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Shannon Airport synoptic weather station siting

  • 03-07-2018 11:01am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 19,146 ✭✭✭✭ Akrasia


    Shannon Airport has been one of the hottest weather stations over the course of this heatwave, but there has been some controversy surrounding how accurate it's readings are due to potential siting concerns.

    Can we use this thread to break down these concerns a bit more

    Gaoth Ladir posted a satellite image showing a location that seems to be very unsuitable for a synoptic weather station. However, the picture of the actual weather station on the Met Eireann website shows a different location on the other side of the airport.

    Location of weather station according to Gaoth Ladir
    454485.png

    Here's a clearer image provided by MJohnston via Bing Maps
    nNwBrC8.jpg

    And here's a picture of Shannon Airport taken in the 1950s for some context
    9e7b571e85d8b5da86d16a8521e677e4.jpg
    It shows that the car park near this site was there since at least the 1950s

    And here is the only picture of the actual weather station that I have seen

    shannonterm_build1.jpg

    The location that this picture is taken from appears to be different from the site indicated by Gaoth Ladir in his picture


    Can we just clarify where exactly the weather station actually is. The satellite images don't show a weather station but then the resolution isn't high enough to show something that small.

    Gaoth, have you been to the actual site yourself? Who told you that the weather station was at the location you indicated?

    I've sent a mail to Met Eireann looking for clarification on this but in the meantime, it would be great to clear this up once and for all.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭ Donegal Storm


    The perspective in that image would suggest that the station is landside, the whole area is a car park though so nowhere a weather station could realistically be placed. Plugging in the coordinates given here give a point in the middle of marshland as well!

    Can only assume they moved the station to the location in the images above?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭ Danno


    Akrasia wrote: »
    It shows that the car park near this site was there since at least the 1950s

    Totally incorrect.

    Here is the OSI aerial photography over the site from around 2005: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,537237,660858,11,0


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭ Danno


    Danno wrote: »
    Totally incorrect.

    Here is the OSI aerial photography over the site from around 2005: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,537237,660858,11,0

    In addition,

    The station was NOT at this site in the year 2000: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,537237,660858,11,4

    So, the station was moved to it's present location (if GL's assertion that this is the site is correct) sometime between 2001 and 2004 ~+/- a year.

    Why?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,665 ✭✭✭✭ JCX BXC


    Can we also clarify what effect the car park actually has on the weather station? I find that Shannon records temperatures remarkably similar to my own less accurate (Davis Vantage Vue) in West Clare. I'm not near any car parks, it's on the verge of 2 fields.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,146 ✭✭✭✭ Akrasia


    Right. I think I've found it.

    https://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/EINN gives a location of
    52.7020 -8.9248

    On Bing Aerial photographs, that location shows the image below
    5KemT1v.jpg

    exact location = 52.702024712808765,-8.918060994530936


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭ Rougies


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Right. I think I've found it.

    https://weather.gladstonefamily.net/site/EINN gives a location of
    52.7020 -8.9248

    On Bing Aerial photographs, that location shows the image below


    exact location = 52.702024712808765,-8.918060994530936


    I think you've found the anemometer site. As discussed on the other thread, there is no anemometer tower at the carpark site (tower must be 10m tall and there's no shadow), and often the anemometer is at a different location to the rest of the instruments. There doesn't seem to be any other instrument housings here, you would probably clearly see the white box of the stevenson's screen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,146 ✭✭✭✭ Akrasia


    what about here?

    https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=ec56dcc0-d4d7-4ac7-8664-d9934e4e7e46&cp=52.703638~-8.92306&lvl=18&style=h&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027
    This is also very close to those coordinates as provided on the GHCN and you can see two white boxes that could be stephenson screens. Dublin airport also seems to have two of these as well. Makes sense to have a backup.

    EIM00003962 52.7020 -8.9250 14.0 SHANNON 03962

    I don't know where Gaoth got his information that the station is near that car park. I can't see any sign of it on the pictures or any reference to this location in any official records.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭ Rougies


    Akrasia wrote: »
    what about here?

    https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=ec56dcc0-d4d7-4ac7-8664-d9934e4e7e46&cp=52.703638~-8.92306&lvl=18&style=h&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027
    This is also very close to those coordinates as provided on the GHCN and you can see two white boxes that could be stephenson screens. Dublin airport also seems to have two of these as well. Makes sense to have a backup.

