4 way junction - right of way

Black_Knight

There's a junction near me which has little triangular islands in the middle of it, where traffic lights are mounted. They're about 1mx1m. It causes traffic approaching that junction to split. Left traffic goes to the left of the island, straight and right traffic goes to the right of the island. There are no yield signs, markings, filters etc at this junction.

My question is, who has right of way, does the car making the left turn need to yield, and if so, why?

Scenario
In the image below, lights go green for traffic going north and south. A car travelling south is making a left turn to travel east. A car travelling north is making a right turn to travel east also.
IMO, the car turning left has no yield sign or road markings to indicate they should stop. The car turning right is crossing traffic. The car turning left has right of way.

colm_mcm

Treat as an invisible mini roundabout in terms of right of way.
In practice though, just close your eyes and hope for the best.

flazio

A car turning left will have a car coming from their right. Rules of the road state cars coming from your right have the right of way.

Black_Knight

colm_mcm wrote: »

Treat as an invisible mini roundabout in terms of right of way.

If I was to treat it like that, I could turn right when traffic is coming straight at me. :eek: :rolleyes:

Black_Knight

flazio wrote: »

A car turning left will have a car coming from their right. Rules of the road state cars coming from your right have the right of way.

Would the car not be coming from in front of them? 1 facing south, 1 facing north. Remove the meaningless triangle island thing and your logic makes no sense.... to me at least.

ED E

There are no yields but does the lighting sequence not fill that void? The stop line is before the left filter away. For example a flashing amber has the same implication.

troyzer

Give way to the right. There's a similar junction near me which DOES have a Yield sign.

It's probably an oversight by the council

colm_mcm

Black_Knight wrote: »

If I was to treat it like that, I could turn right when traffic is coming straight at me. :eek: :rolleyes:

Oops. I somehow missed the point of the question and didn’t read the post properly!

Black_Knight

ED E wrote: »

There are no yields but does the lighting sequence not fill that void? The stop line is before the left filter away. For example a flashing amber has the same implication.

Nope, no flashing amber. Just a green light. There's only 1 stop line at the top of the pic (the other lines are pedestrian crossing lines).

troyzer wrote: »

Give way to the right. There's a similar junction near me which DOES have a Yield sign.

It's probably an oversight by the council

Again, I dont see them as coming from my right, they're in front of me. The junction doesn't have a yield/stop/filter. Remove the traffic light island thing and now what? Do you say I still yield to traffic coming towards me/crossing over to my side of the road?

If this junction had a yield sign there'd be no question about it, but it doesn't.

Black_Knight

flazio wrote: »

A car turning left will have a car coming from their right. Rules of the road state cars coming from your right have the right of way.

So in this scenario the red car yields? Bananas

ohnonotgmail

Black_Knight wrote: »

So in this scenario the red car yields? Bananas

but that is a different scenario. the addition of traffic islands changes it. I dont think the absence of yield signs change anything. If a car is turning left from the north junction they must yield to any traffic approaching from their right, yield sign or not.

Black_Knight

Difference scenario sure, but I take the corner the same way. Yet all of a sudden when the little island is there, the green car is now on my right? They're as "on my right" as eachother at both junctions.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but that is a different scenario. the addition of traffic islands changes it. I dont think the absence of yield signs change anything. If a car is turning left from the north junction they must yield to any traffic approaching from their right, yield sign or not.

That's where my ambiguity lies. Do we assume it changes it, or does it actually change it? Is there something the rules of the road that says "little islands mean you should yield to traffic" ?
Photoshop out the little islands and what's the difference between those junctions?

coylemj

Black_Knight wrote: »

In the image below, lights go green for traffic going north and south. A car travelling south is making a left turn to travel east. A car travelling north is making a right turn to travel east also.

There is huge confusion over this scenario because people insist on quoting the rule that you must give way to traffic coming from the right which does not apply in this situation.

If two cars coming from opposite directions are turning into the same road, the car turning left has the right of way.

It's in the Rules of the Road.....

If you plan to turn right at a junction and a vehicle from the opposite direction wants to turn into the same road, the vehicle that is turning left has right of way. If yours is the vehicle turning right, you must wait for the other vehicle to turn first.

See p.122 of the current version...

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Learner-Drivers/Safe-Driving1/Rules-of-the-Road/

Charles Babbage

The traffic island effectively creates two junctions. Right turning traffic is now on the main road before the traffic turning to the left of the island and so the give way to the right rule applies.

ohnonotgmail

Charles Babbage wrote: »

The traffic island effectively creates two junctions. Right turning traffic is now on the main road before the traffic turning to the left of the island and so the give way to the right rule applies.

that would be my understanding as well.

markpb

coylemj wrote: »

There is huge confusion over this scenario because people insist on quoting the rule that you must give way to traffic coming from the right which does not apply in this situation.

