Changes in the GAA - super thread

robbiezero

kilns wrote: »

From the players used in the All Ireland final of 2013 (6 years ago) the following 17 players are still in the squad

Cluxton
McMahon
OCarroll
Cooper
McCarthy
McCaffrey
McAuley
OSullivan
Kilkenny
Connolly
Mannion
Andrews
Brogan
OGara
Daly
Rock
McMenamon

I think they are still reliant on more than Cluxton out of this group no?

None of them that if they were without, they wouldn't still win the AI. McCaffrey took a year out seamlessly. Can afford to lose Connolly one of the best footballers in the country this decade.
No one that they can't or won't replace in the coming years.

Not using the Brogans, Andrews, McMenamon, O'Carroll, Brennan, Connolly and still being utterly dominant would highlight to me that the Dubs are going nowhere, and unless another team can get up to their mark they could win the next 5 All-Irelands. They only need to add 1 or 2 players a year to keep the team refreshed and from the look of the u20s, that should be no problem.

kilns

robbiezero wrote: »

None of them that if they were without, they wouldn't still win the AI. McCaffrey took a year out seamlessly. Can afford to lose Connolly one of the best footballers in the country this decade.
No one that they can't or won't replace in the coming years.

Not using the Brogans, Andrews, McMenamon, O'Carroll, Brennan, Connolly and still being utterly dominant would highlight to me that the Dubs are going nowhere, and unless another team can get up to their mark they could win the next 5 All-Irelands. They only need to add 1 or 2 players a year to keep the team refreshed and from the look of the u20s, that should be no problem.

Ha ha fair enough so Cluxton, McMahon, Cooper, McCarthy, McAuley, OSullivan, Mannion, Kilkenny and Rock (not to mention McCaffrey, OCarroll and Connolly, Daly, OGara, Brogan) are not the core of the squad who all played in 2013 and have been around the squad a long time? Yes of course additional players will come and go, due to population size but Dublin have been blessed with a great core group who have sustained this success just like Tyrone and Kerry of the 00s had this core, eventually they will retire but as I have always said Dublin will always remain at the very top table due to weight of numbers and great management but they will not be as dominant as they have been far from it.

robbiezero

kilns wrote: »

Ha ha fair enough so Cluxton, McMahon, Cooper, McCarthy, McAuley, OSullivan, Mannion, Kilkenny and Rock (not to mention McCaffrey, OCarroll and Connolly, Daly, OGara, Brogan) are not the core of the squad who all played in 2013 and have been around the squad a long time? Yes of course additional players will come and go, due to population size but Dublin have been blessed with a great core group who have sustained this success just like Tyrone and Kerry of the 00s had this core, eventually they will retire but as I have always said Dublin will always remain at the very top table due to weight of numbers and great management but they will not be as dominant as they have been far from it.

Why not? Rather than the dominance waning, last year was their most dominant AI win of the decade. There is no sign whatsoever that this Dublin side is on the downward slide unless the 5 in a row destroys their hunger.

You said the current team are completely reliant on the 2011 and 2013 crop. I said they weren't, those of them that have gone past it have been seamlessly replaced. The Brogans, Connolly, Flynn and O'Carroll would have been near enough the best 5 outfield players of that era. None of them needed a jot by the current side.
Fenton, Howard, O'Callaghan, Scully, Small etc all forming the new core of the next generation of this team.

kilns

robbiezero wrote: »

[/B]

Why not? Rather than the dominance waning, last year was their most dominant AI win of the decade. There is no sign whatsoever that this Dublin side is on the downward slide unless the 5 in a row destroys their hunger.

You said the current team are completely reliant on the 2011 and 2013 crop. I said they weren't, those of them that have gone past it have been seamlessly replaced. The Brogans, Connolly, Flynn and O'Carroll would have been near enough the best 5 outfield players of that era. None of them needed a jot by the current side.
Fenton, Howard, O'Callaghan, Scully, Small etc all forming the new core of the next generation of this team.

The partial reason for their dominance was frankly speaking the lack of real competition, Kerry were rebuilding and so too were Tyrone. Who most years you would consider real contenders. Then nobody really stood out apart from Mayo who did push them but ultimately had their own limitations.

