Should teachers in the 5 carillion schools pass pickets put there by unpaid sub contr

judeboy101

Bit of an unusual one. Personally I wouldn't, considering that the equipment I and my students would be using for is unpaid for.

keoclassic

Absolutely. It's not a funny one at all, it's just business. Any teacher refusing to go into school because of the picket should be docked wages and reprimanded. It's unfair on those lads, but their contracts are not with the school, they need to go through the liquidation process.

SligoBrewer

judeboy101 wrote: »

Bit of an unusual one. Personally I wouldn't, considering that the equipment I and my students would be using for is unpaid for.

Union members of whatever union should never pass a picket tbf.

judeboy101

keoclassic wrote: »

Absolutely. It's not a funny one at all, it's just business. Any teacher refusing to go into school because of the picket should be docked wages and reprimanded. It's unfair on those lads, but their contracts are not with the school, they need to go through the liquidation process.

I'm assuming any student refusing to cross a picket should be disciplined and their parents issued with a fine? Or reported to Tusla?

keoclassic

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'm assuming any student refusing to cross a picket should be disciplined and their parents issued with a fine? Or reported to Tusla?

Ridiculous. The school, teachers, ancillary staff and students have no association with this dispute. Teachers are paid to attend work, the unions haven't a notion of backing this......ffs they expect teachers to starve themselves on their own lunchtimes!! Ridiculous to even entertain such a thread title. Enjoy the thread!

SligoBrewer

keoclassic wrote: »

Ridiculous. The school, teachers, ancillary staff and students have no association with this dispute. Teachers are paid to attend work, the unions haven't a notion of backing this......ffs they expect teachers to starve themselves on their own lunchtimes!! Ridiculous to even entertain such a thread title. Enjoy the thread!

Yeah we do. The Government who pay us, decided PPPs were amazing and have left communities devastated. Do you think that subcontractors want to go into schools and reclaim furniture?

We work in the building. We work for the state. As long as the stuff we'd be using isn't paid for, it's our dispute too and passing the picket would see us labelled as strikebreakers. Those who think it isn't our dispute need to read up on trade unionism.

In summary,

RealJohn

Any union member who passes the picket should be ejected from the union. How can we expect others to support our disputes if we’re going to just ignore the (perfectly legitimate) disputes of others?

Hurrache

I hope all teachers planning on flying Ryanair on their strike days cancel well in advance, wouldn't want to be seen as not supporting the union.

The idea of blindingly not passing a secondary picket is regressive and a relic.

gctest50

RealJohn wrote: »

Any union member who passes the picket should be ejected from the union. How can we expect others to support our disputes if we’re going to just ignore the (perfectly legitimate) disputes of others?

They should go up and protest in front of Sammon Contracting Ireland

y'know - the crew that actually owe them

instead of this celtic-tiger-dying whimpering all over again

man_no_plan

It's not an industrial dispute or picket so it has nothing to do with the Unions really.

It is a dreadful situation. I'm sure that these suppliers aren't doing what they are doing in order to prevent schools from opening or to stop kids from learning. They just want to be paid.

I'd imagine that a claim for repossession could be sought, if I didn't pay for my stuff the sheriff would be out, cant see why this is any different. they should be paid, end of story.

AndrewJRenko

The picket isn't a union strike. It is not an industrial relations dispute.

Do you think the self-employed contractors would pass a teachers' union picket?

evolving_doors

Hurrache wrote: »

I hope all teachers planning on flying Ryanair on their strike days cancel well in advance, wouldn't want to be seen as not supporting the union.

And what if the strikers came to an agreement?

I think a better analogy would be ..."What if Ryanair brought in outside pilots to counteract the strike, what would teachers do then?"

As a general rule, teachers should be sensible enough to not fly ryanair as they treat their staff like crap.

evolving_doors

judeboy101 wrote: »

Bit of an unusual one. Personally I wouldn't, considering that the equipment I and my students would be using for is unpaid for.

I suspect the school hasn't been released, nor will it be until all works are finished and it's signed off. Has it been signed over to the patron thingy?

Hurrache

evolving_doors wrote: »

And what if the strikers came to an agreement?

