Pro 16

LeinsterDub

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/1014498457212669952

I'd have major concerns here. Who are these teams? I've never heard of them and also does SA have the players to support 10 professional teams?

I know this is very much rumor at this stage but if we are expanding to 16 we should be demanding at least 1 on the current SA teams.

Neil3030

Far too speculative to go deep into this, but that'd be immensely underwhelming.

The Lost Sheep

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'd have major concerns here. Who are these teams? I've never heard of them and also does SA have the players to support 10 professional teams?

I know this is very much rumor at this stage but if we are expanding to 16 we should be demanding at least 1 on the current SA teams.

Does South Africa not already have 16 pro teams as all currie cup teams are pro with the super rugby teams just combinations of those squads/best of groups of those squads?
And moving more teams to europe is to try keep players playing in south africa but also able to play in europe and potentially increase incomes to stop players from having to move away.

stephen_n

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Does South Africa not already have 16 pro teams as all currie cup teams are pro with the super rugby teams just combinations of those squads/best of groups of those squads?
And moving more teams to europe is to try keep players playing in south africa but also able to play in europe and potentially increase incomes to stop players from having to move away.

Didn't seem to work well with the Cheetahs.

CIARAN_BOYLE

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Does South Africa not already have 16 pro teams as all currie cup teams are pro with the super rugby teams just combinations of those squads/best of groups of those squads?
And moving more teams to europe is to try keep players playing in south africa but also able to play in europe and potentially increase incomes to stop players from having to move away.

I believe most of the currie cup are semi pro these days with a leaving on pro players from the related super rugby franchise.

To be honest the question is not do south africa have enough players , a quick glance the number of south african professionals in europe will tell you that they do, rather can the domestic rugby economy support enough players in south africa. To be honest i doubt it.

sydthebeat

Both the griquas and the pumas would both be a ****ter version of the current Kings.... Completely pointless allowing teams of that quality join.

irishbucsfan

The South Africans are staying in Super Rugby.

Having Griquas and Pumas join Pro 14 would allow them to keep their feet firmly in both camps.

troyzer

The Griquas and Pumas would never be competitive in a Pro16. I can understand from a South African perspective why this would make sense, but why would the Pro14 benefit from this?

I can only imagine they're eyeing up a bigger slice of the domestic South African TV audience but not many people attend or watch these teams as it is, never mind watching them get hammered 60-0 by Leinster et al.

LeinsterDub

troyzer wrote: »

The Griquas and Pumas would never be competitive in a Pro16. I can understand from a South African perspective why this would make sense, but why would the Pro14 benefit from this?

I can only imagine they're eyeing up a bigger slice of the domestic South African TV audience but not many people attend or watch these teams as it is, never mind watching them get hammered 60-0 by Leinster et al.

They're well supported in the Currie Cup

troyzer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They're well supported in the Currie Cup

Are they? The pumas have a medium sized stadium and they never fill it.

Burkie1203

troyzer wrote: »

The Griquas and Pumas would never be competitive in a Pro16. I can understand from a South African perspective why this would make sense, but why would the Pro14 benefit from this?

I can only imagine they're eyeing up a bigger slice of the domestic South African TV audience but not many people attend or watch these teams as it is, never mind watching them get hammered 60-0 by Leinster et al.

This means fewer games by 3. Also increases the amount of Turkey shoots. It's like adding two division 2 AIL teams

sydthebeat

Burkie1203 wrote: »

This means fewer games by 3. Also increases the amount of Turkey shoots. It's like adding two division 2 AIL teams

Even worse, the griquas are a feeder team for the cheetahs franchise, so their inclusion would weaken the cheetahs even more.

Tigerandahalf

How do they figure there would be less games?
Currently there are 21 league games - 6 home and away in your own conference = 14 plus playing the other 7 + 2 extra interpros = 21.

8 team conference = 14 home away games +
8 in the other conference = 22. That excludes the extra 2 inter pros.

Unless you only play each team once -
7 games + 8 in other conference + 2 inter pros = 17 league games in a season. Thus they don't play on the 3 international weekends is it?

troyzer

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

How do they figure there would be less games?
Currently there are 21 league games - 6 home and away in your own conference = 14 plus playing the other 7 + 2 extra interpros = 21.