Cluxton is probably the most important player in the history of the GAA and his loss will be huge and he will not be around forever. Guys like Cooper, O Sullivan and McMahon have been the bedrock of the defence for years now but nobody has really forced their way into the squad in that area of the field in the last 2/3 years apart from Murchan. Thats where I see the weakness coming being honest. Then add on to that Kerry, who have won the last 5 Minors, if they are not capable of assembling a team out of those teams who cannot be a dominant force also questions would have to be asked but of all counties I have no doubts they will. Again as I said Dublin will always be there but not on the scale of the last 6 years

robbiezero

kilns wrote: »

The partial reason for their dominance was frankly speaking the lack of real competition, Kerry were rebuilding and so too were Tyrone. Who most years you would consider real contenders. Then nobody really stood out apart from Mayo who did push them but ultimately had their own limitations.

Cluxton is probably the most important player in the history of the GAA and his loss will be huge and he will not be around forever. Guys like Cooper, O Sullivan and McMahon have been the bedrock of the defence for years now but nobody has really forced their way into the squad in that area of the field in the last 2/3 years apart from Murchan. Thats where I see the weakness coming being honest. Then add on to that Kerry, who have won the last 5 Minors, if they are not capable of assembling a team out of those teams who cannot be a dominant force also questions would have to be asked but of all counties I have no doubts they will. Again as I said Dublin will always be there but not on the scale of the last 6 years

Agreed. Was surprised to see Cian O'Sullivan at the fulcrum of the defence again this year. While he had to play a different role for Crokes and mark a man at corner back, I thought he was very poor, probably Crokes poorest defender.
He might still have the head for the sweeper role for Dublin, but I think as Cork showed that he can be got at if teams push up on him and I'd say Kerrigans display has given the Dubs backroom team something to think about in that regard.

kilns

robbiezero wrote: »

Agreed. Was surprised to see Cian O'Sullivan at the fulcrum of the defence again this year. While he had to play a different role for Crokes and mark a man at corner back, I thought he was very poor, probably Crokes poorest defender.
He might still have the head for the sweeper role for Dublin, but I think as Cork showed that he can be got at if teams push up on him and I'd say Kerrigans display has given the Dubs backroom team something to think about in that regard.

He could come under pressure as injuries could be catching up with him. Connolly played a few games at centre back for Vinnies who knows

doc_17

One change that needs to be made immediately is that ridiculous moustache Cian o’Sullivan is sporting. Is it some sort of Peaky Blinders thing? A dare? Is this widespread in the capital?

harpsman

kilns wrote: »

So my question is what would rectify the situation for you?

Ok you make silly arguments about Bertie tired of turning up watching them lose etc etc, so I will skip by that and I presume you dont live in Dublin. You do know in the 90s the GAA was dying in Dublin, if nothing was done it would be a tiny minority sport in the city now. The Dublin county board knew this and had to act and so they put forward the strategic plan but yes they needed money and yes they got it and was it fair to other counties, probably not no, but it was needed and I am sure as much as guys like you hate Dublin, the GAA needs Dublin and something dramatic needed to be done. It has been a huge success with huge increases in participation in children, the success of the football team has helped too to increase the interest in the game. Dublin is a huge battleground for hearts and minds with so many other groups and interests vying for their attention too, yes rural Ireland would have other sports in their town but not on the same scale.

Dublin has been a success and it is only a pity it has not been able to be implemented throughout the country but there are different needs in different counties and different politics too in different counties - for example it has to be asked why did two big Kildare clubs in big towns refuse an extra GDO coach each to be assigned specifically to their club? and there will always be an imbalance (which was always there) due to population.

As I said the 2018, 2017 and 2016 figures show a reallignment of the balance but now the other urban centres need to be addressed firstly I think.

But I will revert to my question to you, what in your mind could the GAA do now to rectify it for you?

Simple- the 4 counties in the greater Dublin metropolitan area should not be fielding a combined team.

At the very least, the 4 counties should field 2 teams

Jaden

doc_17 wrote: »

One change that needs to be made immediately is that ridiculous moustache Cian o’Sullivan is sporting. Is it some sort of Peaky Blinders thing? A dare? Is this widespread in the capital?