I think a better analogy would be ..."What if Ryanair brought in outside pilots to counteract the strike, what would teachers do then?"

No, it's not a better analogy at all, unless you're claiming the teachers are going into the school to do a bit of carpentry, wire a few plugs and throw in a bit of carpentry after lunch?

Trasna1

RealJohn wrote: »

Any union member who passes the picket should be ejected from the union. How can we expect others to support our disputes if we’re going to just ignore the (perfectly legitimate) disputes of others?

The dispute is not legitimate and the taking of property from the schools is theft. The dept has paid for the equipment, the contractors beef is with Sammon - who haven't paid their subcontractors. The liquidation process exists for this dispute to be resolved. What these lads are at is hoping the government will step in and buy all this equipment off them again -pay for it twice essentially.

Businesses should not expose themselves to one creditor in a way that threatens the viability of their own company if the debt goes bad.

It's a harsh lesson, it's unfair - but its business at the end of the day.

Trasna1

evolving_doors wrote: »

And what if the strikers came to an agreement?

I think a better analogy would be ..."What if Ryanair brought in outside pilots to counteract the strike, what would teachers do then?"

As a general rule, teachers should be sensible enough to not fly ryanair as they treat their staff like crap.

What businesses can teachers use since there are so many that treat their workers less well than the public sector? If you were to take that attitude into practice, the only services teachers could use would be state run.

TheDriver

If you don't want to use equipment that hasn't been paid for, then you shouldn't use anything that arrives to a school for a month or two as nearly everything is bought on credit as per regular business transactions.

blanch152

If you don't want to pass a picket, don't pass the picket.

However, accept the consequences. If not passing a picket means you can't turn up for work, expect to lose a day's pay.

SligoBrewer

TheDriver wrote: »

If you don't want to use equipment that hasn't been paid for, then you shouldn't use anything that arrives to a school for a month or two as nearly everything is bought on credit as per regular business transactions.

There's a bit of a difference between that and creditors at the gates picketing for money and wanting to claim their rights to repossession like what happened today and you know it.

It would be a cold day that I would walk past a picket line of someone owed money by the Government or a Government enabled PPP. It was ok to break out the chequebook in order of billions to save banks that the Government had nothing to do with whatsoever, but yet they are washing their hands of a PPP that they signed and stopping kids going into schools? I could never pass that picket.

man_no_plan

SligoBrewer wrote: »

There's a bit of a difference between that and creditors at the gates picketing for money and wanting to claim their rights to repossession like what happened today and you know it.

It would be a cold day that I would walk past a picket line of someone owed money by the Government or a Government enabled PPP. It was ok to break out the chequebook in order of billions to save banks that the Government had nothing to do with whatsoever, but yet they are washing their hands of a PPP that they signed and stopping kids going into schools? I could never pass that picket.

These schools aren't in use yet, it will all be fitted by September I'm sure.

We really like getting our knickers in knots over nothing around here...

Skihunta13

Trasna1 wrote: »

RealJohn wrote: »

Any union member who passes the picket should be ejected from the union. How can we expect others to support our disputes if we’re going to just ignore the (perfectly legitimate) disputes of others?

The dispute is not legitimate and the taking of property from the schools is theft. The dept has paid for the equipment, the contractors beef is with Sammon - who haven't paid their subcontractors. The liquidation process exists for this dispute to be resolved. What these lads are at is hoping the government will step in and buy all this equipment off them again -pay for it twice essentially.

Businesses should not expose themselves to one creditor in a way that threatens the viability of their own company if the debt goes bad.

It's a harsh lesson, it's unfair - but its business at the end of the day.

I dont think this is true. Is the idea of these ppp’s that Sammon were involved in that they did not get paid until after a certain number if years of maintaining the buildings.
Anyway sammon were always known for stinging subbies and were about to go bust until carrilion saved them few years back. I never understood why anyone would do work for them. It was no secret in the building trade they were dodgy.

GarIT

SligoBrewer wrote: »

There's a bit of a difference between that and creditors at the gates picketing for money and wanting to claim their rights to repossession like what happened today and you know it.