    EIM00003962 52.7020 -8.9250 14.0 SHANNON 03962

    I don't know where Gaoth got his information that the station is near that car park. I can't see any sign of it on the pictures or any reference to this location in any official records.


    Maybe, there are a few places dotted around with white boxes, like the small circular area just to the to the NE of the possible anemometer.

    There are a few white boxes on the carpark site too, Gaoth Láidir usually has good info but you;re right it doesn't make sense to have it there so I'm not sure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,200 ✭✭✭ Gaoth Laidir


    I thought the site was where I indicated because of

    a) I remember hearing that it was located near the terminal building,
    b) the photo on the old met.ie website, showing the terminal in the close background
    b) that location is near enough to the coordinates on the met.ie site (52°41'31" N, 8°55'8" W),
    d) it looks like a station compound from aerial images (a couple of Stevenson Screens, datalogger, radiation sensors, etc.)
    e) I couldn't find any other location around the whole airport grounds that looked like a standard Met Éireann station compound. The only problem is I can't find the two circular rain guage pits that are visible at other stations (e.g. Cork Airport).

    The OSI map shows that the "Meterological Office" is a building further to the east end of the terminal complex (see below).

    454831.png

    454832.png

    The Google Roadmap shows the Met van parked at the building just across the road (east) of the building (below). I can't locate anything resembling a station in that vicinity, and in any case, it would be a totally unsuitable location, given the lack of open ground.

    454833.png

    I don't think the location shown by Akrasia is the station. It's too close to the runway, is too far away from the Met Éireann coordinates, and it, too, doesn't have any rain guages. I think it's the midpoint RVR sensor for Runway 24. You can see two more similar installations at the touchdown zones either end of the runway.

    The only place resembling a met station is that area I outlined, although I don't know why we can't see the rain gauges.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,033 ✭✭✭ Oneiric 3


    Maybe our 'on the spot' guy JCX can get down there and put this issue to bed? If I had a car myself I'd gladly take a spin down there and search out the location of the weather station.

    New Moon



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,200 ✭✭✭ Gaoth Laidir


    On closer inspection, plugging the exact coordinates into Google Maps gives the bus stop outside the terminal building, just opposite the Met Office there. So that's no good either...

    https://www.google.ie/maps/place/52%C2%B041'31.0%22N+8%C2%B055'08.0%22W/@52.6919444,-8.9210829,563m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d52.6919444!4d-8.9188889


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,200 ✭✭✭ Gaoth Laidir


    Oneiric 3 wrote: »
    Maybe our 'on the spot' guy JCX can get down there and put this issue to bed? If I had a car myself I'd gladly take a spin down there and search out the location of the weather station.

    I went there have a look myself a few months ago but there was no access to that carpark area from the main carpark. If I'd got out of the car maybe I could have seen better but I was in a flow of traffic at the time so couldn't have a good gawk at it.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sully


    I'm in the airport every day, can take a look if you like?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,200 ✭✭✭ Gaoth Laidir


    Sully wrote: »
    I'm in the airport every day, can take a look if you like?

    Do it and we'll all chip in for a breakfast roll for ya.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,146 ✭✭✭✭ Akrasia


    "Gaoth wrote:
    I don't think the location shown by Akrasia is the station. It's too close to the runway, is too far away from the Met Éireann coordinates, and it, too, doesn't have any rain guages. I think it's the midpoint RVR sensor for Runway 24. You can see two more similar installations at the touchdown zones either end of the runway.

    The only place resembling a met station is that area I outlined, although I don't know why we can't see the rain gauges.
    Its not much closer to the runway than the Dublin Airport site and it's pretty close to the location specified in the ghcn

    But I vote we wait for our roving reporter to scout the area :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,200 ✭✭✭ Gaoth Laidir


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Its not much closer to the runway than the Dublin Airport site and it's pretty close to the location specified in the ghcn

    But I vote we wait for our roving reporter to scout the area :)

    It's about 88 m from the runway, the Dublin station is 500 m from the end of the runway.

