Why is it so hard to get a teaching job and why are teachers so underpaid

emilymemily

Are there just too many trained teachers and not enough jobs or is it something else?
I just remember in the 90's and early 2000's a teaching profession was seen as a very respectable job and a financially secure career with potential for progression. Whats changed?

skooterblue2

emilymemily wrote: »

Are there just too many trained teachers and not enough jobs or is it something else?
I just remember in the 90's and early 2000's a teaching profession was seen as a very respectable job and a financially secure career with potential for progression. Whats changed?

In two words .......... "Haddington road". During the recession the government decided to try cut teachers wages. So in a brokered agreement. So what happened the established Teachers kept their pay and benefits while the younger teachers/trainee teacher got burned.

They lost their full time contracts, summer pay, pension got affected. It was a right mess. It lead to a decreased quality of students seeking teaching. Teaching has got a lot harder with family life breakdown and diversity in the class room, discipline in the class room, failed parenting strategies...... I could go on.

On the otherhand younger teachers are running off to the middle east to teach (English, STEM in demand) which leads to a massive drop in qualified teachers as if there wasnt a shortage before particularily physics.

The difference in pay is about Ireland €30k plus pay tax, rent, no chance of a mortgage, health care and car ownership is pricy on a temp contract and no summer pay. The first question at your first interview is what experience do you have?

In the middle east starting pay is €60k no tax, paid accomodation and health care, 40 days paid holiday. how are you supposed to compare the two? The first interview you have they ask how fast can you get out there?

evolving_doors

skooterblue2 wrote: »

In two words .......... "Haddington road". During the recession the government decided to try cut teachers wages. So in a brokered agreement. So what happened the established Teachers kept their pay and benefits while the younger teachers/trainee teacher got burned.

They lost their full time contracts, summer pay, pension got affected. It was a right mess. It lead to a decreased quality of students seeking teaching. Teaching has got a lot harder with family life breakdown and diversity in the class room, discipline in the class room, failed parenting strategies...... I could go on.

On the otherhand younger teachers are running off to the middle east to teach (English, STEM in demand) which leads to a massive drop in qualified teachers as if there wasnt a shortage before particularily physics.

The difference in pay is about Ireland €30k plus pay tax, rent, no chance of a mortgage, health care and car ownership is pricy on a temp contract and no summer pay. The first question at your first interview is what experience do you have?

In the middle east starting pay is €60k no tax, paid accomodation and health care, 40 days paid holiday. how are you supposed to compare the two? The first interview you have they ask how fast can you get out there?

Well not quite brokered in haddington road

taken from another thread...

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

That is simply untrue.
The union and its membership signed up to the Croke Park Agreement, and then, mid Agreement, when the ability to strike was off the table, the Public Accounts Committee as well as FEMPI legislation from Dail floor were brought in and that's where the new pay scales came from.

....

skooterblue2

They are so desperate for science teachers they are advertising automatic entry onto science degrees through doing the equivalent of you doing your Higher Diploma before you enter the course, in the hopes you will take up science teaching. I think it will lower the standard of teaching and lower the standard of students as seen with the 20% pass rate for the Junior Cert.

Corkgirl18

skooterblue2 wrote: »

They are so desperate for science teachers they are advertising automatic entry onto science degrees through doing the equivalent of you doing your Higher Diploma before you enter the course, in the hopes you will take up science teaching. I think it will lower the standard of teaching and lower the standard of students as seen with the 20% pass rate for the Junior Cert.

Wow. Where did you come across this?

Sprinter Sacre

skooterblue2 wrote: »

In two words .......... "Haddington road". During the recession the government decided to try cut teachers wages. So in a brokered agreement. So what happened the established Teachers kept their pay and benefits while the younger teachers/trainee teacher got burned.

They lost their full time contracts, summer pay, pension got affected. It was a right mess. It lead to a decreased quality of students seeking teaching. Teaching has got a lot harder with family life breakdown and diversity in the class room, discipline in the class room, failed parenting strategies...... I could go on.

