Should teachers in the 5 carillion schools pass pickets put there by unpaid sub contr

judeboy101

Bit of an unusual one. Personally I wouldn't, considering that the equipment I and my students would be using for is unpaid for.

keoclassic

Absolutely. It's not a funny one at all, it's just business. Any teacher refusing to go into school because of the picket should be docked wages and reprimanded. It's unfair on those lads, but their contracts are not with the school, they need to go through the liquidation process.

SligoBrewer

judeboy101 wrote: »

Bit of an unusual one. Personally I wouldn't, considering that the equipment I and my students would be using for is unpaid for.

Union members of whatever union should never pass a picket tbf.

judeboy101

keoclassic wrote: »

Absolutely. It's not a funny one at all, it's just business. Any teacher refusing to go into school because of the picket should be docked wages and reprimanded. It's unfair on those lads, but their contracts are not with the school, they need to go through the liquidation process.

I'm assuming any student refusing to cross a picket should be disciplined and their parents issued with a fine? Or reported to Tusla?

keoclassic

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'm assuming any student refusing to cross a picket should be disciplined and their parents issued with a fine? Or reported to Tusla?

Ridiculous. The school, teachers, ancillary staff and students have no association with this dispute. Teachers are paid to attend work, the unions haven't a notion of backing this......ffs they expect teachers to starve themselves on their own lunchtimes!! Ridiculous to even entertain such a thread title. Enjoy the thread!

SligoBrewer

keoclassic wrote: »

Ridiculous. The school, teachers, ancillary staff and students have no association with this dispute. Teachers are paid to attend work, the unions haven't a notion of backing this......ffs they expect teachers to starve themselves on their own lunchtimes!! Ridiculous to even entertain such a thread title. Enjoy the thread!

Yeah we do. The Government who pay us, decided PPPs were amazing and have left communities devastated. Do you think that subcontractors want to go into schools and reclaim furniture?

We work in the building. We work for the state. As long as the stuff we'd be using isn't paid for, it's our dispute too and passing the picket would see us labelled as strikebreakers. Those who think it isn't our dispute need to read up on trade unionism.

In summary,

RealJohn

Any union member who passes the picket should be ejected from the union. How can we expect others to support our disputes if we’re going to just ignore the (perfectly legitimate) disputes of others?

Hurrache

I hope all teachers planning on flying Ryanair on their strike days cancel well in advance, wouldn't want to be seen as not supporting the union.

The idea of blindingly not passing a secondary picket is regressive and a relic.

gctest50

RealJohn wrote: »

Any union member who passes the picket should be ejected from the union. How can we expect others to support our disputes if we’re going to just ignore the (perfectly legitimate) disputes of others?

They should go up and protest in front of Sammon Contracting Ireland

y'know - the crew that actually owe them

instead of this celtic-tiger-dying whimpering all over again

man_no_plan

It's not an industrial dispute or picket so it has nothing to do with the Unions really.

It is a dreadful situation. I'm sure that these suppliers aren't doing what they are doing in order to prevent schools from opening or to stop kids from learning. They just want to be paid.

I'd imagine that a claim for repossession could be sought, if I didn't pay for my stuff the sheriff would be out, cant see why this is any different. they should be paid, end of story.

AndrewJRenko

The picket isn't a union strike. It is not an industrial relations dispute.

Do you think the self-employed contractors would pass a teachers' union picket?

evolving_doors

Hurrache wrote: »

I hope all teachers planning on flying Ryanair on their strike days cancel well in advance, wouldn't want to be seen as not supporting the union.

And what if the strikers came to an agreement?

I think a better analogy would be ..."What if Ryanair brought in outside pilots to counteract the strike, what would teachers do then?"

As a general rule, teachers should be sensible enough to not fly ryanair as they treat their staff like crap.

evolving_doors

judeboy101 wrote: »

Bit of an unusual one. Personally I wouldn't, considering that the equipment I and my students would be using for is unpaid for.

I suspect the school hasn't been released, nor will it be until all works are finished and it's signed off. Has it been signed over to the patron thingy?

