Shannon Airport synoptic weather station siting

Rougies

gozunda wrote: »

Anemometer location for shannon airport shown on map at following link c. 1979

Do not see weather station site indicated ...


http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/shannon042.pdf

Nice find for info. I overlayed the map and it looks like those anemometers have been moved too, I cant see anything but lamposts and trees in the area? Red outline is the hotly debated new site location for reference.

Rougies

spookwoman wrote: »

might be here Tower at https://www.google.com/maps/@52.6970872,-8.9397998,3a,66.8y,183.33h,94.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sS5ZgQXClrhxl4mnkICIbSw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Could be. That doesn't look like a dedicated anemometer tower, but it's entirely possible that the anemometer is mounted on one of the multiple towers at the airport. It could be anywhere really.

EDIT: that's actually the same tower that I suggested in this post a few days ago. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=107390244

Just Saying

That would place the anemometers on the right hand side of the 11th fairway of the golf course.

Donegal Storm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Well that seems to sort the thumbnail bit out, but we still don't know where it is now. Not sure why Met Éireann have the coordinates up at that bus stop near the terminal.

I'd say your original guess might be right. Looking at the old imagery here in more detail, there's what looks like a compound slightly further north than the one I circled earlier (entirely surrounded by concrete and tarmac!) visible in 1995 and 2000. Its been paved in the 2005 imagery while the site you mentioned suddenly has something on it.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,591271,743300,0,10

Gaoth Laidir

spookwoman wrote: »

might be here Tower at https://www.google.com/maps/@52.6970872,-8.9397998,3a,66.8y,183.33h,94.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sS5ZgQXClrhxl4mnkICIbSw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

That's the Glidescope antenna, part of the ILS (Instrument Landing System). There is one of those at each touchdown zone at either end of the runway.

Gaoth Laidir

Just on another note, comparing actual station pressure to the reduced sea-level pressure, there is a difference of around 2.3 hPa. This would imply that the barometer is sited around 20 metres amsl (given a conversion of around 8.2m/hPa). Airport elevation is just 6 m amsl, so the barometer must be several floors up from ground level. It doesn't mean that that's where the rest of the instruments are, just the barometer.

Latest synop, showing the station and amsl pressure groups (3**** and 4**** groups, respectively). 30128 = station pressure 1012.8 hPa, 40151 = reduced to sea level 1015.1 hPa.

AAXX 04071 03962 42868 12402 10164 20119 30128 40151 54000 81532
333 81657=

mickmackey1

Well it's only 18c at 11am, must have dug up the car park.

Sully

This what you're looking for? Down the back of the golf course beside the long term car park and beside the control tower.

https://ibb.co/bw96Rd

Akrasia

Thanks Sully

Great picture.

This is a shocking site for a Met Eireann weather station.

What are they thinking?

Looks like Gaoth ladir was right. Sorry for doubting you.

How can Met eireann get away with providing incorrect siting coordinates on their website and on the GHCN and other climate monitoring services?

Sully

Akrasia wrote: »

Thanks Sully

Great picture.

This is a shocking site for a Met Eireann weather station.

What are they thinking?

Looks like Gaoth ladir was right. Sorry for doubting you.

How can Met eireann get away with providing incorrect siting coordinates on their website and on the GHCN and other climate monitoring services?

Just to clarify - the site isn't near the terminal building or presumably where the MET office is. The MET jeeps are right beside the terminal across from the rental car park.

The site I photographed is the opposite side of the airport beside the main control tower and the IAA office. It's the back of the golf club.

If a closer photo is needed I can take one too.

Rougies

Sully wrote: »

Just to clarify - the site isn't near the terminal building or presumably where the MET office is. The MET jeeps are right beside the terminal across from the rental car park.

The site I photographed is the opposite side of the airport beside the main control tower and the IAA office. It's the back of the golf club.

If a closer photo is needed I can take one too.

It's the exact site in question, thanks! It looks like the weather station to me.

spookwoman

Site is terrible, tarmac and also the heat from the cars

Gaoth Laidir

Sully wrote: »

Just to clarify - the site isn't near the terminal building or presumably where the MET office is. The MET jeeps are right beside the terminal across from the rental car park.

The site I photographed is the opposite side of the airport beside the main control tower and the IAA office. It's the back of the golf club.

If a closer photo is needed I can take one too.

Great photo, thanks. Now, about that breakfast roll...

So it does put the temperatures of this recent spell, and some othets too, in some context. Of course, even without a huge tarmaced area to its east it would still be warm in a northeasterly breeze off the land, but in late afternoon/evening, that tarmac could be 40-50 °C, which definitely will add something to the air advecting over it in a light northeasterly/easterly.

I see that they have the optical sensor and cielometer installed for the automation that is coming down the line. Strange that they don't have the rain gauge sites in that compound. EDIT: I think I do see a rain gauge (white thing just to the right of the diagonal corner poles near the centre of the photo), but it's above ground level. Other stations have them sunk down in shallow circular pits so that the top rim is flush with ground level to minimise turbulence effects. Strange that it's not the case here.

Gaoth Laidir

Akrasia wrote: »

Thanks Sully

How can Met eireann get away with providing incorrect siting coordinates on their website and on the GHCN and other climate monitoring services?

The centre of that station compound is precisely 52.695269, -8.929463 (52°41'42.96" N 8°55'46.06" W), according to Bing maps (and the ICAO Airport diagram). Met Éireann's coordinates are 52°41'31" N 8°55'8" W (the bus stop at the terminal building, 787 metres to the EAST). The GHCN is a less precise 52.70 N 8.93 W, which is around 660 m to the NORTH, out in open country.