8 team conference = 14 home away games +
8 in the other conference = 22. That excludes the extra 2 inter pros.

Unless you only play each team once -
7 games + 8 in other conference + 2 inter pros = 17 league games in a season. Thus they don't play on the 3 international weekends is it?

That's what they're saying. You suspend the league for the internationals.

LeinsterDub

troyzer wrote: »

Are they? The pumas have a medium sized stadium and they never fill it.

The Pumas average crowds of 13,000 at home Currie Cup matches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumas_(rugby_team)

In Pro X terms that's a decent crowd

troyzer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumas_(rugby_team)

In Pro X terms that's a decent crowd

13,000 isn't too bad. Their stadium is probably just far too big. It always looked empty when I've watched them on the box.

prawnsambo

troyzer wrote: »

That's what they're saying. You suspend the league for the internationals.

Yeah. You set up the conferences so that the derbies are within the conference rather than cross-conference. So you could have the four SA teams together with four Irish, Welsh or the Scots and Italians. Would cut down on the travelling too.

Tigerandahalf

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. You set up the conferences so that the derbies are within the conference rather than cross-conference. So you could have the four SA teams together with four Irish, Welsh or the Scots and Italians. Would cut down on the travelling too.

I can't see that happening. I think you will see an end to the inter pros. They are already a poor product with shadow teams being put out in half the fixtures. You only want Munster and Leinster playing max twice a season including playoffs.
If the tv revenue makes sense everyone will compromise.

I wonder will Super Rugby go back to a Super 12 format played over a small window.

irishbucsfan

There will definitely not be an end to the interpros. Not a chance.

Squidgy Black

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I can't see that happening. I think you will see an end to the inter pros. They are already a poor product with shadow teams being put out in half the fixtures. You only want Munster and Leinster playing max twice a season including playoffs.
If the tv revenue makes sense everyone will compromise.

I wonder will Super Rugby go back to a Super 12 format played over a small window.

The IRFU definitely will not compromise. The InterPros are a huge money spinner for them.

thegreycity

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

How do they figure there would be less games?
Currently there are 21 league games - 6 home and away in your own conference = 14 plus playing the other 7 + 2 extra interpros = 21.

8 team conference = 14 home away games +
8 in the other conference = 22. That excludes the extra 2 inter pros.

Unless you only play each team once -
7 games + 8 in other conference + 2 inter pros = 17 league games in a season. Thus they don't play on the 3 international weekends is it?

If they're only going to do one game against each team then they should scrap the conference system and make it a combined table.

No doubt each year we would end up with some horrendously unfair situations but that's not going to change by having conferences.

molloyjh

I don't want less games tbh. Less rugby is a bad thing as far as I'm concerned. I like getting to see the wider squad in action in competitive senior games. It helps develop depth in the Pro14 squads, which is something that works to our advantage both provincially and nationally in the longer term. And call me cynical, but I don't see the prices of season tickets going down, or TV subscriptions, when the number of games are reduced.

I'm not sure where the Griquas and Pumas thing is coming from, but they'd be a poor choice. The attempt to improve the product by reducing games would immediately be undone by adding 2 more also-rans to the equation. And so we'd have more poor opposition facing stronger teams making the whole thing less competitive. Is there a risk here that we're chasing the Euros a bit too much?

awec

There are already far too many dead rubber games in the Pro14, we don’t need to add more.

awec

awec wrote: »

There are already far too many dead rubber games in the Pro14, we don’t need to add more.

It might have been a dead rubber, but I for one welcome more results like this

Connacht 47 - 10 Leinster

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

It might have been a dead rubber, but I for one welcome more results like this

Connacht 47 - 10 Leinster

You're welcome to them as long as we keep getting results like this....

troyzer

molloyjh wrote: »

You're welcome to them as long as we keep getting results like this....

Rekt m8

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

You're welcome to them as long as we keep getting results like this....

Eh, we're talking about the Pro 1x here, not Europe :P

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Eh, we're talking about the Pro 1x here, not Europe :P

What's that trophy on the left? :pac:

errlloyd

It's definitely gonna be 4 conferences of Wales, Ireland, SA and others.

