Not carrying a Driving license

samach

Is it absolutely necessary to carry a driving license when driving on public roads. If I hold a valid driving license, but do not have it on me at the time when garda checks, is it an offence?

I was told by my insurance company that if you fail to produce a driving license, the Garda give you 5 days to produce it in a Garda station. (is it too late by that time and you have already committed the offence by not carrying it in the first place?)

randomrb

once you produce it at a garda station within the time given there is no offence

dobman88

I got pulled over last week in my car, didn't have my licence on me as I had left it in my work van. The Garda told me she'd give me a few days to produce but I should really have it with me in the car. Apparently if the traffic corps stopped me they wouldn't be so kind and I'd get a fine or points, can't remember which.

May have been scare tactics or something by her but that's what she said.

C3PO

I'm pretty sure that it is an offence not to carry your driving licence while you are driving! Citizens Information certainly think so - http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driver_licensing/full_driving_licence.html

Allinall

It is absolutely an offense not to carry your license whilst driving.

Requirement to carry driving licence while driving vehicle.

25.—The following section is inserted in the Principal Act in substitution for section 40 of that Act:
“40.—(1) (a) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand, of a person driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle or accompanying pursuant to regulations under this Act the holder of a provisional licence while such holder is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, the production to him of a driving licence then having effect and licensing the said person to drive the vehicle, and if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence there and then, he shall be guilty of an offence.

samach

randomrb wrote: »

once you produce it at a garda station within the time given there is no offence

Interesting...

I just searched and the 1994 road traffic act says its an offence. look at 40.—(1) here http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/7/section/25/enacted/en/html

Is there a new traffic act which makes this invalid?!?!

Hoagy

Seems to be an offence:

40.—(1) (a) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand, of a person driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle or accompanying pursuant to regulations under this Act the holder of a provisional licence while such holder is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, the production to him of a driving licence then having effect and licensing the said person to drive the vehicle, and if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence there and then, he shall be guilty of an offence.


(b) Where a person of whom the production of a driving licence is demanded under this section refuses or fails to produce the licence there and then, a member of the Garda Síochána may require the person to produce within 10 days after the date of the said requirement the licence in person to a member of the Garda Síochána at a Garda Síochána station to be named by the person at the time of the requirement and, if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence, he shall be guilty of an offence.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/7/section/25/enacted/en/html

I'd be guilty of not carrying mine around, it doesn't fit in the wallet.

I think the latest ones are smaller?

randomrb

(b) Where a person of whom the production of a driving licence is demanded under this section refuses or fails to produce the licence there and then, a member of the Garda Síochána may require the person to produce within 10 days after the date of the said requirement the licence in person to a member of the Garda Síochána at a Garda Síochána station to be named by the person at the time of the requirement and, if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence, he shall be guilty of an offence.

It is in the guards discretion but once they give you the option and you present it within the time there is no offence

randomrb

samach wrote: »

I(is it too late by that time and you have already committed the offence by not carrying it in the first place?)

Just to clarify my point was in relation to this part of OP's question. It is essentially in the guards discretion. If they give you ten days to present your licence and you comply it is not an offence. However if they are particularly difficult they can make it an offence straight away and not give you a chance.

samach

randomrb wrote: »

Just to clarify my point was in relation to this part of OP's question. It is essentially in the guards discretion. If they give you ten days to present your licence and you comply it is not an offence. However if they are particularly difficult they can make it an offence straight away and not give you a chance.

gotcha. Thanks for the clarification

dense

Allinall wrote: »

It is absolutely an offense not to carry your license whilst driving.

Requirement to carry driving licence while driving vehicle.

25.—The following section is inserted in the Principal Act in substitution for section 40 of that Act:
“40.—(1) (a) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand, of a person driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle or accompanying pursuant to regulations under this Act the holder of a provisional licence while such holder is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, the production to him of a driving licence then having effect and licensing the said person to drive the vehicle, and if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence there and then, he shall be guilty of an offence.

That's it there in a nutshell, a female member of AGS may use her discretion and ask the driver to produce it a station, whereas the legislation requires a male garda to have it produced there and then.



