Mannion who just signed as backup with the Vikings.

But your logic is that White 'might' be better if he played with the starters, despite not showing anything special so far to indicate that he would. Why does that not hold for all QBs?

eagle eye

Foxtrol wrote: »

If Brady is not such an outlier, can you give me a list of QBs since he debuted of ones drafted in the 5th round or later that stunk up preseason and then became above average NFL starters, achieving more than Dak?

My point is that the GOAT looked awful in preseason, the position he was drafted in is not important in that context.

Foxtrol wrote: »

You've clearly stated that you believe that he 'might' be better than Dak and have so far provided absolute no evidence to support this, aside from how you 'feel' and randomly pointing to Brady. To counter it, I've presented preseason performances and how his coaches have treated him.

I said if they gave him a run out he might be better. I'm not stating that he is better but I'd fancy he might be good enough to be a solid starter.

I've said all along that you cannot judge a QB in preseason playing with a poor group around him.

Foxtrol wrote: »

That's a completely seperate discussion to the utter madness of trying to get one up in negotiations through risking your season by throwing in a third string QB.

I said throw him in in the fourth quarter, not for the whole game.

Foxtrol wrote: »

But your logic is that White 'might' be better if he played with the starters, despite not showing anything special so far to indicate that he would. Why does that not hold for all QBs?

The reason I mention White and Mannion is that they don't do stupid things. This is what I believe separates those who make it from those who don't. That of course is of the group of players who have a good arm, check down quickly, have good pocket presence and good footwork.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman

A conversation about Dak and his contract ... yeah lets talk about Brady being **** in preseason 20 years ago.

Ah football season.

Foxtrol

eagle eye wrote: »

My point is that the GOAT looked awful in preseason, the position he was drafted in is not important in that context.

So I take it you can't give me any other examples then... :rolleyes:

It has plenty of importance, teams put an enormous effort into drafting QBs and for a guy to fall to the 5th, like White, or 6th, like Brady, it is due to plenty of concerns about them. It is completely different for them to struggle in camp and preseason games than a number 1 pick, like Baker who you used as another example.

I said if they gave him a run out he might be better. I'm not stating that he is better but I'd fancy he might be good enough to be a solid starter.

I've said all along that you cannot judge a QB in preseason playing with a poor group around him.

You're saying he might be better than a former rookie of the year, 2 time pro bowler, 2 trips to the playoffs, still based on zero evidence aside from your feeling.

I said throw him in in the fourth quarter, not for the whole game.

The Cowboys had 10 games that they won by a point last year, Dak led them to 8-2 in those games, so it is crazy to throw a completely untested player into an anyway close regualr season game. There's a reason why teams rarely throw backup QBs in, even top tier ones, unless they have an unsurmountable lead, and at that point most of the other star players would be pulled anyway.

The reason I mention White and Mannion is that they don't do stupid things. This is what I believe separates those who make it from those who don't. That of course is of the group of players who have a good arm, check down quickly, have good pocket presence and good footwork.

What I saw last weekend and the rate he takes sacks playing him so far with the Cowboys (10 sacks playing 5 partial games) would put into question what your eye is telling you regarding his apparent quick check downs, pocket presence, and footwork.

Even completely discounting preseason, if he was as good as you believe he would be easily beating Rush to the QB2 role in camp or there would at least the Cowboys media onsite clamouring for that to happen, but White hasn't come close to that. After a quick check of a few Cowboys fan sites, White isn't even projected to make the 53 man roster on any of them, he looks to be more likely to be fighting to stay in the league than fighting to take a starting QB role from Dak or anyone else.

At this stage we're going around in circles, which I'm sure is boring everyone, so unless you have some additional evidence more than feelings to back up that insanely risky negotiation plan we should just leave this here.

eagle eye

Foxtrol wrote: »

At this stage we're going around in circles, which I'm sure is boring everyone, so unless you have some additional evidence more than feelings to back up that insanely risky negotiation plan we should just leave this here.

Yeah only thing I have to add is that it's pointless having a conversation with you when it's clear you just want to disagree all the time.

I was definitely done with this. You keep on trucking and disagreeing and making up stuff that the person you are arguing with never actually said.
And just to add, I won't be responding to you anymore.

brinty

Wow folks going at it about Dak... as the main cowboy on these pages I’ll say the $40m is a negotiation point, he’s not going to ask for less than the market he starts high Cowboys go low and they meet somewhere close to the middle. Basic negotiations

I’m involved in the UK Cowboys fan club and we discussed this on our weekly podcast this week with a member of the Cowboys media team. He says the deal will get done but it’s just a matter of the guaranteed money and he wants similar to Carson Wentz $107m guarantee seeing as they were in the same class, Daks missed no game time and was OROTY in 16 and has been QB for two divisional wins.

