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Not carrying a Driving license

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    #62
    bobbyss
    Registered Users Posts: 5,193 ✭✭✭bobbyss


    GM228 wrote: »
    Produce means show to the Garda your licence and allow them to read it, nothing says who can/can't hold it, but by refusing to allow them hold it it could be inferred that you are failing to allow them to read it properly, best to air on the side of caution.

    I wonder has there ever been a case around that?

    Surely a Garda does not have to physically hold the thing to be able to read it?

    Why wouldn't the law state clearly that you have to hand over possession of it to the Garda upon request and that would clarify everything?


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    #63
    Lmklad
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Lmklad


    bobbyss wrote: »
    GM228 wrote: »
    Produce means show to the Garda your licence and allow them to read it, nothing says who can/can't hold it, but by refusing to allow them hold it it could be inferred that you are failing to allow them to read it properly, best to air on the side of caution.

    I wonder has there ever been a case around that?

    Surely a Garda does not have to physically hold the thing to be able to read it?

    Why wouldn't the law state clearly that you have to hand over possession of it to the Garda upon request and that would clarify everything?

    I’d suggest it’s because the law was written in the ‘60’s before freeman issues and it wasn’t envisaged that a person would refuse to hand it over.


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    #64
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Lmklad wrote: »
    I’d suggest it’s because the law was written in the ‘60’s before freeman issues and it wasn’t envisaged that a person would refuse to hand it over.

    +1 something similar happened in respect of the obligation to stop your vehicle when indicated to do so by a Garda. In the 1961 RTA it simply said that you had to stop....

    109.—(1) A person driving a vehicle in a public place shall stop the vehicle on being so required by a member of the Garda Síochána.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/109/enacted/en/html#sec109

    which you could technically comply with by bringing your car to a halt and then promptly driving off. So in the 1968 RTA they added the following...

    and shall keep it stationary for such period as is reasonably necessary in order to enable such member to discharge his duties.


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    #65
    Esel
    Registered Users Posts: 22,034 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    A Garda or Customs Officer will not hand you their ID, they proffer it you - i.e. hold it in front of you so you can see/read it.

    Same should apply when producing your licence at the roadside imo. I won't be trying it though.

    Not your ornery onager



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    #66
    Lmklad
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Lmklad


    Esel wrote: »
    A Garda or Customs Officer will not hand you their ID, they proffer it you - i.e. hold it in front of you so you can see/read it.

    Same should apply when producing your licence at the roadside imo. I won't be trying it though.

    Because it is illegal for any person not a Garda to have a Garda id in their possession.


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    #67
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Esel wrote: »
    A Garda or Customs Officer will not hand you their ID, they proffer it you - i.e. hold it in front of you so you can see/read it.

    Same should apply when producing your licence at the roadside imo. I won't be trying it though.

    I can't see how you can compare the two situations. The Garda is a police officer, he/she can be trusted to examine your driving licence and to hand it back to you in one piece. I wouldn't be making the same prediction about the type of person who'd insist that the Garda hand over his ID card for inspection.


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    #68
    bobbyss
    Registered Users Posts: 5,193 ✭✭✭bobbyss


    coylemj wrote:
    I can't see how you can compare the two situations. The Garda is a police officer, he/she can be trusted to examine your driving licence and to hand it back to you in one piece. I wouldn't be making the same prediction about the type of person who'd insist that the Garda hand over his ID card for inspection.


    Are all gardai trustworthy though? Maybe some have internal investigations going on ?


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    #69
    Glass fused light
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Glass fused light


    Esel wrote: »
    A Garda or Customs Officer will not hand you their ID, they proffer it you - i.e. hold it in front of you so you can see/read it.

    Same should apply when producing your licence at the roadside imo. I won't be trying it though.