Hurrache

evolving_doors wrote: »

And what if the strikers came to an agreement?

I think a better analogy would be ..."What if Ryanair brought in outside pilots to counteract the strike, what would teachers do then?"

No, it's not a better analogy at all, unless you're claiming the teachers are going into the school to do a bit of carpentry, wire a few plugs and throw in a bit of carpentry after lunch?

Trasna1

RealJohn wrote: »

Any union member who passes the picket should be ejected from the union. How can we expect others to support our disputes if we’re going to just ignore the (perfectly legitimate) disputes of others?

The dispute is not legitimate and the taking of property from the schools is theft. The dept has paid for the equipment, the contractors beef is with Sammon - who haven't paid their subcontractors. The liquidation process exists for this dispute to be resolved. What these lads are at is hoping the government will step in and buy all this equipment off them again -pay for it twice essentially.

Businesses should not expose themselves to one creditor in a way that threatens the viability of their own company if the debt goes bad.

It's a harsh lesson, it's unfair - but its business at the end of the day.

Trasna1

evolving_doors wrote: »

And what if the strikers came to an agreement?

I think a better analogy would be ..."What if Ryanair brought in outside pilots to counteract the strike, what would teachers do then?"

As a general rule, teachers should be sensible enough to not fly ryanair as they treat their staff like crap.

What businesses can teachers use since there are so many that treat their workers less well than the public sector? If you were to take that attitude into practice, the only services teachers could use would be state run.

TheDriver

If you don't want to use equipment that hasn't been paid for, then you shouldn't use anything that arrives to a school for a month or two as nearly everything is bought on credit as per regular business transactions.

blanch152

If you don't want to pass a picket, don't pass the picket.

However, accept the consequences. If not passing a picket means you can't turn up for work, expect to lose a day's pay.

SligoBrewer

TheDriver wrote: »

If you don't want to use equipment that hasn't been paid for, then you shouldn't use anything that arrives to a school for a month or two as nearly everything is bought on credit as per regular business transactions.

There's a bit of a difference between that and creditors at the gates picketing for money and wanting to claim their rights to repossession like what happened today and you know it.

It would be a cold day that I would walk past a picket line of someone owed money by the Government or a Government enabled PPP. It was ok to break out the chequebook in order of billions to save banks that the Government had nothing to do with whatsoever, but yet they are washing their hands of a PPP that they signed and stopping kids going into schools? I could never pass that picket.

man_no_plan

SligoBrewer wrote: »

There's a bit of a difference between that and creditors at the gates picketing for money and wanting to claim their rights to repossession like what happened today and you know it.

It would be a cold day that I would walk past a picket line of someone owed money by the Government or a Government enabled PPP. It was ok to break out the chequebook in order of billions to save banks that the Government had nothing to do with whatsoever, but yet they are washing their hands of a PPP that they signed and stopping kids going into schools? I could never pass that picket.

These schools aren't in use yet, it will all be fitted by September I'm sure.

We really like getting our knickers in knots over nothing around here...

Skihunta13

Trasna1 wrote: »

RealJohn wrote: »

Any union member who passes the picket should be ejected from the union. How can we expect others to support our disputes if we’re going to just ignore the (perfectly legitimate) disputes of others?

The dispute is not legitimate and the taking of property from the schools is theft. The dept has paid for the equipment, the contractors beef is with Sammon - who haven't paid their subcontractors. The liquidation process exists for this dispute to be resolved. What these lads are at is hoping the government will step in and buy all this equipment off them again -pay for it twice essentially.

Businesses should not expose themselves to one creditor in a way that threatens the viability of their own company if the debt goes bad.

It's a harsh lesson, it's unfair - but its business at the end of the day.

I dont think this is true. Is the idea of these ppp’s that Sammon were involved in that they did not get paid until after a certain number if years of maintaining the buildings.
Anyway sammon were always known for stinging subbies and were about to go bust until carrilion saved them few years back. I never understood why anyone would do work for them. It was no secret in the building trade they were dodgy.