If two cars coming from opposite directions are turning into the same road, the car turning left has the right of way.

In most cases where there's an island to the right of the turning left lane, there's also a yield/stop line for traffic turning left which, in my mind, means they lose the automatic priority.

Black_Knight

markpb wrote: »

In most cases where there's an island to the right of the turning left lane, there's also a yield/stop line for traffic turning left which, in my mind, means they lose the automatic priority.

So my point is that if in some cases there is a sign, and some cases there is not, how can both having and not having a sign mean the same thing? Having signs at some junctions and not at other junctions (of the exact same setup) implies there's an actual difference in how the junctions are managed... or it's just a lazy council. :rolleyes:

wiz569

coylemj wrote: »

If two cars coming from opposite directions are turning into the same road, the car turning left has the right of way.

It's in the Rules of the Road.....

If you plan to turn right at a junction and a vehicle from the opposite direction wants to turn into the same road, the vehicle that is turning left has right of way. If yours is the vehicle turning right, you must wait for the other vehicle to turn first.

The car turning left in that scenario is on the right of the car turning right and therefore has right of way? At least that would be my understanding of it.

Del2005

Black_Knight wrote: »

So my point is that if in some cases there is a sign, and some cases there is not, how can both having and not having a sign mean the same thing? Having signs at some junctions and not at other junctions (of the exact same setup) implies there's an actual difference in how the junctions are managed... or it's just a lazy council. :rolleyes:

The signs don't matter its the junction layout that does. The traffic Islands introduce extra junctions. So traffic going straight ahead stays on the main road and will have priority over traffic. If you take the slip by the island you are now at a different junction from the straight ahead so you have to give way to traffic from your right.

dexter_morgan

The triangle island effectively creates a separate road. This smaller road has to give way to traffic on the bigger road.

Black_Knight

Del2005 wrote: »

The signs don't matter its the junction layout that does. The traffic Islands introduce extra junctions. So traffic going straight ahead stays on the main road and will have priority over traffic. If you take the slip by the island you are now at a different junction from the straight ahead so you have to give way to traffic from your right.

Then why have some junctions got signs/markings/filters and some don't?

Not trying to be smart here, but is there something in the rules of the road that outlines this?

TheChizler

That junction and the one down Vicars Road before it always cause people trouble on their driving tests. The lanes going left are effectively slip roads onto a main road, and you always give way when you're going past them. Someone turning right has right of way over someone turning left when separated by a triangle, unlike the situation in post 11.

They make turning right very easy when used correctly by the oncoming left-turning traffic.

coylemj

wiz569 wrote: »

The car turning left in that scenario is on the right of the car turning right and therefore has right of way? At least that would be my understanding of it.

This is why a lot of people don't get this rule.

When people refer to 'giving way to a car coming from your right', they are mistakenly including the guy whom you meet at an unsigned crossroads who has come from the opposite direction and who is turning right as you are turning left.

If both of you attempt to turn at the same time, you will see him coming towards you on your your right but that is not the situation envisaged in the rule about giving way to traffic coming from your right. While it may make sense to stop and let him go, he does not have the right of way, you do.

1. You arrive at an unsigned crosssroads, you stop to see who's coming. There is a car coming up from the right-hand side i.e. travelling at 90 degrees to you, you must give way to him.

2. There is a car coming from the opposite direction, he signals that he is turning right, you intend turning left. You have the right of way, he must give way to you.

wiz569

coylemj wrote: »

This is why a lot of people don't get this rule.

When people refer to 'giving way to a car coming from your right', they are mistakenly including the guy whom you meet at an unsigned crossroads who has come from the opposite direction and who is turning right as you are turning left.

I'm not mistakenly including him, in that case I'm using my common sense and also aware of the fact if I did turn first he may in fact have indicated incorrectly and decide to continue straight on, so by affording him right of way I can hopefully avoid any incident.

Del2005

Black_Knight wrote: »

Then why have some junctions got signs/markings/filters and some don't?

Not trying to be smart here, but is there something in the rules of the road that outlines this?

Because our councilors and other civil/public servants aren't accountable to anyone.

Page 72 of the ROTR has the lines that are painted on the roads. At each of the island junctions in the OP there are continuous wide solid lines which indicate a stop, if it was Yield they'd be hatched. So on that junction not only do you have to give way to traffic you have to stop at the line and then give way.

http://www.rotr.ie/Rules_of_the_road.pdf

TheChizler

Those are lines for the traffic lights and pedestrian crossing not stop lines.