    The old licence is a leaflet style and has to be pulled out of the plastic cover and read across the front and the back. Even with the new ones like any document it can be forged or interfered with, by not legistating to allowing the officer to hold the document the opportunity to properly examine the document would not be available to the officer.
    It also has the handy advantage of allowing the Garda the ability of holding the licence in a comfortable position when taking details. Plus the driver had to remove a physical barrier ie a window and breath into the space which would offers the chance to catch the smell of drink or some drugs.


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    #70
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Esel wrote: »
    A Garda or Customs Officer will not hand you their ID, they proffer it you - i.e. hold it in front of you so you can see/read it.

    Same should apply when producing your licence at the roadside imo. I won't be trying it though.

    There's a big difference, a motorist must legally produce a licence when requested, a Guard* and Customs* officers are not legally required to do so.

    *Legally a non-uniforned Guard must produce ID only if you request so (and only in relation to matters under the Road Traffic Acts and the Offences Against The State Act 1939), does not apply to Gardaí in uniform.

    *Legally a Customs officer must produce a Revenue authorisation of powers document, again only if you request so, but not an ID.


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    #71
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    bobbyss wrote: »
    Are all gardai trustworthy though? Maybe some have internal investigations going on ?

    You'd ask a Garda if he/she is the subject of an internal investigation before allowing them to inspect your driving licence?


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    #72
    BaronVon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,647 ✭✭✭BaronVon


    GM228 wrote: »
    Generally they will test and then depending on the readings ask for a licence, if your between the lower and upper limit but can't then produce a licence you will be arrested on suspicion of drink driving. They usually do not ask for a licence at mandatory testing check points until you have a potential over the limit reading.

    At the roadside breath test, the option of Specified or Non-Specified driver has to be selected before test is performed, as there are different limits for each one. So normally the driver will be asked for his licence first, then the appropriate option will be selected on the handheld device, and the test will be performed.

    The machine will then give a pass or fail, it does not give a specific reading. Only back in the station for the evidential breath test, will an exact reading be given.

    If somebody doesn't have their licence at the side of the road, the will be treated as a Specified Driver, i.e. at the lower limit, until they prove otherwise by producing a valid licence. This can result in someone being arrested for blowing 12 microgrammes of alcohol (above the threshold for a specified driver, but below the threshold for a non specified driver) and then they will have to subsequently produce their licence to stop a prosecution from being initiated.

    So, it's best practice to carry your licence with you at all times, especially if you're going for just 1 pint!


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    #73
    BaronVon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,647 ✭✭✭BaronVon


    As regards the OP's query, I believe a direction was given not to prosecute drivers who did not have their licence on their person when the new amendment was introduced. It was expected this would be rescinded once the public had gotten in the habit of carrying their licences, but this has not yet happened AFAIK.

    As mentioned a demand can be made to produce the licence within 10 days, so most scenarios can be dealt with this way, except roadside breath tests, where there are different limits depending on the class of licence.


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    #74
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Esel wrote: »
    Same should apply when producing your licence at the roadside imo.
    ...why? :confused:

    As you point out, refusing to let them take it is just likely to "delay" you much longer than is otherwise necessary, but they could go nuclear on it and claim that by holding it you were not permitting them to verify its authenticity, or accurately read the information on it.

    But I'm still confused as to why you would prefer if the Garda couldn't take the licence to take down the details?


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    #75
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    infacteh wrote: »
    At the roadside breath test, the option of Specified or Non-Specified driver has to be selected before test is performed, as there are different limits for each one. So normally the driver will be asked for his licence first, then the appropriate option will be selected on the handheld device, and the test will be performed.

    I stand corrected, indeed my brother tells me they have dual level devices as you say and they pick the appropriate setting.


    infacteh wrote: »
    As regards the OP's query, I believe a direction was given not to prosecute drivers who did not have their licence on their person when the new amendment was introduced. It was expected this would be rescinded once the public had gotten in the habit of carrying their licences, but this has not yet happened AFAIK.

    As mentioned a demand can be made to produce the licence within 10 days, so most scenarios can be dealt with this way, except roadside breath tests, where there are different limits depending on the class of licence.