:P

Del2005

Hoagy wrote: »

Seems to be an offence:

40.—(1) (a) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand, of a person driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle or accompanying pursuant to regulations under this Act the holder of a provisional licence while such holder is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle, the production to him of a driving licence then having effect and licensing the said person to drive the vehicle, and if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence there and then, he shall be guilty of an offence.


(b) Where a person of whom the production of a driving licence is demanded under this section refuses or fails to produce the licence there and then, a member of the Garda Síochána may require the person to produce within 10 days after the date of the said requirement the licence in person to a member of the Garda Síochána at a Garda Síochána station to be named by the person at the time of the requirement and, if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence, he shall be guilty of an offence.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/7/section/25/enacted/en/html

I'd be guilty of not carrying mine around, it doesn't fit in the wallet.

I think the latest ones are smaller?

So does this mean that you don't have to produce if you are accompanying a Learners Permit holder and a Garda requests your licence?

Claw Hammer

In some countries, if a driver does not have a licence when one is demanded by the police, the driver is told to get out of the car. The car is taken away by the police and will only be returned to the driver when he shows up with the licence and pays the appropriate charge for storage. The nonsense that's tolerated in this country with 10 days to produce and case being struck out when people show up in court with licences is ridiculous. It wastes police time and taxpayer's money for absolutely no good reason.

GM228

dense wrote: »

That's it there in a nutshell, a female member of AGS may use her discretion and ask the driver to produce it a station, whereas the legislation requires a male garda to have it produced there and then.



:P

Legislation recognises gender equality

Anywhere you see "him", "her", "he", "she" etc, also means the opposite sex.

fritzelly

I'm surprised by this - always thought you had some time to produce it. Would hate to meet a narky garda when I had forgotten it.

GM228

fritzelly wrote: »

I'm surprised by this - always thought you had some time to produce it. Would hate to meet a narky garda when I had forgotten it.

That is at the discretion of the Guard weather or not to allow you 10 days to produce, most afford this option but they don't have to.

dense

GM228 wrote: »

That is at the discretion of the Guard weather or not to allow you 10 days to produce, most afford this option but they don't have to.

Any idea why the discretionary option was left in?
It causes some confusion as can be seen here.



I wonder was it intended to be revoked at some point?

coylemj

dense wrote: »

Any idea why the discretionary option was left in?
It causes some confusion as can be seen here.

There are potentially two distinct offences....

1. Not carrying a valid driving licence when stopped by a Garda i.e. not being able to produce on the spot.

2. Not being the holder of a current driving licence - this is regardless of where the physical licence is at the time you are pulled over.

So if you can't produce the licence on the spot but you do have the licence at home, giving you the option to produce it allows you to avoid being summonsed for offence #2 above.

And as posters have pointed out, a lot of Gardai will overlook the fact that you didn't have the licence on you when you were stopped if you manage to produce a valid licence within 10 days at a Garda station nominated by you.

GM228

dense wrote: »

Any idea why the discretionary option was left in?
It causes some confusion as can be seen here.



I wonder was it intended to be revoked at some point?

It makes sense to have it there as it gives people a chance to produce and also cuts out a lot of unnecessary court time.

I doubt it, the requirement was first introduced in 1933 (was then 5 days) and increased to 10 days in 1961 and has stayed in legislation through several amendments of the appropriate section the last being 2011.

Such an important lawful request will never be repealed, to do so would create a massive headache for the courts system.

fritzelly

GM228 wrote: »

It makes sense to have it there as it gives people a chance to produce and also cuts out a lot of unnecessary court time.

I doubt it, the requirement was first introduced in 1933 (was then 5 days) and increased to 10 days in 1961 and has stayed in legislation through several amendments of the appropriate section the last being 2011.

Such an important lawful request will never be repealed, to do so would create a massive headache for the courts system.

Why not make it clearer that you can have upto 10 days to produce it. As it stands now the 10 days is if the garda is in a good mood

allthedoyles

I was stopped recently and was asked to produce licence . I handed it over , but the Garda did not look at it . He must have been just testing me to see if I had it with me .


