Pro 16

LeinsterDub · 04-07-2018 4:37pm #1

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/1014498457212669952

I'd have major concerns here. Who are these teams? I've never heard of them and also does SA have the players to support 10 professional teams?

I know this is very much rumor at this stage but if we are expanding to 16 we should be demanding at least 1 on the current SA teams.

Neil3030 · 04-07-2018 5:12pm

Far too speculative to go deep into this, but that'd be immensely underwhelming.

The Lost Sheep · 04-07-2018 5:26pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'd have major concerns here. Who are these teams? I've never heard of them and also does SA have the players to support 10 professional teams?

I know this is very much rumor at this stage but if we are expanding to 16 we should be demanding at least 1 on the current SA teams.

Does South Africa not already have 16 pro teams as all currie cup teams are pro with the super rugby teams just combinations of those squads/best of groups of those squads?
And moving more teams to europe is to try keep players playing in south africa but also able to play in europe and potentially increase incomes to stop players from having to move away.

stephen_n · 04-07-2018 6:02pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Does South Africa not already have 16 pro teams as all currie cup teams are pro with the super rugby teams just combinations of those squads/best of groups of those squads?
And moving more teams to europe is to try keep players playing in south africa but also able to play in europe and potentially increase incomes to stop players from having to move away.

Didn't seem to work well with the Cheetahs.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 05-07-2018 8:06am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Does South Africa not already have 16 pro teams as all currie cup teams are pro with the super rugby teams just combinations of those squads/best of groups of those squads?
And moving more teams to europe is to try keep players playing in south africa but also able to play in europe and potentially increase incomes to stop players from having to move away.

I believe most of the currie cup are semi pro these days with a leaving on pro players from the related super rugby franchise.

To be honest the question is not do south africa have enough players , a quick glance the number of south african professionals in europe will tell you that they do, rather can the domestic rugby economy support enough players in south africa. To be honest i doubt it.

sydthebeat · 05-07-2018 8:12am

Both the griquas and the pumas would both be a ****ter version of the current Kings.... Completely pointless allowing teams of that quality join.

irishbucsfan · 05-07-2018 8:13am

The South Africans are staying in Super Rugby.

Having Griquas and Pumas join Pro 14 would allow them to keep their feet firmly in both camps.

troyzer · 05-07-2018 8:19am

The Griquas and Pumas would never be competitive in a Pro16. I can understand from a South African perspective why this would make sense, but why would the Pro14 benefit from this?

I can only imagine they're eyeing up a bigger slice of the domestic South African TV audience but not many people attend or watch these teams as it is, never mind watching them get hammered 60-0 by Leinster et al.

LeinsterDub · 05-07-2018 9:12am

troyzer wrote: »

The Griquas and Pumas would never be competitive in a Pro16. I can understand from a South African perspective why this would make sense, but why would the Pro14 benefit from this?

I can only imagine they're eyeing up a bigger slice of the domestic South African TV audience but not many people attend or watch these teams as it is, never mind watching them get hammered 60-0 by Leinster et al.

They're well supported in the Currie Cup

troyzer · 05-07-2018 9:24am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They're well supported in the Currie Cup

Are they? The pumas have a medium sized stadium and they never fill it.

Burkie1203 · 05-07-2018 9:26am

troyzer wrote: »

The Griquas and Pumas would never be competitive in a Pro16. I can understand from a South African perspective why this would make sense, but why would the Pro14 benefit from this?

I can only imagine they're eyeing up a bigger slice of the domestic South African TV audience but not many people attend or watch these teams as it is, never mind watching them get hammered 60-0 by Leinster et al.

This means fewer games by 3. Also increases the amount of Turkey shoots. It's like adding two division 2 AIL teams

sydthebeat · 05-07-2018 9:30am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

This means fewer games by 3. Also increases the amount of Turkey shoots. It's like adding two division 2 AIL teams

Even worse, the griquas are a feeder team for the cheetahs franchise, so their inclusion would weaken the cheetahs even more.

Tigerandahalf · 05-07-2018 9:44am

How do they figure there would be less games?
Currently there are 21 league games - 6 home and away in your own conference = 14 plus playing the other 7 + 2 extra interpros = 21.

8 team conference = 14 home away games +
8 in the other conference = 22. That excludes the extra 2 inter pros.

Unless you only play each team once -
7 games + 8 in other conference + 2 inter pros = 17 league games in a season. Thus they don't play on the 3 international weekends is it?

troyzer · 05-07-2018 9:46am

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

How do they figure there would be less games?
Currently there are 21 league games - 6 home and away in your own conference = 14 plus playing the other 7 + 2 extra interpros = 21.

8 team conference = 14 home away games +
8 in the other conference = 22. That excludes the extra 2 inter pros.

Unless you only play each team once -
7 games + 8 in other conference + 2 inter pros = 17 league games in a season. Thus they don't play on the 3 international weekends is it?

That's what they're saying. You suspend the league for the internationals.

LeinsterDub · 05-07-2018 9:47am

troyzer wrote: »

Are they? The pumas have a medium sized stadium and they never fill it.

The Pumas average crowds of 13,000 at home Currie Cup matches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumas_(rugby_team)

In Pro X terms that's a decent crowd

troyzer · 05-07-2018 9:48am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumas_(rugby_team)

In Pro X terms that's a decent crowd

13,000 isn't too bad. Their stadium is probably just far too big. It always looked empty when I've watched them on the box.

prawnsambo · 05-07-2018 10:03am

troyzer wrote: »

That's what they're saying. You suspend the league for the internationals.

Yeah. You set up the conferences so that the derbies are within the conference rather than cross-conference. So you could have the four SA teams together with four Irish, Welsh or the Scots and Italians. Would cut down on the travelling too.