On the otherhand younger teachers are running off to the middle east to teach (English, STEM in demand) which leads to a massive drop in qualified teachers as if there wasnt a shortage before particularily physics.

The difference in pay is about Ireland €30k plus pay tax, rent, no chance of a mortgage, health care and car ownership is pricy on a temp contract and no summer pay. The first question at your first interview is what experience do you have?

In the middle east starting pay is €60k no tax, paid accomodation and health care, 40 days paid holiday. how are you supposed to compare the two? The first interview you have they ask how fast can you get out there?

Is that 60k no tax thing actually true? From what I have read and seen they pretty much get paid the same as they would here, if not a little less but the no tax, or reduced tax, paid accommodation, travel expenses, health care etc. is the draw for them and makes it worth going as you can save pretty much all of your payslip.

keoclassic

Sprinter Sacre wrote: »

Is that 60k no tax thing actually true? From what I have read and seen they pretty much get paid the same as they would here, if not a little less but the no tax, or reduced tax, paid accommodation, travel expenses, health care etc. is the draw for them and makes it worth going as you can save pretty much all of your payslip.

No thats not true, its actually better pay than in ireland, with the main incentive being that you are not taxed on earnings and rent allowances/flight allowances are included. You can also qualify for a bonus after service periods based on ones contract.

skooterblue2

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

Wow. Where did you come across this?

Maynooth are doing it. Do the first year and you are almost guaranteed entry to the science degree.
http://apps.maynoothuniversity.ie/courses/?TARGET=QUALIFICATION&MODE=VIEW&QUALIFICATION_CODE=SCEDP&SUBJECT_CODE=&OFFERING_CODE=U_HONS_DEGREES

skooterblue2

Sprinter Sacre wrote: »

Is that 60k no tax thing actually true? From what I have read and seen they pretty much get paid the same as they would here, if not a little less but the no tax, or reduced tax, paid accommodation, travel expenses, health care etc. is the draw for them and makes it worth going as you can save pretty much all of your payslip.

https://www.worldteachers.net/job/physics-teacher-aug-2018-middle-east-doha,-qatar-2785.aspx

Benefits and salary package:

Tax-free salary, dependent on experience
Free un-shared fully furnished apartment
Annual flights
Shipping allowance
Health cover

any accomodation here is 12k a year
any health care is 3k a year
Tax is about 6k?
Dont start on the price of transport.
Breaks your heart and us paying sky high taxes and very little return or value for money on it

keoclassic

Its still not 60k a year. If it was, i would have went myself a few years ago.Things that sound too good to be true.......

skooterblue2

keoclassic wrote: »

Its still not 60k a year. If it was, i would have went myself a few years ago.Things that sound too good to be true.......

https://www.gooverseas.com/blog/teaching-in-uae-salary

Well that is the upper end of the market and you only work 20 hours a week so with grinds.......... its not far off it. Loads of young new grad arts students and assistant lecturers were racing out there a few years back. My associate that did it was on pittance part time with a large IT but he loved teaching Engineering. He got his full job as a full time lecturer, a say in what the college spent money on for his department, petrol was cheap and he was buy a muscle car from America after 6 months.

You probably have your job pensionable and full time, mortgage sorted and what not. Others have no hope under current salaries.

TheDriver

It's difficult to say why it's hard to get a teaching job except that everyone is different and it depends on location/experience and other factors.

skooterblue2

TheDriver wrote: »

It's difficult to say why it's hard to get a teaching job except that everyone is different and it depends on location/experience and other factors.