Then I had to blow in the breathalyser next.

GM228

fritzelly wrote: »

Why not make it clearer that you can have upto 10 days to produce it. As it stands now the 10 days is if the garda is in a good mood

Why make it clearer, it's discretionary.

You are supposed to carry your licence with you at all times, that's what needs to be made clearer.

gizmo555

allthedoyles wrote: »

I was stopped recently and was asked to produce licence . I handed it over , but the Garda did not look at it . He must have been just testing me to see if I had it with me .


Then I had to blow in the breathalyser next.

That may have been because if you don't have your driving licence with you when you're stopped, you are tested at the lower alcohol limit which applies to learner drivers or professional drivers, e.g.,

http://www.mayonews.ie/news/16987-valid-license-would-have-prevented-driving-ban-in-drink-driving-case

bobbysands81

Claw Hammer wrote: »

In some countries, if a driver does not have a licence when one is demanded by the police, the driver is told to get out of the car. The car is taken away by the police and will only be returned to the driver when he shows up with the licence and pays the appropriate charge for storage. The nonsense that's tolerated in this country with 10 days to produce and case being struck out when people show up in court with licences is ridiculous. It wastes police time and taxpayer's money for absolutely no good reason.

You say nonsense, I say common sense.

GM228

gizmo555 wrote: »

That may have been because if you don't have your driving licence with you when you're stopped, you are tested at the lower alcohol limit which applies to learner drivers or professional drivers, e.g.,

http://www.mayonews.ie/news/16987-valid-license-would-have-prevented-driving-ban-in-drink-driving-case

The lower limits only apply if you actually don't have a licence, if you subsequently produced a valid full licence which you held at the time the *lower limit does not apply.

*Unless you are a novice driver.

TheChizler

GM228 wrote: »

The lower limits only apply if you actually don't have a licence, if you subsequently produced a valid licence which you held at the time the lower limit does not apply.

Are the limits for being arrested the same for learners and fulls? Wouldn't they have to proceed (at the time) as if the lower limit applied? It's fine if you can fix it after but still a lot of hassle to go through.

bobbyss

What does 'produce' it mean? Does the garda have to have it in his/her possession ? Is it sufficient for you to hold it and they to read it? Can they demand to hold it? Who owns it?

GM228

TheChizler wrote: »

Are the limits for being arrested the same for learners and fulls? Wouldn't they have to proceed (at the time) as if the lower limit applied? It's fine if you can fix it after but still a lot of hassle to go through.

No the limits are lower for learner, professional, novice and those who don't have a licence for the vehicle concerned.

The last one especially can catch a few people out, you could still have a full B licence for exampleand be found driving a category which you don't have, you are then subject to the lower limits, the BE licence is where a few people have been caught out with this one.

GM228

bobbyss wrote: »

What does 'produce' it mean? Does the garda have to have it in his/her possession ? Is it sufficient for you to hold it and they to read it? Can they demand to hold it? Who owns it?

Produce means show to the Garda your licence and allow them to read it, nothing says who can/can't hold it, but by refusing to allow them hold it it could be inferred that you are failing to allow them to read it properly, best to air on the side of caution.

TheChizler

GM228 wrote: »

No the limits are lower for learner, professional, novice and those who don't have a licence for the vehicle concerned.

So the lower limits apply even if you have a license but can't produce it immediately.

Allthedoyles situation could have been them checking which licence they had to know which limit to test at.

GM228

TheChizler wrote: »

So the lower limits apply even if you have a license but can't produce it immediately.

Allthedoyles situation could have been them checking which licence they had to know which limit to test at.

No, production or not has no bearing on the limits.

The limits are based on the type of licence you hold at the time, not weather or not it is in your possession at the time.

mvl

samach wrote: »

I was told by my insurance company that if you fail to produce a driving license, the Garda give you 5 days to produce it in a Garda station.

Such statement from an insurance company seems odd to me (am I the only one ?!?)

Guess conversation with insurance company staff is recorded (same as all other conversations with them) -> this might be handy if you have to go back to tell them off (sic!)