If you make it to Croker this year, we'll stamp your day pass to the pale, and you can have a look around for yourself.

AFAIK the Soup-strainer is a hangover from his audition for the lead role in Bohemian Rhapsody.

ArmaniJeanss

harpsman wrote: »

Simple- the 4 counties in the greater Dublin metropolitan area should not be fielding a combined team.

At the very least, the 4 counties should field 2 teams

Some in the thread (not you) seem to have suggested using the 4 administrative/council areas. This seems inherently un-stable, as presumably the government can tweak them at a whim for financial/resource reasons.

And on a technical note I think it would mean 17 contenders from Northern Ireland instead of the current 6, as the UK government pretty much abandoned the county system decades ago.

But hell, who wouldn't love a longer Ulster Football Championship?

Fun thread, carry on.

Coillte_Bhoy

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

It’s clear that Congress is the route to take to change the crazy situation that has developed.

Delegates need to get their house in order pre congress to be effective on this.

What exactly does this mean?

salmocab

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Some in the thread (not you) seem to have suggested using the 4 administrative/council areas. This seems inherently un-stable, as presumably the government can tweak them at a whim for financial/resource reasons.

And on a technical note I think it would mean 17 contenders from Northern Ireland instead of the current 6, as the UK government pretty much abandoned the county system decades ago.

But hell, who wouldn't love a longer Ulster Football Championship?

Fun thread, carry on.

He only added the 4 counties should field two teams so people couldn’t counter with cork and Galway having two councils.

Past30Now

harpsman wrote: »

Simple- the 4 counties in the greater Dublin metropolitan area should not be fielding a combined team.

At the very least, the 4 counties should field 2 teams

It's comments like this that get my back up. If you think Dublin should be split in two, say it. It may an element of a decent solution to fixing the championship.

Don't ascribe county status to four administrative areas that, as said above, could be changed by the whim of the government, a la Limerick or Tipperary. We all went to primary school and were able to list the 32 counties of Ireland.

kilns

harpsman wrote: »

Simple- the 4 counties in the greater Dublin metropolitan area should not be fielding a combined team.

At the very least, the 4 counties should field 2 teams

At last a solution and not a moan about funding and yes I agree, I think the population advantage is too big and it needs to happen, some traditionlists even from outside Dublin would not like it but for the greater good I think it should happen. My only question would it apply to all codes and the club scene, in that case Hurling will suffer and also the club scene will suffer too as Dublin is a small county and easy to navigate so distance travelled is not an issue

hardCopy

Past30Now wrote: »

harpsman wrote: »

Simple- the 4 counties in the greater Dublin metropolitan area should not be fielding a combined team.

At the very least, the 4 counties should field 2 teams

It's comments like this that get my back up. If you think Dublin should be split in two, say it. It may an element of a decent solution to fixing the championship.

Don't ascribe county status to four administrative areas that, as said above, could be changed by the whim of the government, a la Limerick or Tipperary. We all went to primary school and were able to list the 32 counties of Ireland.

When the British government moved Ballaghadereen from Mayo to Roscommon the GAA ignored it, why would an administrative reorganisation of Dublin's councils be any more relevant?

blinding

hardCopy wrote: »

When the British government moved Ballaghadereen from Mayo to Roscommon the GAA ignored it, why would an administrative reorganisation of Dublin's councils be any more relevant?

The British were never as powerful in Ireland as the GAA is now;)

Fans should stop wasting their money on inter county football until the Dublin Debacle is De-Horned !

kilns

blinding wrote: »

The British were never as powerful in Ireland as the GAA is now;)

Fans should stop wasting their money on inter county football until the Dublin Debacle is De-Horned !

When do you declare it "de-horned"?

ToBeFrank123

kilns wrote: »

When do you declare it "de-horned"?

When 5 years have passed where the rest of the country have the same GDO ratio per club as Dublin. And when the same focus has been put on other counties such as Cork that was put on Dublin. And on urban areas where GAA is as weak as it allegedly was (it wasn't) in Dublin in the 1990s, the decade where Dublin won 4 in a row Leinsters, an AI and competed in 3 AI finals.