What happened today was complete scum bullying a school into paying money they already paid by stealing from the school if they don't pay up, it's basically extortion.

The school purchased the school from a company and has paid for it that deal is over and done with. That company the school purchased from had purchased from another company who hasn't been paid, that's between the two companies and has nothing to do with the school.

The people at the schools were just scumbags and bullys. Nobody should pay attention to their ridiculous picket.

GarIT

man_no_plan wrote: »

These schools aren't in use yet, it will all be fitted by September I'm sure.

We really like getting our knickers in knots over nothing around here...

Except the schools having to pay for everything twice maybe? and taking funds away from the students as a result?

SligoBrewer

GarIT wrote: »

What happened today was complete scum bullying a school into paying money they already paid by stealing from the school if they don't pay up, it's basically extortion.

The school purchased the school from a company and has paid for it that deal is over and done with. That company the school purchased from had purchased from another company who hasn't been paid, that's between the two companies and has nothing to do with the school.

The people at the schools were just scumbags and bullys. Nobody should pay attention to their ridiculous picket.

It was people exercising their rights of repossession. If I was owed thousands of euros while a Government wanted to stand back and have nothing to do with it, you bet I'd be outside too.

If people looking to get paid for work they've done or reclaim goods they've sold on good faith is bullying, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

PPPs cut corners in the short term and cost the Government more in the long term. Except now FG have been caught.

SligoBrewer

blanch152 wrote: »

If you don't want to pass a picket, don't pass the picket.

However, accept the consequences. If not passing a picket means you can't turn up for work, expect to lose a day's pay.

Yes, that is how strikes work.

gctest50

SligoBrewer wrote: »

......

If people looking to get paid for work they've done or reclaim goods they've sold on good faith is bullying, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

They've already been paid

Same as if you were a barman at my wedding, then you show up at my door complaining the hotel didn't pay you

Trasna1

SligoBrewer wrote: »

It was people exercising their rights of repossession. If I was owed thousands of euros while a Government wanted to stand back and have nothing to do with it, you bet I'd be outside too.

If people looking to get paid for work they've done or reclaim goods they've sold on good faith is bullying, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

PPPs cut corners in the short term and cost the Government more in the long term. Except now FG have been caught.

They don't have the right of repossession.

No problem with them standing outside, but they don't own the equipment in the school and they have no right to take it. It's theft. Imagine a garage sold you a car but didn't pay the importer. Do you think it would be right for the importer to march into your drive and take back the car?

Whether or not PPPs are an efficient form of government borrowing is an interesting debate, but has nothing to do with this dispute.

gctest50

SligoBrewer wrote: »

.........

It was ok to break out the chequebook in order of billions to save banks that the Government had nothing to do with whatsoever, ..........

And they were doing the same thing

They knew it may be iffy going in, then they cried like mammies boys when it folded :

Skihunta13 wrote: »

...........

Anyway sammon were always known for stinging subbies and were about to go bust until carrilion saved them few years back. I never understood why anyone would do work for them. It was no secret in the building trade they were dodgy.

SligoBrewer

https://rte.ie/r.html?rii=b9_21400648_83_17-07-2018_
In the first few seconds. Are RTE lying?
Later on, are Walsh Furniture lying over their €200k?

Notorious

gctest50 wrote: »

They should go up and protest in front of Sammon Contracting Ireland

Strength in numbers. We should be supporting them just like we expect the public to support us when we strike.

gctest50

SligoBrewer wrote: »

https://rte.ie/r.html?rii=b9_21400648_83_17-07-2018_
In the first few seconds. Are RTE lying?
Later on, are Walsh Furniture lying over their €200k?

What are you ranting about ?

there is a new contractor - because law - they don't have to pay - nothing to do with them

go to court and go get the stuff back

instead of cutting down steel railings like the pikeys in England

what are they going to do with second hand chopped up railings ?

" Fine bit of scrap boss "

All the proper subbies are flat out these days - wouldn't have time for that

GarIT

SligoBrewer wrote: »

https://rte.ie/r.html?rii=b9_21400648_83_17-07-2018_
In the first few seconds. Are RTE lying?
Later on, are Walsh Furniture lying over their €200k?