That gives you 6 fixtures in your conference and 12 fixtures in the other conferences. So 18 regular season. Then seeded quarters, semis and final.

thegreycity

errlloyd wrote: »

It's definitely gonna be 4 conferences of Wales, Ireland, SA and others.

That gives you 6 fixtures in your conference and 12 fixtures in the other conferences. So 18 regular season. Then seeded quarters, semis and final.

I actually like the sound of this. Obviously the Irish and Welsh conferences will be considerably harder than the other two, but we have that imbalance anyway with the focus on derbies.

Because you have four conferences you couldn't do seeded quarters, it would just be the top two from each conference go into the knockouts.

molloyjh

thegreycity wrote: »

I actually like the sound of this. Obviously the Irish and Welsh conferences will be considerably harder than the other two, but we have that imbalance anyway with the focus on derbies.

Because you have four conferences you couldn't do seeded quarters, it would just be the top two from each conference go into the knockouts.

I think that'd be ridiculous tbh. The 4 Irish provinces generally have at least 3 teams in or close to the knock outs. The Welsh teams generally have 1 good team (Ospreys/Scarlets), 2 average teams (Cardiff & Scarlets/Ospreys) and 1 awful team (Dragons). Over the 9 seasons with play-offs the Welsh have only gotten more than 1 team into the play-offs once. Last year, when Munster spanked Ospreys in the SF after the Ospreys had started their decline into averageness.

Compare that to Irish provinces. In the 9 years of play-offs we've never had less than 2 teams competing at that stage, and on 3 separate occasions we've had 3 teams in the knock outs. Of the 38 teams to play knock-out league rugby, 21 have been Irish provinces and only 8 have been Welsh regions. Irish teams have won 10 league titles to 6 Welsh.

And that's comparing us to the Welsh, the ones who are consistently the most competitive of the other nations in the league. Having an all Irish conference like that would give Irish provinces an immediate disadvantage over pretty much all other teams. You could have a situation where Leinster and Munster qualify from the Irish conference and Ulster don't, yet Ulster could be one of the top 5 or 6 teams in the competition.

AbusesToilets

I'd much rather a punt being taken on teams from Germany and Spain, than two more weak SA teams.

Tigerandahalf

There have been rumours that the Sharks would also join.
So who knows what cap they have in mind in terms of numbers.

A single table of 16 teams would appeal more to fans. 15 games plus the 3 extra derbies leaves you with 18 league games, 3 less than the current 21. Perhaps the Italians and Scots could group together so they play extra games against each other.

prawnsambo

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'd much rather a punt being taken on teams from Germany and Spain, than two more weak SA teams.

There's no upside to that other than for the Germans or Spanish. There'd be no TV money and really dross teams. At least with the Saffers, you get a TV audience and crowds* turning up.



*For the purposes of this discussion, 'crowds' is a relative term.

troyzer

prawnsambo wrote: »

There's no upside to that other than for the Germans or Spanish. There'd be no TV money and really dross teams. At least with the Saffers, you get a TV audience and crowds* turning up.



*For the purposes of this discussion, 'crowds' is a relative term.

Thanks for qualifying that statement.

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/shocking-turnout-leinsters-first-pro14-game-south-africa-373695

sydthebeat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Currie_Cup_Premier_Division#Attendances

although from 2014... i cant see how the pumas attendance has grown by 150% in 4 years
and the griquas is pity full.
especially in view that the consensus is that more and more are staying away

awec

The Pro14 really need to maintain some sort of bar. If South Africa want to send us more teams then they need to insist on current super rugby teams.

The league should not turn into a tournament for semi pro teams to give pro rugby a go.

irishbucsfan

We can insist on Super rugby teams all we like, we won't get them. SANZAR are staying together, that seems pretty clear now.

Teams that are considered "good" today may not be good by the time they enter the league. We're only seeing a tiny sliver of a rumour of a potential long-term plan.

AbusesToilets

I think there is value in bringing teams from Europe in. Capture the market, help them develop, widen the potential base for rugby in general.

prawnsambo

troyzer wrote: »

Thanks for qualifying that statement.

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/shocking-turnout-leinsters-first-pro14-game-south-africa-373695

Well the stats on the Pro14 website tell a different story. Kings averaged about 3k a game in the early part of the season and that grew to over 6k by the end. Cheetahs went from about 4.5k to up above 6k as well.