And when other Leinster counties can compete and win Leinster titles.

Simple really. A long term balanced playing field where everyone can agree that the sport is mostly fair and balanced and one county doesn't compete with a huge asterix beside its name.

blinding

kilns wrote: »

When do you declare it "de-horned"?

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

When 5 years have passed where the rest of the country have the same GDO ratio per club as Dublin. And when the same focus has been put on other counties such as Cork that was put on Dublin. And on urban areas where GAA is as weak as it allegedly was (it wasn't) in Dublin in the 1990s, the decade where Dublin won 4 in a row Leinsters, an AI and competed in 3 AI finals.

And when other Leinster counties can compete and win Leinster titles.

Simple really. A long term balanced playing field where everyone can agree that the sport is mostly fair and balanced and one county doesn't compete with a huge asterix beside its name.

I couldn’t have said it better . Great Post .

kilns

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

When 5 years have passed where the rest of the country have the same GDO ratio per club as Dublin. And when the same focus has been put on other counties such as Cork that was put on Dublin. And on urban areas where GAA is as weak as it allegedly was (it wasn't) in Dublin in the 1990s, the decade where Dublin won 4 in a row Leinsters, an AI and competed in 3 AI finals.

And when other Leinster counties can compete and win Leinster titles.

Simple really. A long term balanced playing field where everyone can agree that the sport is mostly fair and balanced and one county doesn't compete with a huge asterix beside its name.

GDO ratio per club is silly ratio to have, you could have a small rural club with with about 50 kids as opposed to a urban club with 500 kids and lets put one GDO per club, how about a ratio of GDO per child is a bit more logical?

OK great so we are 2 years into the even distribution of Game development funding, only 3 to go for you.

For a man who knows nothing about grass roots Dublin GAA you seem very certain there was no problem in 1990s at club and grassroots level, quoting senior team achievements is frankly embarrassing for you.

Your metrics are based on success so at every level up to under 20 Leinster counties are more than competing and winning Leinster titles, they need to translate this success to adult level now and good management will help that. I guess that applies to Munster too consider Kerry win everything at under 20 and senior level in Munster, do we need to redress that imbalance too?

The GAA as we know it will never be a long termed balance field as counties will have bigger populations than others and therefore bigger picks. Based on that what should happen to Mayo considering they have double the population of Roscommon? Should we split Mayo in two so that they are on a level playing field with Roscommon?

ToBeFrank123

kilns wrote: »

GDO ratio per club is silly ratio to have, you could have a small rural club with with about 50 kids as opposed to a urban club with 500 kids and lets put one GDO per club, how about a ratio of GDO per child is a bit more logical?

Meh, we know there is significant massaging of the numbers to claim more funding in Dublin. You said earlier there are 4.5 times more children in Dublin. We also know a hell of a lot of those have no interest in the GAA and never will, eg most non nationals. Despite the best efforts in Dublin, there just isn't the interest there.

I'd be more in favour of GDO ratio per registered child at GAA clubs. The GAA in Dublin have wasted a significant amount of money trying to get some kids playing who have little long term interest in the sport. But those who join a club do have an interest.

OK great so we are 2 years into the even distribution of Game development funding, only 3 to go for you.

GAA were embarrassed into attempting to even up the playing field after the financial doping revelations. But its a start at least.

For a man who knows nothing about grass roots Dublin GAA you seem very certain there was no problem in 1990s at club and grassroots level, quoting senior team achievements is frankly embarrassing for you.

Dublin won 8 Leinster Minor titles between 1983 and 2003. No sign of weakness there either. You're talking nonsense again.

Your metrics are based on success so at every level up to under 20 Leinster counties are more than competing and winning Leinster titles, they need to translate this success to adult level now and good management will help that.

Discussed ad nauseum before but you didn't like the answer. Kerry have terrific minor footballers over the last few years. There is no guarantee that can be translated into senior or even u20 level. In fact despite winning 5 minor AIs in a row, Kerry's last u21 AI was in 2008. Dublin meanwhile have been relatively weak at minor level in recent years yet have won 5 of their 6 U20 AIs in the last 10 years. Draw your own conclusions.