Del2005

TheChizler wrote: »

Those are lines for the traffic lines and pedestrian crossing not stop lines.

There's a stop line before the pedestrian crossing.

TheChizler

Del2005 wrote: »

There's a stop line before the pedestrian crossing.

It's the stop line for the traffic light. It doesn't mean you have to stop when you come to it when the light is green.

Black_Knight

TheChizler wrote: »

That junction and the one down Vicars Road before it always cause people trouble on their driving tests. The lanes going left are effectively slip roads onto a main road, and you always give way when you're going past them. Someone turning right has right of way over someone turning left when separated by a triangle, unlike the situation in post 11.

They make turning right very easy when used correctly by the oncoming left-turning traffic.

I can only imagine is causes awful trouble with driving tests. Kinda hammers home the point that they're not at all clear.

Someone turning right has right of way over someone turning left when separated by a triangle

Is that an actual rule or your own interpretation of how these junctions should operate.... or both

TheChizler

Black_Knight wrote: »

Is that an actual rule or your own interpretation of how these junctions should operate.... or both

Well it's a rule by virtue of the road to the left of the triangle being a seperate junction to the main crossroads as others have posted.

Charles Babbage

Black_Knight wrote: »

Then why have some junctions got signs/markings/filters and some don't?

Plenty of junctions do not have signs, I have a T junction in my estate.

The sign might change the general rule, but without it the general rules apply.


An example of this in the Rules of the Road would indeed be helpful.

Peatys

Black_Knight wrote: »

Nope, no flashing amber. Just a green light. There's only 1 stop line at the top of the pic (the other lines are pedestrian crossing lines).



Again, I dont see them as coming from my right, they're in front of me. The junction doesn't have a yield/stop/filter. Remove the traffic light island thing and now what? Do you say I still yield to traffic coming towards me/crossing over to my side of the road?

If this junction had a yield sign there'd be no question about it, but it doesn't.

That's the idea of the triangle. You've to stop at that and look to your right and see if any traffic is coming. Doesn't matter if they're going straight East West or turning North to East, they're coming from your right.

TheChizler

Peatys wrote: »

That's the idea of the triangle. You've to stop at that and look to your right and see if any traffic is coming. Doesn't matter if they're going straight East West or turning North to East, they're coming from your right.

And in this case they should only be turning from North to East (or rotate depending on where you're coming from) as they'd be breaking the lights otherwise.

Most people manage to treat this junction the same way (the correct way in my view). Your visibility is generally excellent, and if you're turning left you know someone turning right will be blocked if the person behind you is going straight on, otherwise wait for them.

CrankyHaus

OP what is the location of the junction? I wouldn't mind checking it out on streetview.

TheChizler

Junction of Vicars Road and Togher Road in Cork.

Under His Eye

That is a signal controlled junction.

Black_Knight

Under His Eye wrote: »

That is a signal controlled junction.

Yes it is. Doesn't help though. At best the lights for those traveling from the south road will stay green when the lights for those travelling from the north road go red.

Black_Knight

CrankyHaus wrote: »

OP what is the location of the junction? I wouldn't mind checking it out on streetview.

TheChizler wrote: »

Junction of Vicars Road and Togher Road in Cork.

https://goo.gl/maps/57MgAcibt3H2

markpb

Black_Knight wrote: »

https://goo.gl/maps/57MgAcibt3H2

That is a woefully designed junction! There are stop lines associated with the traffic lights but no stop/yield lines or signs once you go past that (i.e. on the left-turning lane). The traffic light to the right of the left-turning lane. Both of these would give me the impression that left-turning traffic keeps it's priority and the islands are just there to slow you down. Initially I thought they were refuge for pedestrians but the pedestrian lights/crossing doesn't go near them.

Some clown had a great day dreaming this stuff up!

TheChizler

It's really not that complicated and the junction works really well once you get past the initial confusion.

markpb

TheChizler wrote: »

It's really not that complicated and the junction works really well once you get past the initial confusion.

Junctions shouldn't cause confusion. We have road standards for a reason.

TheChizler

markpb wrote: »

Junctions shouldn't cause confusion. We have road standards for a reason.

It does follow a standard, the confusion is caused by people not paying attention to the layout. Same as any new junction type that people don't come across regularly.

markpb

TheChizler wrote: »

It does follow a standard, the confusion is caused by people not paying attention to the layout. Same as any new junction type that people don't come across regularly.

Haven't you just contradicted yourself there? It's either a standard or something people don't don't come across regularly, it can't truly be both.

TheChizler

I mean a standard set out by law. If you break it down into its individual components the ROTR/Act tells you what you should do.