    They have been testing at lower limits for those who do not produce for years.


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    #76
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,907 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    coylemj wrote: »
    I can't see how you can compare the two situations. The Garda is a police officer, he/she can be trusted to examine your driving licence and to hand it back to you in one piece. I wouldn't be making the same prediction about the type of person who'd insist that the Garda hand over his ID card for inspection.

    If you can't handle a Garda's ID card how can you know they are a Garda so you have to hand them your licence? Uniforms and cars are easily faked, along with the ID which since no one knows what it looks like will never know if they are shown a real or fake Garda ID.


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    #77
    dense
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    Del2005 wrote: »
    If you can't handle a Garda's ID card how can you know they are a Garda so you have to hand them your licence? Uniforms and cars are easily faked, along with the ID which since no one knows what it looks like will never know if they are shown a real or fake Garda ID.


    You'll know by the funny accent and the complete lack of empathy when dealing with members of the public who are unused to being questioned by Gardai.

    Mod
    My experience over many years is that Gardaí do their duty with as much empathy as possible. We all have different accents.


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    #78
    RobbieMD
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭RobbieMD


    Del2005 wrote: »
    If you can't handle a Garda's ID card how can you know they are a Garda so you have to hand them your licence? Uniforms and cars are easily faked, along with the ID which since no one knows what it looks like will never know if they are shown a real or fake Garda ID.

    Why would you want to handle the ID then? If you can't tell a genuine one from a fake.


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    #79
    RobbieMD
    Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭RobbieMD


    dense wrote: »
    You'll know by the funny accent and the complete lack of empathy when dealing with members of the public who are unused to being questioned by Gardai.

    What's the funny accent? Is it the dub accent or the country accent or the newer members from various countries that are funny?


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    #80
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,907 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    RobbieMD wrote: »
    Why would you want to handle the ID then? If you can't tell a genuine one from a fake.

    If we could handle them then we could learn what a genuine looks and feels like.


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    #81
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Del2005 wrote: »
    If you can't handle a Garda's ID card how can you know they are a Garda so you have to hand them your licence? Uniforms and cars are easily faked, along with the ID which since no one knows what it looks like will never know if they are shown a real or fake Garda ID.

    Under the RTA, if the Garda is in uniform, you have no right to demand ID. Poster GM228 covered this in post #70,extract below ...
    GM228 wrote: »
    *Legally a non-uniforned Guard must produce ID only if you request so (and only in relation to matters under the Road Traffic Acts and the Offences Against The State Act 1939), does not apply to Gardaí in uniform.

    So if a Garda is in uniform and demands that you produce your driving licence, you have no right to demand ID....

    111.—Where, in exercise of any power or the performance of any duty conferred or imposed by or under this Act, any member of the Garda Síochána makes in a public place a request, requirement or demand of, or gives an instruction to, any person, such person shall not be bound to comply with the request, requirement, demand or instruction unless the member either—

    (a) is in uniform, or

    (b) produces, if requested by such person, an official identification card or such other evidence of his identity as may be prescribed.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/enacted/en/print.html


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    #82
    dense
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    coylemj wrote: »
    Under the RTA, if the Garda is in uniform, you have no right to demand ID. Poster GM228 covered this in post #70,extract below ...



    So if a Garda is in uniform and demands that you produce your driving licence, you have no right to demand ID....

    111.—Where, in exercise of any power or the performance of any duty conferred or imposed by or under this Act, any member of the Garda Síochána makes in a public place a request, requirement or demand of, or gives an instruction to, any person, such person shall not be bound to comply with the request, requirement, demand or instruction unless the member either—

    (a) is in uniform, or

    (b) produces, if requested by such person, an official identification card or such other evidence of his identity as may be prescribed.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/enacted/en/print.html




    According to that Act a driver is guilty of an offence only if they fail to produce a licence at a Garda station within 10 days if they're not carrying it with them at the time they're asked for it:



    Production of driving licence on demand by member of Garda Síochána.