The GAA as we know it will never be a long termed balance field as counties will have bigger populations than others and therefore bigger picks. Based on that what should happen to Mayo considering they have double the population of Roscommon? Should we split Mayo in two so that they are on a level playing field with Roscommon?

The GAA managed just fine up to about 10 years ago with the imbalances of population. Teams came and went, including Dublin. No-one ever felt the need to single out and artificially help one county in particular with a significant increase in funding.

kilns

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Meh, we know there is significant massaging of the numbers to claim more funding in Dublin. You said earlier there are 4.5 times more children in Dublin. We also know a hell of a lot of those have no interest in the GAA and never will, eg most non nationals. Despite the best efforts in Dublin, there just isn't the interest there.

I'd be more in favour of GDO ratio per registered child at GAA clubs. The GAA in Dublin have wasted a significant amount of money trying to get some kids playing who have little long term interest in the sport. But those who join a club do have an interest.



GAA were embarrassed into attempting to even up the playing field after the financial doping revelations. But its a start at least.



Dublin won 8 Leinster Minor titles between 1983 and 2003. No sign of weakness there either. You're talking nonsense again.


Discussed ad nauseum before but you didn't like the answer. Kerry have terrific minor footballers over the last few years. There is no guarantee that can be translated into senior or even u20 level. In fact despite winning 5 minor AIs in a row, Kerry's last u21 AI was in 2008. Dublin meanwhile have been relatively weak at minor level in recent years yet have won 5 of their 6 U20 AIs in the last 10 years. Draw your own conclusions.



The GAA managed just fine up to about 10 years ago with the imbalances of population. Teams came and went, including Dublin. No-one ever felt the need to single out and artificially help one county in particular with a significant increase in funding.

So again you decide to just make up stuff by saying we all know the figures are massaged, any proof?

The games development is aimed at kids who currently play and those who dont and dont have an interest, why bother promote anything when you dont want to increase your numbers in anything that is just plain stupid, how do you quantitfy if a kid has an interest or not if you dont try and reach them or do you just pick schools you know where there will be interest and schools where you dont think there will be, that is plain ignorant and thank god someone like you is not in games development. You bang out this non national children thing again I see and I have already answered you with facts on this that 4% of the children population of Dublin is made up of non nationals and I can assure you there are a good number of non nationals playing under age with clubs.

So your metric is based on success at inter county level, your ignorance of grass roots in Dublin means you cannot make an argument on this particular topic so you should stop, I would not dare to comment on Mayo grass roots as I dont know anything about what is happening there

Again, for the 100th time, funding was intended to make Dublin successful it was to increase participation and save the organisation in the city. Success has been a byproduct of fantastic core group of players and one of the best managers ever

And who is to say this Dublin team will not come and go too nobody can predict the future and going by your underage success metric there is indication that they may decline too considering 17 of the players who played in the All ireland final of 2013 are still involved in the squad that is a significant number of players passing through in one go

ToBeFrank123

kilns wrote: »

So again you decide to just make up stuff by saying we all know the figures are massaged, any proof?

The games development is aimed at kids who currently play and those who dont and dont have an interest, why bother promote anything when you dont want to increase your numbers in anything that is just plain stupid, how do you quantitfy if a kid has an interest or not if you dont try and reach them or do you just pick schools you know where there will be interest and schools where you dont think there will be, that is plain ignorant and thank god someone like you is not in games development. You bang out this non national children thing again I see and I have already answered you with facts on this that 4% of the children population of Dublin is made up of non nationals and I can assure you there are a good number of non nationals playing under age with clubs.

So your metric is based on success at inter county level, your ignorance of grass roots in Dublin means you cannot make an argument on this particular topic so you should stop, I would not dare to comment on Mayo grass roots as I dont know anything about what is happening there

Again, for the 100th time, funding was intended to make Dublin successful it was to increase participation and save the organisation in the city. Success has been a byproduct of fantastic core group of players and one of the best managers ever

And who is to say this Dublin team will not come and go too nobody can predict the future and going by your underage success metric there is indication that they may decline too considering 17 of the players who played in the All ireland final of 2013 are still involved in the squad that is a significant number of players passing through in one go

As an example of the fallacy of your increasing participation argument, there is pitiful representation of non nationals at all IC levels in Dublin and only token representation at lower levels.