Subcontractor has not been paid, they are correct, the contractor was paid and is the only entity responsible for paying the subcontractor.

I don't know how many times it needs to be spelled out for people. The school had a contract with a contractor, the school got what it wanted, the contractor got paid, everything on that deal is done.

The contractor decided to hire a subcontractor to do some of it's work, the work was done but the contractor went bust before paying the subcontractor. The only dispute is between the contractor and subcontractor, taking stuff from the school or picketing the school is just bullying scumbag behaviour.

SligoBrewer

GarIT wrote: »

Subcontractor has not been paid, they are correct, the contractor was paid and is the only entity responsible for paying the subcontractor.

I don't know how many times it needs to be spelled out for people. The school had a contract with a contractor, the school got what it wanted, the contractor got paid, everything on that deal is done.

The contractor decided to hire a subcontractor to do some of it's work, the work was done but the contractor went bust before paying the subcontractor. The only dispute is between the contractor and subcontractor, taking stuff from the school or picketing the school is just bullying scumbag behaviour.

You call it bullying, I call it people taking a stand and trying to force the Government to do the right thing.

lawred2

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Union members of whatever union should never pass a picket tbf.

that's absolute nonsense

How is Carillion's collapse a Teacher's union issue?

Teachers have no association whatsoever to what happened here.

Trasna1

SligoBrewer wrote: »

You call it bullying, I call it people taking a stand and trying to force the Government to do the right thing.

And the right thing is pay for this stuff twice?

As I asked you already, if you bought a car from a dealer and the importer wasn't paid by the dealer, would you be happy for the importer to walk into your drive and take it back? And then attempt to sell it to you again?!

lawred2

SligoBrewer wrote: »

You call it bullying, I call it people taking a stand and trying to force the Government to do the right thing.

the government/state has done the right thing

It paid the contractor in full. It honored its contract. It did not have a contract with the subcontractor.

If that's not doing the right thing - I'd love to know what doing the wrong thing would be..

SligoBrewer

lawred2 wrote: »

the government has done the right thing

It paid the contractor in full. It honored its contract. It did not have a contract with the subcontractor.

If that's not doing the right thing - I'd love to know what doing the wrong thing would be..

The right thing wouldn't be to leave it's citizens without the means to put bread on the table.

We were pretty quick to get involved to sort out bondholders because God forbid they would lose money, but when it comes to the little man in the street who is left carrying the can for state ineptitude he's labelled a bullying scumbag for taking a stand.

lawred2

SligoBrewer wrote: »

The right thing wouldn't be to leave it's citizens without the means to put bread on the table.

We were pretty quick to get involved to sort out bondholders because God forbid they would lose money, but when it comes to the little man in the street who is left carrying the can for state ineptitude he's labelled a bullying scumbag for taking a stand.

what ineptitude?

joebloggs32

As far as i know in a PPP school the government puts little or no money up front. They put out a tender to bidders to build a school and then they sign a contract by way of a hire purchase type of agreement over say 20 to 30 years. During that time the school is maintained by a management company as part of the deal.
The beauty of it from the government's point of view is that large infrastructural projects get built without having to put up all the capital up front.
I know a principal of one such school. He says it has reduced his workload immensely as all the stuff to do with maintenance and cleaning etc is handled by the management company.

evolving_doors

Hurrache wrote: »

No, it's not a better analogy at all, unless you're claiming the teachers are going into the school to do a bit of carpentry, wire a few plugs and throw in a bit of carpentry after lunch?

If this were the case the school wouldn't be open in the first place!

Anyone in a union wouldn't be foolish enough to cancel something especially if a strike may not even go ahead.
What most unions do is issue a directive to it's members about what to do in the case of other unions in the same workplace.

This is what happened when the ASTI were striking, the union issued a notice to let other workers on-site (builders, delivery men, postal workers etc).

SligoBrewer

joebloggs32 wrote: »

As far as i know in a PPP school the government puts little or no money up front. They put out a tender to bidders to build a school and then they sign a contract by way of a hire purchase type of agreement over say 20 to 30 years. During that time the school is maintained by a management company as part of the deal.
The beauty of it from the government's point of view is that large infrastructural projects get built without having to put up all the capital up front.
I know a principal of one such school. He says it has reduced his workload immensely as all the stuff to do with maintenance and cleaning etc is handled by the management company.