My principal is looking for Geography teacher teaching Adult education. Its not clear why she cant get one is it supply and demand or she just doesnt have the budget for one.

rainbowtrout

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Maynooth are doing it. Do the first year and you are almost guaranteed entry to the science degree.
http://apps.maynoothuniversity.ie/courses/?TARGET=QUALIFICATION&MODE=VIEW&QUALIFICATION_CODE=SCEDP&SUBJECT_CODE=&OFFERING_CODE=U_HONS_DEGREES

skooterblue2 wrote: »

https://www.gooverseas.com/blog/teaching-in-uae-salary

Well that is the upper end of the market and you only work 20 hours a week so with grinds.......... its not far off it.

Jesus you're spouting some ****e.

The degree in Maynooth has existed for years. It was a four year teacher training degree, same structure as many of the other teacher training degrees in other colleges around the country. When the dip went to two years a couple of years ago, the colleges offering teacher training degrees had to change their structure too. So Maynooth still offers the degree as a four year option, and if students want to bail out after four years they can. If they want to stay on and become a teacher they complete the fifth year.

So it's not a free year for anyone or a free for all.


You started out claiming the salary in the middle east was 60k and in your latest post above it's changed to '20 hours teaching plus grinds and you're not far off it'

Those are two different types of employment. If you're going to compare the two jobs, compare like with like. Middle East is a bit of a unique case anyway with the lack of taxation there, you can say the name about nurses and engineers heading out there to work. It would be far more comparable perhaps to compare the earning power of an Irish teacher and a UK teacher, or one in any other EU country for that matter.

And teachers still do get paid for their summer holidays if they have a year long contract.

skooterblue2

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Jesus you're spouting some ****e.

The degree in Maynooth has existed for years. It was a four year teacher training degree, same structure as many of the other teacher training degrees in other colleges around the country. When the dip went to two years a couple of years ago, the colleges offering teacher training degrees had to change their structure too. So Maynooth still offers the degree as a four year option, and if students want to bail out after four years they can. If they want to stay on and become a teacher they complete the fifth year.

So it's not a free year for anyone or a free for all.


You started out claiming the salary in the middle east was 60k and in your latest post above it's changed to '20 hours teaching plus grinds and you're not far off it'

Those are two different types of employment. If you're going to compare the two jobs, compare like with like. Middle East is a bit of a unique case anyway with the lack of taxation there, you can say the name about nurses and engineers heading out there to work. It would be far more comparable perhaps to compare the earning power of an Irish teacher and a UK teacher, or one in any other EU country for that matter.

And teachers still do get paid for their summer holidays if they have a year long contract.

"If", I have heard them complain that, they are being kept on temporary status. The new hires arent covering all the summer months. A few years ago during the recession, they had this "craic" called JobsBridge where newly qualified teachers would work for their experience for the equivalent of "social welfare + €5" a week. Some took it and some teachers refused. If you did your 4 years and were of good standard you deserved a proper job. There is nothing more demoralising than having done your study and working and being paid an excuse of a wage.

The difference between an engineer and teacher is the teacher hasnt had their salary and status being reduced over the last few years. That is the point I am making that they are two very different systems and one is more infinitely more attractive than another for a first day hire.

I never said that Maynooth was unique but it was the one that was being marketed heavily to me and my class mates.

Coming from a disadvantaged background, minority non traditional teaching background it is a much easier access than to compete with 18 year old leaving certs and get 430 points than it is a much easier access route.

Mardy Bum

skooterblue2 wrote: »

They are so desperate for science teachers they are advertising automatic entry onto science degrees through doing the equivalent of you doing your Higher Diploma before you enter the course, in the hopes you will take up science teaching. I think it will lower the standard of teaching and lower the standard of students as seen with the 20% pass rate for the Junior Cert.

Behind the scenes those administering and teaching on B.Ed's in science will gladly admit that those candidates are not learning anywhere near the same material as those doing a science degree and the B.Ed is in fact far inferior.

My unpopular opinion is that B.Ed's for non practical subjects are much inferior.

Corkgirl18

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Behind the scenes those administering and teaching on B.Ed's in science will gladly admit that those candidates are not learning anywhere near the same material as those doing a science degree and the B.Ed is in fact far inferior.