    The installation you highlighted is the midpoint RVR sensor. I'm 100% certain of it. Here's the airport diagram, showing it and the other two sensors (the kind of triangular icons).

    http://iaip.iaa.ie/iaip/Published Files/AIP Files/AD/Chart Files/EINN/EI_AD_2_EINN_24-1_en.pdf


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sully


    Do it and we'll all chip in for a breakfast roll for ya.

    I actually stumbled across the thread randomly but sure tell me what you want me to look for and where and I'll report back tomorrow


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,200 ✭✭✭ Gaoth Laidir


    Sully wrote: »
    I actually stumbled across the thread randomly but sure tell me what you want me to look for and where and I'll report back tomorrow

    If you could take a photo of what's on that little square of grass circled in blue over next to the golf course. We're looking for a selection of instruments, Stevenson screens, etc.

    454485.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,665 ✭✭✭✭ JCX BXC


    I've been there several times and never noticed a weather station anywhere. However I can say the photograph of the station is not the location where the car park is, most certainly not. The photo is south/sw of the airport terminal, the location beside the car park is east/north east of the terminal, and only the gates are visible from there. It's the location of the "Park4less" car park, in which I've actually been several times.

    Working everyday for the next while, so won't get up this week! Sully can check it out!


  • Registered Users Posts: 928 ✭✭✭ compsys


    At the 10pm reports, Dublin Airport is reporting 13c while Shannon is supposedly 22c!

    Can't see how Shannon can be that warm (also can't understand how DA is always so cold at night either but that's for a different thread I guess).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭ Donegal Storm


    My best guess is that the station was previously on what is now a car park here

    Screen_Shot_2018_07_03_at_22_27_56.png

    Looks like a terrible location for a station but it matches up with the thumbnail image

    shannonterm_build1.jpg

    Screen_Shot_2018_07_03_at_22_32_41.png

    https://goo.gl/maps/UaFjjvL7Amy

    OSI imagery from 2005 shows it was still grass then but has since been paved over.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,288 mickmackey1


    compsys wrote: »
    At the 10pm reports, Dublin Airport is reporting 13c while Shannon is supposedly 22c!

    Can't see how Shannon can be that warm (also can't understand how DA is always so cold at night either but that's for a different thread I guess).
    Well it was 26c at 9pm and I can confirm it's still ridiculously warm down Limerick way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭ Just Saying


    The area circled in blue is left of the 11th tee on the golf course.It is not near the main airport car park at all.I think the tarmac area is an old overflow car park.The road beside it is not accessible to the public I think...just airport security etc.The best way to access it would be to park in the golf club car park and walk across.


  • Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭ Just Saying


    I might have phrased that incorrectly.Its not far from the main airport car park but easiest access is from the golf course.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭ Rougies


    Good detective work there Donegal Storm, I'd 100% agree that's the location in the thumbnail image. Does that thicken the plot now, because it seems like they had no problem with a station near buildings and tarmac in the past.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,623 ✭✭✭ mrsoundie


    I was outside a few minutes ago to lock up the car and it is still very warm.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,619 ✭✭✭ Rougies


    mrsoundie wrote: »
    I was outside a few minutes ago to lock up the car and it is still very warm.


    Are you a golfer by any chance? :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,200 ✭✭✭ Gaoth Laidir


    My best guess is that the station was previously on what is now a car park here

    Screen_Shot_2018_07_03_at_22_27_56.png

    Looks like a terrible location for a station but it matches up with the thumbnail image

    shannonterm_build1.jpg

    Screen_Shot_2018_07_03_at_22_32_41.png

    https://goo.gl/maps/UaFjjvL7Amy

    OSI imagery from 2005 shows it was still grass then but has since been paved over.

    Well that seems to sort the thumbnail bit out, but we still don't know where it is now. Not sure why Met Éireann have the coordinates up at that bus stop near the terminal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭ gozunda


    Rougies wrote: »
    I think you've found the anemometer site. As discussed on the other thread, there is no anemometer tower at the carpark site (tower must be 10m tall and there's no shadow), and often the anemometer is at a different location to the rest of the instruments. There doesn't seem to be any other instrument housings here, you would probably clearly see the white box of the stevenson's screen.

    Anemometer location for shannon airport shown on map at following link c. 1979

    Do not see weather station site indicated ...


    http://www.limerickcity.ie/media/shannon042.pdf


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