GarIT

SligoBrewer wrote: »

There's a bit of a difference between that and creditors at the gates picketing for money and wanting to claim their rights to repossession like what happened today and you know it.

What happened today was complete scum bullying a school into paying money they already paid by stealing from the school if they don't pay up, it's basically extortion.

The school purchased the school from a company and has paid for it that deal is over and done with. That company the school purchased from had purchased from another company who hasn't been paid, that's between the two companies and has nothing to do with the school.

The people at the schools were just scumbags and bullys. Nobody should pay attention to their ridiculous picket.

GarIT

man_no_plan wrote: »

These schools aren't in use yet, it will all be fitted by September I'm sure.

We really like getting our knickers in knots over nothing around here...

Except the schools having to pay for everything twice maybe? and taking funds away from the students as a result?

SligoBrewer

GarIT wrote: »

What happened today was complete scum bullying a school into paying money they already paid by stealing from the school if they don't pay up, it's basically extortion.

The school purchased the school from a company and has paid for it that deal is over and done with. That company the school purchased from had purchased from another company who hasn't been paid, that's between the two companies and has nothing to do with the school.

The people at the schools were just scumbags and bullys. Nobody should pay attention to their ridiculous picket.

It was people exercising their rights of repossession. If I was owed thousands of euros while a Government wanted to stand back and have nothing to do with it, you bet I'd be outside too.

If people looking to get paid for work they've done or reclaim goods they've sold on good faith is bullying, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

PPPs cut corners in the short term and cost the Government more in the long term. Except now FG have been caught.

SligoBrewer

blanch152 wrote: »

If you don't want to pass a picket, don't pass the picket.

However, accept the consequences. If not passing a picket means you can't turn up for work, expect to lose a day's pay.

Yes, that is how strikes work.

gctest50

SligoBrewer wrote: »

......

If people looking to get paid for work they've done or reclaim goods they've sold on good faith is bullying, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

They've already been paid

Same as if you were a barman at my wedding, then you show up at my door complaining the hotel didn't pay you

Trasna1

SligoBrewer wrote: »

It was people exercising their rights of repossession. If I was owed thousands of euros while a Government wanted to stand back and have nothing to do with it, you bet I'd be outside too.

If people looking to get paid for work they've done or reclaim goods they've sold on good faith is bullying, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

PPPs cut corners in the short term and cost the Government more in the long term. Except now FG have been caught.

They don't have the right of repossession.

No problem with them standing outside, but they don't own the equipment in the school and they have no right to take it. It's theft. Imagine a garage sold you a car but didn't pay the importer. Do you think it would be right for the importer to march into your drive and take back the car?

Whether or not PPPs are an efficient form of government borrowing is an interesting debate, but has nothing to do with this dispute.

gctest50

SligoBrewer wrote: »

.........

It was ok to break out the chequebook in order of billions to save banks that the Government had nothing to do with whatsoever, ..........

And they were doing the same thing

They knew it may be iffy going in, then they cried like mammies boys when it folded :

Skihunta13 wrote: »

...........

Anyway sammon were always known for stinging subbies and were about to go bust until carrilion saved them few years back. I never understood why anyone would do work for them. It was no secret in the building trade they were dodgy.

SligoBrewer

https://rte.ie/r.html?rii=b9_21400648_83_17-07-2018_
In the first few seconds. Are RTE lying?
Later on, are Walsh Furniture lying over their €200k?

Notorious

gctest50 wrote: »

They should go up and protest in front of Sammon Contracting Ireland

Strength in numbers. We should be supporting them just like we expect the public to support us when we strike.

gctest50

SligoBrewer wrote: »

https://rte.ie/r.html?rii=b9_21400648_83_17-07-2018_
In the first few seconds. Are RTE lying?
Later on, are Walsh Furniture lying over their €200k?

What are you ranting about ?

there is a new contractor - because law - they don't have to pay - nothing to do with them

go to court and go get the stuff back

instead of cutting down steel railings like the pikeys in England

what are they going to do with second hand chopped up railings ?

" Fine bit of scrap boss "

All the proper subbies are flat out these days - wouldn't have time for that