My unpopular opinion is that B.Ed's for non practical subjects are much inferior.

B.Eds are different in each university. Some science B.Eds for example, do the exact same modules 1st - 3rd year as a science degree except for one education module in 2nd and 3rd year.

Postgrad10

Isn't the BEd in Science 5 years?

Corkgirl18

Postgrad10 wrote: »

Isn't the BEd in Science 5 years?

You can do a 4 year concurrent degree

skooterblue2

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Behind the scenes those administering and teaching on B.Ed's in science will gladly admit that those candidates are not learning anywhere near the same material as those doing a science degree and the B.Ed is in fact far inferior.

My unpopular opinion is that B.Ed's for non practical subjects are much inferior.

We are not talking about B Ed, we are talking about BSc. So its not really the same thing. The US Army considers the B Ed its second least desirable degree after Agriculture

myshirt

Talk to your senior colleagues on why it's difficult to get a job. If there's any confusion ask them to look in the mirror.

And on the second part, teachers are overpaid (way overpaid) rather than underpaid, but you are right it is a very humble profession to pursue and I commend anyone doing it, but the wages need to drop and the pension liability needs to be tackled. There's also a lot of good things we could be getting teachers to do to elongate the day, and get value from them, including during the summer, but the first phase has to be to lower the wage bill for the incumbents and get the young teachers into jobs.

Atoms for Peace

Young teachers should start a new union, the old guard sold them out to maintain their generous pensions.

evolving_doors

skooterblue2 wrote: »

We are not talking about B Ed, we are talking about BSc. So its not really the same thing. The US Army considers the B Ed its second least desirable degree after Agriculture

I think that's more to do with the US Army profiling system than the content or quality of the BEd.

screamer

It's a lifestyle career choice, highly desirable, with shorter working hours and longer paid holidays. Highly desirable careers generally pay less, as there is no shortage of willing workers. That's about it really.

evolving_doors

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Young teachers should start a new union, the old guard sold them out to maintain their generous pensions.

That's one I've never heard before.
I'm a little shocked to hear this TBH.
What's the reasoning behind that?

skooterblue2

evolving_doors wrote: »

I think that's more to do with the US Army profiling system than the content or quality of the BEd.

No it has to do with the amount of mental effort put into attaining an Educational degree.

c.p.w.g.w

skooterblue2 wrote: »

In two words .......... "Haddington road". During the recession the government decided to try cut teachers wages. So in a brokered agreement. So what happened the established Teachers kept their pay and benefits while the younger teachers/trainee teacher got burned.

They lost their full time contracts, summer pay, pension got affected. It was a right mess. It lead to a decreased quality of students seeking teaching. Teaching has got a lot harder with family life breakdown and diversity in the class room, discipline in the class room, failed parenting strategies...... I could go on.

The difference in pay is about Ireland €30k plus pay tax, rent, no chance of a mortgage, health care and car ownership?

Salary of 30k and no change of a mortgage...I earn 26k and got a mortgage last year

evolving_doors

skooterblue2 wrote: »

No it has to do with the amount of mental effort put into attaining an Educational degree.

You know so many things skooterblue2, you must have had great teachers.

evolving_doors

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Salary of 30k and no change of a mortgage...I earn 26k and got a mortgage last year

3.5x26 is about 100k.
Where did you get a gaffe for that amt?

rainbowtrout

evolving_doors wrote: »

3.5x26 is about 100k.
Where did you get a gaffe for that amt?

Not everyone lives in Dublin. Also given that you need to have a deposit the poster could have bought something worth more than 100k. According to Daft there are currently 13 houses and 2 apartments for sale in the town I live in for under 125k. Houses are typically 3-4 bed. Town only has a population of 2500 so that's a considerable number of houses. It's a low salary but it goes further in some counties than others.

skooterblue2

evolving_doors wrote: »

You know so many things skooterblue2, you must have had great teachers.