Tigerandahalf · 05-07-2018 10:15am

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. You set up the conferences so that the derbies are within the conference rather than cross-conference. So you could have the four SA teams together with four Irish, Welsh or the Scots and Italians. Would cut down on the travelling too.

I can't see that happening. I think you will see an end to the inter pros. They are already a poor product with shadow teams being put out in half the fixtures. You only want Munster and Leinster playing max twice a season including playoffs.
If the tv revenue makes sense everyone will compromise.

I wonder will Super Rugby go back to a Super 12 format played over a small window.

irishbucsfan · 05-07-2018 10:16am

There will definitely not be an end to the interpros. Not a chance.

Squidgy Black · 05-07-2018 10:18am

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I can't see that happening. I think you will see an end to the inter pros. They are already a poor product with shadow teams being put out in half the fixtures. You only want Munster and Leinster playing max twice a season including playoffs.
If the tv revenue makes sense everyone will compromise.

I wonder will Super Rugby go back to a Super 12 format played over a small window.

The IRFU definitely will not compromise. The InterPros are a huge money spinner for them.

thegreycity · 05-07-2018 10:26am

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

How do they figure there would be less games?
Currently there are 21 league games - 6 home and away in your own conference = 14 plus playing the other 7 + 2 extra interpros = 21.

8 team conference = 14 home away games +
8 in the other conference = 22. That excludes the extra 2 inter pros.

Unless you only play each team once -
7 games + 8 in other conference + 2 inter pros = 17 league games in a season. Thus they don't play on the 3 international weekends is it?

If they're only going to do one game against each team then they should scrap the conference system and make it a combined table.

No doubt each year we would end up with some horrendously unfair situations but that's not going to change by having conferences.

molloyjh · 05-07-2018 10:43am

I don't want less games tbh. Less rugby is a bad thing as far as I'm concerned. I like getting to see the wider squad in action in competitive senior games. It helps develop depth in the Pro14 squads, which is something that works to our advantage both provincially and nationally in the longer term. And call me cynical, but I don't see the prices of season tickets going down, or TV subscriptions, when the number of games are reduced.

I'm not sure where the Griquas and Pumas thing is coming from, but they'd be a poor choice. The attempt to improve the product by reducing games would immediately be undone by adding 2 more also-rans to the equation. And so we'd have more poor opposition facing stronger teams making the whole thing less competitive. Is there a risk here that we're chasing the Euros a bit too much?

awec · 05-07-2018 10:53am

There are already far too many dead rubber games in the Pro14, we don’t need to add more.

[Deleted User] · 05-07-2018 11:42am

awec wrote: »

There are already far too many dead rubber games in the Pro14, we don’t need to add more.

It might have been a dead rubber, but I for one welcome more results like this

Connacht 47 - 10 Leinster

molloyjh · 05-07-2018 11:47am

bazwraf wrote: »

It might have been a dead rubber, but I for one welcome more results like this

Connacht 47 - 10 Leinster

You're welcome to them as long as we keep getting results like this....

troyzer · 05-07-2018 11:57am

molloyjh wrote: »

You're welcome to them as long as we keep getting results like this....

Rekt m8

[Deleted User] · 05-07-2018 12:00pm

molloyjh wrote: »

You're welcome to them as long as we keep getting results like this....

Eh, we're talking about the Pro 1x here, not Europe :P

prawnsambo · 05-07-2018 12:05pm

bazwraf wrote: »

Eh, we're talking about the Pro 1x here, not Europe :P

What's that trophy on the left? :pac:

errlloyd · 05-07-2018 12:24pm

It's definitely gonna be 4 conferences of Wales, Ireland, SA and others.

That gives you 6 fixtures in your conference and 12 fixtures in the other conferences. So 18 regular season. Then seeded quarters, semis and final.

thegreycity · 05-07-2018 12:38pm

errlloyd wrote: »

It's definitely gonna be 4 conferences of Wales, Ireland, SA and others.

That gives you 6 fixtures in your conference and 12 fixtures in the other conferences. So 18 regular season. Then seeded quarters, semis and final.

I actually like the sound of this. Obviously the Irish and Welsh conferences will be considerably harder than the other two, but we have that imbalance anyway with the focus on derbies.

Because you have four conferences you couldn't do seeded quarters, it would just be the top two from each conference go into the knockouts.

molloyjh · 05-07-2018 12:56pm

thegreycity wrote: »

I actually like the sound of this. Obviously the Irish and Welsh conferences will be considerably harder than the other two, but we have that imbalance anyway with the focus on derbies.

Because you have four conferences you couldn't do seeded quarters, it would just be the top two from each conference go into the knockouts.

I think that'd be ridiculous tbh. The 4 Irish provinces generally have at least 3 teams in or close to the knock outs. The Welsh teams generally have 1 good team (Ospreys/Scarlets), 2 average teams (Cardiff & Scarlets/Ospreys) and 1 awful team (Dragons). Over the 9 seasons with play-offs the Welsh have only gotten more than 1 team into the play-offs once. Last year, when Munster spanked Ospreys in the SF after the Ospreys had started their decline into averageness.

Compare that to Irish provinces. In the 9 years of play-offs we've never had less than 2 teams competing at that stage, and on 3 separate occasions we've had 3 teams in the knock outs. Of the 38 teams to play knock-out league rugby, 21 have been Irish provinces and only 8 have been Welsh regions. Irish teams have won 10 league titles to 6 Welsh.

And that's comparing us to the Welsh, the ones who are consistently the most competitive of the other nations in the league. Having an all Irish conference like that would give Irish provinces an immediate disadvantage over pretty much all other teams. You could have a situation where Leinster and Munster qualify from the Irish conference and Ulster don't, yet Ulster could be one of the top 5 or 6 teams in the competition.

Pro 16

Comments