That compares very favourably with the likes of Zebre, Edinburgh, Benetton etc.

wp_rathead

troyzer wrote: »

Thanks for qualifying that statement.

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/shocking-turnout-leinsters-first-pro14-game-south-africa-373695

sorry the attendances for Cheetahs was actually pretty decent
There were more people at Cheetahs v Ospreys than there was Ospreys v Cheetahs in Swansea
There were more people at Cheetahs v Cardiff than there was Cardiff v Cheetahs in Cardiff
Cheetahs had a home crowd of 6980 for their game against Leinster - more than Leinster away too Dragons, Benetton and Edinburgh - and just 300 less than Glasgow and 800 than Ospreys

It's just their stadium is too fecking big

prawnsambo

Yeah, whatever about the Spanish, the German natonal team can barely make the kinds of numbers the Kings were gettng last season. Span can get good numbers out, but hard to know if that would translate to the clubs there.

AbusesToilets

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah, whatever about the Spanish, the German natonal team can barely make the kinds of numbers the Kings were gettng last season. Span can get good numbers out, but hard to know if that would translate to the clubs there.

Suppose it could be a bit of a build it and they'll come deal. If there is an serious desire to develop rugby, something has to give. There needs to be an avenue for lower tier nations to develop. Club game imo is the best vehicle for this.

The MLR is such a huge step in the right direction, and I hope that the Pro 14 stays away from the US market and lets it develop on its own.

Neil3030

Georgian Giaguares or gtfo.

Rigor Mortis

There is no substantiation for this claim. A few weeks ago it was the Sharks. Pro14 needs at least one of the two teams to be Super Rugby. They need to make sure that when SA finally move north that they dont get any ideas about going elsewhere

pickarooney

What's the logic in a south African team being called the Pumas?

troyzer

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Suppose it could be a bit of a build it and they'll come deal. If there is an serious desire to develop rugby, something has to give. There needs to be an avenue for lower tier nations to develop. Club game imo is the best vehicle for this.

The MLR is such a huge step in the right direction, and I hope that the Pro 14 stays away from the US market and lets it develop on its own.

Do you reckon the US could ever be any good at rugby or could it only ever aspire to be an upper second tier country? It just seems that the best players will always go to the NFL. If you're a physical freak and would dominate as a forward, why wouldn't you get paid ten times more to do it for the Cowboys?

I can never see the sport fully reaching its potential in the US because of this.

pickarooney

troyzer wrote: »

Do you reckon the US could ever be any good at rugby or could it only ever aspire to be an upper second tier country? It just seems that the best players will always go to the NFL. If you're a physical freak and would dominate as a forward, why wouldn't you get paid ten times more to do it for the Cowboys?

I can never see the sport fully reaching its potential in the US because of this.

There's a very limited number of places in the NFL. The players who don't quite make it would be more than physically apt for rugby.

troyzer

pickarooney wrote: »

There's a very limited number of places in the NFL. The players who don't quite make it would be more than physically apt for rugby.

It's not easy to pick up rugby union at an elite international level at 20 odd.

If you ever get some money in the league over there then it will begin to Crete a pipeline for younger Americans in that case they could very much become tier 1. At the moment I think most players take it up in college and they are a very serviceable tier 2. If they ever get a half decent interest they could be a monster without most of the country knowing about it (which would generate more interest because the Americans love winning ****)

él statutorio

Paris Yellow Self-sufficient wrote: »

If you ever get some money in the league over there then it will begin to Crete a pipeline for younger Americans in that case they could very much become tier 1. At the moment I think most players take it up in college and they are a very serviceable tier 2. If they ever get a half decent interest they could be a monster without most of the country knowing about it (which would generate more interest because the Americans love winning ****)

The new league here will help.

Most Americans are aware of rugby and view it as a tough sport (similar to how they view NFL).

If the new league gets the media backing that is being rumoured, then we'll see an increasing interest.

At grassroots levels it's the fastest growing sport in the country. At kids level, it's really taking off, mainly because it has the physicality of NFL. But, kitting out a kid for pee-wee football is pricey, rugby just requires boots and a gumshield.

There are a lot of teenagers playing it, especially at college level. A lot of these are coming from local clubs and kids are seeing rugby (scholarships in particular) as a method to get into college.