    40.—(1) (a) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand, of a person driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle or accompanying pursuant to regulations under this Act the holder of a provisional licence while such holder is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, the production of a driving licence then having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle, and if such person refuses or fails to produce the licence there and then, he shall, unless within ten days after the date on which the production was demanded he produces such licence in person to a member of the Garda Síochána at a Garda Síochána station to be named by such person at the time at which the production was so demanded, be guilty of an offence.


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    #83
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,907 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    coylemj wrote: »
    Under the RTA, if the Garda is in uniform, you have no right to demand ID. Poster GM228 covered this in post #70,extract below ...



    So if a Garda is in uniform and demands that you produce your driving licence, you have no right to demand ID....

    111.—Where, in exercise of any power or the performance of any duty conferred or imposed by or under this Act, any member of the Garda Síochána makes in a public place a request, requirement or demand of, or gives an instruction to, any person, such person shall not be bound to comply with the request, requirement, demand or instruction unless the member either—

    (a) is in uniform, or

    (b) produces, if requested by such person, an official identification card or such other evidence of his identity as may be prescribed.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/enacted/en/print.html

    Which makes zero sense since its simple to fake a uniform and puts people at risk. But the law isn't supposed to be sensible.


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    #84
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    dense wrote: »
    According to that Act a driver is guilty of an offence only if they fail to produce a licence at a Garda station within 10 days if they're not carrying it with them at the time they're asked for it:

    The section you quoted includes mention of a 'provisional licence' which no longer exists. That act was passed in 1961, it has been amended multiple times since.


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    #85
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    dense wrote: »
    According to that Act a driver is guilty of an offence only if they fail to produce a licence at a Garda station within 10 days if they're not carrying it with them at the time they're asked for it:



    Production of driving licence on demand by member of Garda Síochána.


    40.—(1) (a) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand, of a person driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle or accompanying pursuant to regulations under this Act the holder of a provisional licence while such holder is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, the production of a driving licence then having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle, and if such person refuses or fails to produce the licence there and then, he shall, unless within ten days after the date on which the production was demanded he produces such licence in person to a member of the Garda Síochána at a Garda Síochána station to be named by such person at the time at which the production was so demanded, be guilty of an offence.

    As Coylemj has said the Act has been amended many times, S40 (1) as amended currently says:-
    40  (1) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand of a person —

    ( a ) driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, or

    ( b ) accompanying under regulations under this Act the holder of a learner permit while such holder is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle,

    the production to him or her for his or her inspection of a driving licence then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle. If the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence there and then, he or she commits an offence.


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    #86
    Odyssey 2005
    Registered Users Posts: 21,065 ✭✭✭✭Odyssey 2005


    I keep a photocopy of both sides of my license in both mine and Mrs.O's cars. Only ever stopped once and asked for the licence, produced the copy,explained that I don't know what car I'd be diving on any given day....go ahead. !
    Play a little ball and your on a winner.


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    #87
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,944 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    I currently have 11 ID, Bank, Membership, Season Ticket etc. cards in my compact wallet at the minute. Where's the difficulty in carrying your licence about your person at all times?


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    #88
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Eggs For Dinner wrote: »
    I currently have 11 ID, Bank, Membership, Season Ticket etc. cards in my compact wallet at the minute. Where's the difficulty in carrying your licence about your person at all times?

    The old licence doens't fit into a 'compact' wallet. Mine expires in 2019 so there's still lots of them out there.


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    #89
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,163 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    coylemj wrote: »
    The old licence doens't fit into a 'compact' wallet. Mine expires in 2019 so there's still lots of them out there.

    The problem is that to renew the licence, you have to get a PPS card.


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    #90
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    The problem is that to renew the licence, you have to get a PPS card.

    You don't need a PSC card for driving licence renewal, that plan was dropped.


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