Discrepancies like this do need to be cleared up. The ECAD metadata for Shannon show no record of station changes, relocations, etc., which are normally reported (e.g. in the case of Phoenix Park). It also shows the location to be in the sea...

Gaoth Laidir

I notice that the Stevenson screen in the centre left of the image doesn't seem to be the standard fully-louvred screen you normally see. The ventilation slits are fairly small to allow proper ventilation. The whole thing is also sitting on a big concrete slab, which itself is going to heat up during the day and send hot air right up into the box.

Oneiric was right. This station is a realistic representation of what most people will experience in concreted built-up areas, with multiple sources of extraneous heat. It's not a realistic example of a properly-sited station.

Oneiric 3

Sully wrote: »

If a closer photo is needed I can take one too.

If you do get the chance this would be great. An awful lot of cars park around the site. God only knows how much of any effect this would have in hot weather like this, not to mention all that sunshine being reflected from the windscreens themselves onto the Stevenson screen.


As GL rightly pointed out, this Stevenson screen itself looks suspect, with very little in the way of ventilation it would seem. I have noticed on my own humble weather station that in flat calm weather (which is admittedly a rare occurrence in these parts), that temps in the evening can 'stagnate' inside the screen when an high quality open probe thermometer I have hanging out the back window sill will show a steady fall.

Ever notice how Shannon temps on a calm, warm summer evening are nearly always slower to fall than other stations around the country? This is beginning to make sense now.

Ultimate Seduction

Can't believe it's actually that close to the car park. Wonder would an email to met get any worthwhile response? Joanna Donnelly constantly questioning and downplaying the Kilkenny 33.3c but this is less realiable.

Bsal

That is a ridiculous position for the met station, there is plenty of open grass areas airside on the airfield that would be much more suitable.

Akrasia

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Can't believe it's actually that close to the car park. Wonder would an email to met get any worthwhile response? Joanna Donnelly constantly questioning and downplaying the Kilkenny 33.3c but this is less realiable.

I emailed them a few days but they ignored me. A tweet or two might be better. Or even a friendly enquiry from a journalist or two?

Gaoth Laidir

Here are the daily summaries for the past 30 days a Shannon. Click on one of those hot days and note how the warmest temperatures invariably occur when the wind swings around to NE/E/SE. Obviously a S or SW wind will be off the sea, so we wouldn't expect it to be so warm, but in the hourly reports you can see the not-too-subtle effect of wind direction during the afternoons/evenings, straight off the carpark.

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsynres?lang=en&ind=03962&ndays=30&ano=2018&mes=07&day=05&hora=00&ord=REV&Send=Send

Ultimate Seduction

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Here are the daily summaries for the past 30 days a Shannon. Click on one of those hot days and note how the warmest temperatures invariably occur when the wind swings around to NE/E/SE. Obviously a S or SW wind will be off the sea, so we wouldn't expect it to be so warm, but in the hourly reports you can see the not-too-subtle effect of wind direction during the afternoons/evenings, straight off the carpark.

http://www.ogimet.com/cgi-bin/gsynres?lang=en&ind=03962&ndays=30&ano=2018&mes=07&day=05&hora=00&ord=REV&Send=Send

No matter where they put it at the airport it's always going to be warmer with anything from the east though isn't it? Really explains why Shannon holds its temps so late in to the evening though. It's sitting on a slab of concrete even.

Villain

Compare and contrast to Oak Park Carlow photos I took last week

http://carlowweather.com/blog/oak-park-weather-stations/

mickmackey1

Where is the perfect site though? Even if you have it in an open field you could say the lack of obstructions generates an artificial environment.

Danno

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

I notice that the Stevenson screen in the centre left of the image doesn't seem to be the standard fully-louvred screen you normally see. The ventilation slits are fairly small to allow proper ventilation. The whole thing is also sitting on a big concrete slab, which itself is going to heat up during the day and send hot air right up into the box.

Oneiric was right. This station is a realistic representation of what most people will experience in concreted built-up areas, with multiple sources of extraneous heat. It's not a realistic example of a properly-sited station.

To be quite honest, I'm very surprised that this is the quality in the siting of Shannon's station. By contrast with the Durrow station that's in a different league altogether. Surely there are questions to be asked about the recordings there, not just the highs, but the winter lows too?

Gaoth Laidir

Danno wrote: »

To be quite honest, I'm very surprised that this is the quality in the siting of Shannon's station. By contrast with the Durrow station that's in a different league altogether. Surely there are questions to be asked about the recordings there, not just the highs, but the winter lows too?

Do you have any photos of your site, just for comparison?

Gaoth Laidir

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Where is the perfect site though? Even if you have it in an open field you could say the lack of obstructions generates an artificial environment.

These are definitely not the perfect sites (some examples of poorly-sited US climate sites).

Danno

A detailed site on USA stations can be found here: http://surfacestations.org

Shannon would fit in well with some of them.

[sarcasm] Perhaps it's something to do with Shannon being another US military base [/sarcasm]

Villain

https://twitter.com/metoffice/status/1014886624465829889

I wonder if the same analysis was done in Shannon........

Ultimate Seduction

Villain wrote: »

https://twitter.com/metoffice/status/1014886624465829889

I wonder if the same analysis was done in Shannon........

Certainly should. No recordings from Shannon can be taken seriously.

Sully

More photos as needed


https://ibb.co/eED39y
https://ibb.co/eiauGd
https://ibb.co/kdSkNJ
https://ibb.co/nQ7kNJ
https://ibb.co/jurqpy
https://ibb.co/eXGO9y
https://ibb.co/dWPbUy
https://ibb.co/jTsVpy
https://ibb.co/dbvN2J
https://ibb.co/gjCfpy

10 just random locations but may help