Not my words, the US Army. despite perceptions they have put massive efforts of time and money into investing in Psychology since after WW1 when units were diversifying.

skooterblue2

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Not everyone lives in Dublin. Also given that you need to have a deposit the poster could have bought something worth more than 100k. According to Daft there are currently 13 houses and 2 apartments for sale in the town I live in for under 125k. Houses are typically 3-4 bed. Town only has a population of 2500 so that's a considerable number of houses. It's a low salary but it goes further in some counties than others.

You must be living either on the border or somewhere in the North west. The reality is for the rest of us living rurally is there isnt much rurally for 180k.

rainbowtrout

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Not my words, the US Army. despite perceptions they have put massive efforts of time and money into investing in Psychology since after WW1 when units were diversifying.

And the value they place on degrees is related to the usefulness of that person to the army. I would imagine that a person who specialises in engineering or IT is probably of more use to them than say a primary school teacher.

yabadabado

seems to be an error in the thread title,teachers are a lot of things but underpaid isnt one of them.

rainbowtrout

skooterblue2 wrote: »

You must be living either on the border or somewhere in the North west. The reality is for the rest of us living rurally is there isnt much rurally for 180k.

Ah here, there are properties in every county in the country for less than 125k. So there are definitely properties for 180k. Maybe you are just looking for something that you can't afford.

skooterblue2

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And the value they place on degrees is related to the usefulness of that person to the army. I would imagine that a person who specialises in engineering or IT is probably of more use to them than say a primary school teacher.

I would have thought but the requirement to be a medic in the US army is higher to that needed for the Intelligence corps which came as a surprise to me. The guy who told me this was a medic in the army and his wife was in intelligence. This ranking of degrees was applicable to general intelligence. I knew this teacher who was boasting she had her master and had a high demonstration of statistical knowledge and what I studied for first year engineering in Maths would have eclipsed her knowledge on maths.

rainbowtrout

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I would have thought but the requirement to be a medic in the US army is higher to that needed for the Intelligence corps which came as a surprise to me. The guy who told me this was a medic in the army and his wife was in intelligence. This ranking of degrees was applicable to general intelligence. I knew this teacher who was boasting she had her master and had a high demonstration of statistical knowledge and what I studied for first year engineering in Maths would have eclipsed her knowledge on maths.

And you are also basing your opinion on the assumption that the US Army is the be all and end all. It is one group who rank degrees in a particular order according to their needs.

How do you know that you knew more maths than her? Were your qualifications even comparable? Honestly, your posts are getting worse and worse.

mtoutlemonde

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Young teachers should start a new union, the old guard sold them out to maintain their generous pensions.

They still wouldn't attend meetings - NQTs/LPTs are waiting and expecting older teachers to do the work for them. I regularly attend union meetings and am yet to see an NQT/LPT present.

skooterblue2

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And you are also basing your opinion on the assumption that the US Army is the be all and end all. It is one group who rank degrees in a particular order according to their needs.

How do you know that you knew more maths than her? Were your qualifications even comparable? Honestly, your posts are getting worse and worse.

The US army has many other functions other than infantry. They need many professions. It is not based on their needs it is based on capability. WE had an in depth discussion, it ended with her storming off in huff. She was one of those feminist who could have done anything on paper but just chose not to because" the misogynist, patriarchal system had kept her out of Science faculty". When I asked her did she apply for it.... she said No.

Of course the qualification weren't comparable she was teaching History and IT (Office nothing serious). She had a masters in Education. In American universities you will find may will drop out of hard sciences and engineering to do education.

skooterblue2

evolving_doors wrote: »

You know so many things skooterblue2, you must have had great teachers.