Can you name me one non national who has played IC at any level in Dublin the last 10 years?

They aren't participating seriously.

You've p*ssed away money trying to get the masses involved. But only an elite benefitted and continue to benefit. And you've all but finished interest in the Leinster Championship as another disastrous byproduct.

I'm still laughing at you saying Dublin GAA was dying in the 1990s, when it was actually one of their most successful decades at senior and minor.

They also went on to win their first U21 AI in 2003. When did that team grow up? In the 1990s.

beggars_bush

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

As an example of the fallacy of your increasing participation argument, there is pitiful representation of non nationals at all IC levels in Dublin and only token representation at lower levels.

Can you name me one non national who has played IC at any level in Dublin the last 10 years?

They aren't participating seriously.

You've p*ssed away money trying to get the masses involved. But only an elite benefitted and continue to benefit. And you've all but finished interest in the Leinster Championship as another disastrous byproduct.

I'm still laughing at you saying Dublin GAA was dying in the 1990s, when it was actually one of their most successful decades at senior and minor.

They also went on to win their first U21 AI in 2003. When did that team grow up? In the 1990s.

Maybe we're just all being 'mean spirited' towards Dublin

Or have I mis quoted John Horan?

Fann Linn

beggars_bush wrote: »

Maybe we're just all being 'mean spirited' towards Dublin

Or have I mis quoted John Horan?

I wouldn't worry about it.
I'm sure the Dublin County board, Jim Gavin and the players have more important things to be worrying about this time of year than a thread on boards.

kilns

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

As an example of the fallacy of your increasing participation argument, there is pitiful representation of non nationals at all IC levels in Dublin and only token representation at lower levels.

Can you name me one non national who has played IC at any level in Dublin the last 10 years?

They aren't participating seriously.

You've p*ssed away money trying to get the masses involved. But only an elite benefitted and continue to benefit. And you've all but finished interest in the Leinster Championship as another disastrous byproduct.

I'm still laughing at you saying Dublin GAA was dying in the 1990s, when it was actually one of their most successful decades at senior and minor.

They also went on to win their first U21 AI in 2003. When did that team grow up? In the 1990s.

Ok I am only going to answer one thing which I have outlined before a few times to you. Out of the under 18 population in Dublin 4% of that are non nationals. So it’s a tiny number and only 25 players can get on a county minor squad. So the chances of it happening are very slim and can you tell us here that you know for a fact that no non nationals play football or hurling with clubs in Dublin no you can’t because you have already outlined your ignorance and lack of knowledge of grass roots in Dublin do please stop commenting on it as you have no clue and no evidence to back up your claims.

The discussion on this topic with you is over with you as far as I am concerned as you not even willing to admit you have no idea of grass roots club Dublin GAA and based your arguments off the senior and minor teams which are a tiny tiny percentage of the make up of any GAA county. By the way as you gauge success and health of a whole county based on their county sides as you state the 90s was a very successful decade 2 Leinster minor football titles would not be deemed a golden period considering Meath and Laois both won 3 in the 90s

But anyway discussion over as you can not form a rational argument to be discussed

beggars_bush

Fann Linn wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about it.
I'm sure the Dublin County board, Jim Gavin and the players have more important things to be worrying about this time of year than a thread on boards.

Aye
I doubt they've too many worries playing all those games at home
Its everyone else that it sffects

Fann Linn

beggars_bush wrote: »

Aye
I doubt they've too many worries playing all those games at home
Its everyone else that it sffects

Obviously doesn't affect too many.
They didn't bother changing it when they had the chance.

beggars_bush

Fann Linn wrote: »

Obviously doesn't affect too many.
They didn't bother changing it when they had the chance.

Donegal put in the motion alright

the GAA top brass railed against it to stop any change happening.
The actually predicted cuts to other counties funding due to decreased revenue

The GAA is no longer a democracy as it chases the smell of Euro to fund the likes of the Dublin coaching program

Dots1982

The Donegal motion was boneheaded. It took away revenue while leaving Dublin with 2 home games so keeping them at a advantage to every other team.