GM228

mvl wrote: »

samach wrote: »

I was told by my insurance company that if you fail to produce a driving license, the Garda give you 5 days to produce it in a Garda station.

Such statement from an insurance company seems odd to me (am I the only one ?!?)

Not really, insurance companies say many things.

A classic case of the person on the other end of the line giving sound legal advice. :pac:

dense

GM228 wrote: »

The lower limits only apply if you actually don't have a licence, if you subsequently produced a valid full licence which you held at the time the *lower limit does not apply.

*Unless you are a novice driver.

The lower limits also apply to holders of professional category licences regardless of the vehicle being driven at the time of being stopped.

TheChizler

GM228 wrote: »

No, production or not has no bearing on the limits.

The limits are based on the type of licence you hold at the time, not weather or not it is in your possession at the time.

OK so you get stopped and don't have your license on you to produce and can't prove which one you have. You blow over the limit that would result in arrest for a novice driver, but lower than that for a full driver. What happens?

randomrb

GM228 wrote: »

Produce means show to the Garda your licence and allow them to read it, nothing says who can/can't hold it, but by refusing to allow them hold it it could be inferred that you are failing to allow them to read it properly, best to air on the side of caution.

s25 of the 1994 act


(3) Where a person of whom the production of a driving licence is demanded or required under this section refuses or fails so to produce the licence or produces the licence but refuses or fails to permit the member of the Garda Síochána to whom it is produced to read the licence, the member may demand of the person his name and address and, if the person refuses or fails to give to the member his name and address or gives to the member a name or address which is false or misleading, he shall be guilty of an offence.

(4) A member of the Garda Síochána may arrest without warrant—

(a) a person who pursuant to this section produces a driving licence to the member but refuses or fails to permit the member to read it, or

(b) a person who, when his name and address is lawfully demanded of him by the member under this section, refuses or fails to give to the member his name and address or gives to the member a name or address which the member reasonably believes to be false.

GM228

dense wrote: »

The lower limits also apply to holders of professional category licences regardless of the vehicle being driven at the time of being stopped.

Incorrect, it only applies if they are driving the appropriate vehicle at the time, for example a category D holder is subject to the lower limit if driving a category D vehicle, but not if driving a category B vehicle.

GM228

TheChizler wrote: »

OK so you get stopped and don't have your license on you to produce and can't prove which one you have. You blow over the limit that would result in arrest for a novice driver, but lower than that for a full driver. What happens?

You can be arrested on suspicion of drink driving if they believe you are a novice driver, they will establish what type of licence you hold though quick enough.

Claw Hammer

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You say nonsense, I say common sense.

What is common sense about guards in a station having to note the production of a licence, another guard having to check if the licence was produced, a court clerk having to issue a summons, a guard having to go to court because of the non-production only to have the charge struck out when the idiot driver turns up with his licence? Nobody should be driving a car without having their license about them.

coylemj

Claw Hammer wrote: »

What is common sense about guards in a station having to note the production of a licence, another guard having to check if the licence was produced, a court clerk having to issue a summons, a guard having to go to court because of the non-production only to have the charge struck out when the idiot driver turns up with his licence? Nobody should be driving a car without having their license about them.

It's been the way of the world for years now. If your tax and insurance are in order, the licence is considered a relatively minor matter (provided you're not disqualified) so even if you forget to produce it within 10 days, get summonsed and show a valid licence to the prosecuting Garda in the courtroom, judges tend to dismiss the summons for non-production of the licence.

Part of the reason judges are lenient on that specific summons (when everything else is in order) is that in a lot of cases, the driver did produce the licence at the Garda station but gets summonsed anyway, it's not always the driver's fault. Your typical judge is aware of this so in order to head off an objection from the driver if he attempts to fine him for non-production, the safest option is to dismiss.

Claw Hammer

coylemj wrote: »

It's been the way of the world for years now. If your tax and insurance are in order, the licence is considered a relatively minor matter (provided you're not disqualified) so even if you forget to produce it within 10 days, get summonsed and show a valid licence to the prosecuting Garda in the courtroom, judges tend to dismiss the summons for non-production of the licence.