On the back up spot Rush and white haven’t really done much to differentiate themselves when given chances. they’ve had runs with starting o line in camp and done nothing to suggest either is good enough. We believed on the podcast one will be cut or traded as we’re not to going to carry three QB’s for this season.

Itssoeasy

It seems the Colts front office haven't been on the same page as to what is the issue limiting Andrew Luck this off season. It's now a high ankle sprain.

raze_them_all_

brinty wrote: »

Wow folks going at it about Dak... as the main cowboy on these pages I’ll say the $40m is a negotiation point, he’s not going to ask for less than the market he starts high Cowboys go low and they meet somewhere close to the middle. Basic negotiations

I’m involved in the UK Cowboys fan club and we discussed this on our weekly podcast this week with a member of the Cowboys media team. He says the deal will get done but it’s just a matter of the guaranteed money and he wants similar to Carson Wentz $107m guarantee seeing as they were in the same class, Daks missed no game time and was OROTY in 16 and has been QB for two divisional wins.

On the back up spot Rush and white haven’t really done much to differentiate themselves when given chances. they’ve had runs with starting o line in camp and done nothing to suggest either is good enough. We believed on the podcast one will be cut or traded as we’re not to going to carry three QB’s for this season.

We know how negotiations work. But he's not worth 30 million let alone the 35 he will probably look to get

raze_them_all_

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

We know how negotiations work. But he's not worth 30 million let alone the 35 he will probably look to get

He's next qb up. goffs not worth it either but he will likely get slightly more than dak

raze_them_all_

Lily Thoughtless Swimmer wrote: »

He's next qb up. goffs not worth it either but he will likely get slightly more than dak

Geoff been to a sb though. He has that. What does dak have?? I make us slightly less irrelelivant

The_Honeybadger

Lily Thoughtless Swimmer wrote: »

He's next qb up. goffs not worth it either but he will likely get slightly more than dak

Both are probably in that middle tier of QB’s behind Brady, Brees, Wilson, Luck, Mahomes and a couple of others.

They are good QB’s in the right setup but won’t elevate your franchise the way some of the guys above do. Is that worth $30m out of a circa $190m cap? I don’t think it is personally but it’s easy to say when you are not running a team.

Is the QB bubble likely to burst at some point?

raze_them_all_

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Both are probably in that middle tier of QB’s behind Brady, Brees, Wilson, Luck, Mahomes and a couple of others.

They are good QB’s in the right setup but won’t elevate your franchise the way some of the guys above do. Is that worth $30m out of a circa $190m cap? I don’t think it is personally but it’s easy to say when you are not running a team.

Is the QB bubble likely to burst at some point?

I reckon cap will raise to about 220 before it does. Qbs are important but eventually they will have to measure if that extra 10 million is worth all the sacks and not having someone to throw to

AbusesToilets

Itssoeasy wrote: »

It seems the Colts front office haven't been on the same page as to what is the issue limiting Andrew Luck this off season. It's now a high ankle sprain.

Is Brisset still with the Colts this year?

Foxtrol

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Both are probably in that middle tier of QB’s behind Brady, Brees, Wilson, Luck, Mahomes and a couple of others.

They are good QB’s in the right setup but won’t elevate your franchise the way some of the guys above do. Is that worth $30m out of a circa $190m cap? I don’t think it is personally but it’s easy to say when you are not running a team.

Is the QB bubble likely to burst at some point?

I don't think it will burst but QB supply is starting to catch up with demand. Nearly every team has a relatively functional QB at this stage, at least to the point where they aren't several teams that are QB or bust in the draft.

The only point where it may burst is when a few winning teams show that they can drop a Tier 2 QB, especially one at the end of their rookie contract, and continue their success through picking one up in the draft or as a cheaper FA. Few winning teams have had the balls to do that, as it is such a huge risk to the team if the guy you bring in performs worse, especially when the winning window for most teams is so small.

D9Male

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Is Brisset still with the Colts this year?

Yes. He is one of the better backup QB's in the league, in my view.

The_Honeybadger

Foxtrol wrote: »

I don't think it will burst but QB supply is starting to catch up with demand. Nearly every team has a relatively functional QB at this stage, at least to the point where they aren't several teams that are QB or bust in the draft.