I know 6 principals who wouldn't exactly be too happy...

evolving_doors

Trasna1 wrote: »

What businesses can teachers use since there are so many that treat their workers less well than the public sector? If you were to take that attitude into practice, the only services teachers could use would be state run.

No. Are lingus is fine.

evolving_doors

SligoBrewer wrote: »

It was people exercising their rights of repossession. If I was owed thousands of euros while a Government wanted to stand back and have nothing to do with it, you bet I'd be outside too.

If people looking to get paid for work they've done or reclaim goods they've sold on good faith is bullying, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

PPPs cut corners in the short term and cost the Government more in the long term. Except now FG have been caught.

Well no... in the case of a company being wound up there is a pecking order for creditors.
So let's say a car company is wound up, the suppliers couldn't come to your house and take the car... now, if the car is still in possession of the company and on their premises in sure you still couldn't go onsite and take the car either in liu of payment not received for other things.

Was the school handed over?
If not, then there simply won't be a school opening in September.
If the school has been handed over then it's theft.

evolving_doors

SligoBrewer wrote: »

You call it bullying, I call it people taking a stand and trying to force the Government to do the right thing.

When a company folds it's just game over.
I tried to take a company to small claims court before but they had just folded... end of... game over. I can't go to their private dwelling and start taking their curtains or garden plants.

judeboy101

evolving_doors wrote: »

When a company folds it's just game over.
I tried to take a company to small claims court before but they had just folded... end of... game over. I can't go to their private dwelling and start taking their curtains or garden plants.

If you supplied the curtains and plants and weren't paid, I'm sure they belong to you and not the company, even if you don't own the property.

evolving_doors

judeboy101 wrote: »

If you supplied the curtains and plants and weren't paid, I'm sure they belong to you and not the company, even if you don't own the property.

I see your point. Are they currently taking back everything they fitted/supplied?

judeboy101

evolving_doors wrote: »

I see your point. Are they currently taking back everything they fitted/supplied?

Some are , others were given permission by Gardaí to do so, but pressure came on Gardaí from their masters in FG/FF and then they were prevented. We can't have brutons new schools not opening.

TheDriver

Is it like the line on invoices that all property remains the property of the company until paid for.
Regarding pickets, there's very strict laws governing industrial disputes which protects everyone but that doesn't including not wanting to pass pickets on your own decision. That leads to discipline action unless officially sanctioned by your union.

judeboy101

TheDriver wrote: »

Is it like the line on invoices that all property remains the property of the company until paid for.
Regarding pickets, there's very strict laws governing industrial disputes which protects everyone but that doesn't including not wanting to pass pickets on your own decision. That leads to discipline action unless officially sanctioned by your union.

If "unofficially" staff collectively tell principal they won't pass, school has to close on health and safety so staff get paid. Happened during sari lock out. Most Tui and non union didn't passed but got paid.

EdgeCase

It very much depends on how the supply contracts were drawn up and you would need to get a court order to go in and repossess something. It’s not as simple as just going and taking it back.

Also they’re probably bespoke fittings and fixtures that have very little value removed from the building anyway, so all you’re doing is punishing the other victim of the dispute, which in this case isn’t even a commercial business, it’s the state and the children who badly need that new school.

The state (all of us) is a victim in this too. We paid for a school and the supplier folded without paying subcontractors.

All you can really do is proceed with the liquidation and figure it out.

TheDriver

judeboy101 wrote: »

If "unofficially" staff collectively tell principal they won't pass, school has to close on health and safety so staff get paid. Happened during sari lock out. Most Tui and non union didn't passed but got paid.

But it would be considered a wildcat strike and is a dangerous avenue.

Regarding the cheapest quote, you just can't win. We'd be up in front of a D committee if we didn't take the cheapest quote without good reason and in this case, there was no reason not to. And things won't change because the CAG is breathing down everyone's necks making sure every bit of expenditure is value. I can see this happening again and again in many areas