Part of the reason is that in a lot of cases, the driver did produce the licence at the Garda station but gets summonsed anyway, it's not always the driver's fault that he gets summonsed for non-production. Your typical judge is aware of this so in order to head off an objection from the driver if he attempts to fine him for non-production, the safest option is to dismiss.

That is why it would be far better to insist that people have licences on them, end of story. No licence, get out of the car and come back with the licence.

coylemj

Claw Hammer wrote: »

That is why it would be far better to insist that people have licences on them, end of story. No licence, get out of the car and come back with the licence.

A woman on the school run with a car load of kids? Someone driving his elderly mother to a funeral?

We don't live in a police state. People expect the cops to exercise discretion and most of the time, they do. Long may it continue.

Claw Hammer

coylemj wrote: »

A woman on the school run with a car load of kids? Someone driving his elderly mother to a funeral?

We don't live in a police state. People expect the cops to exercise discretion and most of the time, they do. Long may it continue.

What is to stop the woman carrying her licence, for the guy with the elderly mother? It's always these tug of the heart string cases that are cited when there is any attempt to have a rational regulations. I walked to school when I was a kid. A mother should be setting an example to her kids. She should not be committing an offence or offences by bringing them to school. The elderly mother should have brought her son up the carrier's driving licence and obey the law so if she doesn't make a funeral, it serves her right.

dense

GM228 wrote: »

Incorrect, it only applies if they are driving the appropriate vehicle at the time, for example a category D holder is subject to the lower limit if driving a category D vehicle, but not if driving a category B vehicle.

Thanks for that correction, the instructors at annual professional driver competency classes always make a point of saying it applies regardless of the vehicle being driven.



Someone in authority is obviously telling them this as it's usually beyond their abilities to figure something like that out for themselves.

jimmycrackcorm

coylemj wrote:

A woman on the school run with a car load of kids? Someone driving his elderly mother to a funeral?

We don't live in a police state. People expect the cops to exercise discretion and most of the time, they do. Long may it continue.

Customs do that if you're caught driving with green diesel or in a car with no Vrt paid .

In fact, an episode of stop, search, seize showed exactly that with a father bringing kids to school.

So we do indeed live in a customs state...

TheChizler

GM228 wrote: »

You can be arrested on suspicion of drink driving if they believe you are a novice driver, they will establish what type of licence you hold though quick enough.

That's all I was getting at, that they will err on the side of caution and apply the lower limit until they establish what license the driver holds. So they might have been looking for the license in order to figure out which limit to test to as another poster suggested.

GM228

TheChizler wrote: »

That's all I was getting at, that they will err on the side of caution and apply the lower limit until they establish what license the driver holds. So they might have been looking for the license in order to figure out which limit to test to as another poster suggested.

Generally they will test and then depending on the readings ask for a licence, if your between the lower and upper limit but can't then produce a licence you will be arrested on suspicion of drink driving. They usually do not ask for a licence at mandatory testing check points until you have a potential over the limit reading.

tuisginideach

A friend always carried his licence in his car. Car stolen - licence in it. Caused huge problems, among them being that he couldn't rent a replacement car without it.

GM228

dense wrote: »

Thanks for that correction, the instructors at annual professional driver competency classes always make a point of saying it applies regardless of the vehicle being driven.



Someone in authority is obviously telling them this as it's usually beyond their abilities to figure something like that out for themselves.

Or perhaps they are thinking that because most guides just say professional drivers (i.e drivers with category C, D etc) and they assume that means you are subject to the lower limit simply due to the fact you have a certain category on your licence.

Claw Hammer

tuisginideach wrote: »

A friend always carried his licence in his car. Car stolen - licence in it. Caused huge problems, among them being that he couldn't rent a replacement car without it.

A bit stupid?

Lmklad

The 10 days discretionary production is good law and the guard must give oral evidence in court as one of the offences is failure to produce.

It’s a sad state that we still have to power on the books, pop over to the UK and most of the traffic police have the onboard instant access computer with direct links to the drivers licence issuing authority. It makes the production section unnecessary as the officer can see, at the time of stopping, the type of licence held and any disqualifications etc, at a glance.