The only point where it may burst is when a few winning teams show that they can drop a Tier 2 QB, especially one at the end of their rookie contract, and continue their success through picking one up in the draft or as a cheaper FA. Few winning teams have had the balls to do that, as it is such a huge risk to the team if the guy you bring in performs worse, especially when the winning window for most teams is so small.

I suppose the chiefs are a good example. They realised that Alex Smith was a good QB that will get you to 10-6 or 11-5 but you’ll probably end up one and done in the playoffs. They went out and got Mahomes and look set to really challenge now.

Of course Pat Mahomes was a spectacular success and you are just as likely to end up with Paxton Lynch or Brock Osweiler. It’s a huge gamble for a franchise with a serviceable QB to move on. You then have guys like Cousins and Garropolo setting the market and making it impossible to get value from a middle of the road guy. Tricky one for GM’s

Foxtrol

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

I suppose the chiefs are a good example. They realised that Alex Smith was a good QB that will get you to 10-6 or 11-5 but you’ll probably end up one and done in the playoffs. They went out and got Mahomes and look set to really challenge now.

Of course Pat Mahomes was a spectacular success and you are just as likely to end up with Paxton Lynch or Brock Osweiler. It’s a huge gamble for a franchise with a serviceable QB to move on. You then have guys like Cousins and Garropolo setting the market and making it impossible to get value from a middle of the road guy. Tricky one for GM’s

Chiefs would be the closest I can think of but they are still very different to the Cowboys or Rams. Even if you see Smith and Dak/Goff in the same tier, Smith was 34 when they moved on from him, meaning it was likely to start seeing him go down hill in the near furture and needing replacement anyway, which is very different to guys in their mid twenties, who have unlikely yet reached their peak and could play for another 10+ years. You're not only gambling that your replacement you find is good enough to keep your team winning, you're also gambling that the QB you're letting go is not going to improve further.

thomond2006

Derwin James injured in practice.

The Chargers are cursed.

Onecoolcookie

thomond2006 wrote: »

Derwin James injured in practice.

The Chargers are cursed.

Not even a Chargers fan but would love to see that team fulfill their potential, Rivers can't have too long left.

Itssoeasy

thomond2006 wrote: »

Derwin James injured in practice.

The Chargers are cursed.

Maybe the stadium in San Diego was built on a burial ground and by leaving they upset the mystical Balance and got cursed.

Itssoeasy

Adam schefter is reporting that the NFL are going to reinstate patriots WR Josh Gordon. Hopefully he’s in a good place and can show his obvious talent.

Edit: Ian rappaport is saying he’s “conditionally reinstated” from Sunday.

jack presley

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Adam schefter is reporting that the NFL are going to reinstate patriots WR Josh Gordon. Hopefully he’s in a good place and can show his obvious talent.

Edit: Ian rappaport is saying he’s “conditionally reinstated” from Sunday.

So how long before he’s banned again?

Itssoeasy

jack presley wrote: »

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Adam schefter is reporting that the NFL are going to reinstate patriots WR Josh Gordon. Hopefully he’s in a good place and can show his obvious talent.

Edit: Ian rappaport is saying he’s “conditionally reinstated” from Sunday.

So how long before he’s banned again?

Hopefully he isn’t banned again jack. I hope he shows the world how talented he is for the rest of his career and is never banned again.

The_Honeybadger

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Adam schefter is reporting that the NFL are going to reinstate patriots WR Josh Gordon. Hopefully he’s in a good place and can show his obvious talent.

Edit: Ian rappaport is saying he’s “conditionally reinstated” from Sunday.

Let’s hope his problems are behind him. He was actually pretty productive last season from what I remember too so this is good for the Pats

jack presley

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Hopefully he isn’t banned again jack. I hope he shows the world how talented he is for the rest of his career and is never banned again.

Wasn’t the exact same thing said the last time?

Itssoeasy

jack presley wrote: »

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Hopefully he isn’t banned again jack. I hope he shows the world how talented he is for the rest of his career and is never banned again.

Wasn’t the exact same thing said the last time?

Yes it was but I’m saying I’m hopeful that the issues of the past are behind him.

Hazys

Josh Gordon has a serious drug abuse problem. Seeing how this abuse was enabled all through his high school and college years just because he was a star football player, this won’t go away over night. I can only imagine it takes years to get to a stable place and is unlikely to be resolved in a season or two with the Patriots.

I’m cautiously optimistic from a football fan perspective that he can contribute a full season to the patriots but it’s not guaranteed. But moreso I’ve been pulling for him as a person since I saw this documentary;

https://youtu.be/90YP4ntJUQs