Thank you. I had many teachers some really good some really bad. Some better than I deserved and some who should never entered the profession and would have been better off staying at home milking cows in Kerry.

man_no_plan

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The US army has many other functions other than infantry. They need many professions. It is not based on their needs it is based on capability. WE had an in depth discussion, it ended with her storming off in huff. She was one of those feminist who could have done anything on paper but just chose not to because" the misogynist, patriarchal system had kept her out of Science faculty". When I asked her did she apply for it.... she said No.

Of course the qualification weren't comparable she was teaching History and IT (Office nothing serious). She had a masters in Education. In American universities you will find may will drop out of hard sciences and engineering to do education.

The US army has nothing to do with teacher pay or ability to get jobs.

There are plenty of teaching jobs available at the minute.

Qualifying as a teacher doesn't entitle you to a job as a teacher any more that qualifying as a barrister entitles you to the lucrative cases.

Starting out is tough in every career. Try getting a mortgage as an apprentice or self employed plumber.
I don't think that house prices should be allowed to dictate salary. A shop worker? a council worker? Should they all be on 100k to afford a mortgage?

Certainly the situation with unequal pay is unfair and undesirable on many fronts, your points about mortgages etc. Are nonsense, however, go back to 2005/6/7 when established permanent teachers couldn't afford houses then either.

Lack of permanent jobs on appointment - not new.

Difficulty gaining employment near home - not new.

Looking at your school friends who work on the buildings earning more than you - not new.

Blaming older teachers for everything - the only novel idea you have, and that's not that new either.

skooterblue2

man_no_plan wrote: »

The US army has nothing to do with teacher pay or ability to get jobs.

.

My point was that a teaching qualification was much easier to achieve than Science degree and using the US Army to demonstrate it and the value placed upon it.

man_no_plan

skooterblue2 wrote: »

My point was that a teaching qualification was much easier to achieve than Science degree and using the US Army to demonstrate it and the value placed upon it.

And?

skooterblue2

man_no_plan wrote: »

And?

Do I have to spell it out?

spurious

I'm not clear what relevance the US Army has to teaching qualifications, or degrees in Ireland. A US B.Ed. would not allow you to teach in Ireland.

skooterblue2

spurious wrote: »

I'm not clear what relevance the US Army has to teaching qualifications, or degrees in Ireland. A US B.Ed. would not allow you to teach in Ireland.

Have you even followed the post. It basically says that to get a teaching degree you have to do less work than almost any other degree according to the US Army, who assess degrees for various roles. I have seen the material for thesis for a guy doing his masters in education and it is not even comparable to the amount of work or understanding needed for a Science/Engineering/IT but teacher feel fully entitled to think they are special and deserve certain social privileges.

emilymemily

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Have you even followed the post. It basically says that to get a teaching degree you have to do less work than almost any other degree according to the US Army, who assess degrees for various roles. I have seen the material for thesis for a guy doing his masters in education and it is not even comparable to the amount of work or understanding needed for a Science/Engineering/IT but teacher feel fully entitled to think they are special and deserve certain social privileges.

Don't feed the troll ^^

TheDriver

I'm getting a blistering headache from the young vs experienced teacher chestnut again and US army is a new departure for this forum but anyways, let's behave and get back boys and girls to simples which is difficulty in getting jobs and underpaid nature. Any teacher bashing type trolling gets a card

TheDriver

It's an annual thing about jobs but there are a good number of jobs out there plus a smaller pool of people going for them. There are many factors to explain why done people may unfortunately not get appointed to positions

mtoutlemonde

Two articles from Irish Times:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/how-can-we-solve-the-teacher-supply-crisis-1.3561239?mode=amp

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teacher-shortages-at-second-level-set-to-deepen-1.3560594?mode=amp&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&__twitter_impression=true

c.p.w.g.w

evolving_doors wrote: »

3.5x26 is about 100k.
Where did you get a gaffe for that amt?

Limerick city, 104,500, 1500sq/ft.
35 mins walk to city center
5 schools within walking distance
3 major supermarkets within walking distance